Sleepy Hollow EMTs at odds with police chief over stun-gun case

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

GOTCHA, so the question is why didn't SHVAC inform SHPD of this? anyways, i feel very sorry for all parties involed, including this kid because he will end up in the middle of PD and VAC politics...which we all know can be VERY brutal

We wouldn't be talking about this if the KID wasn't a you know what. Screw the kid he got what he deserves and I bet that is not that last time you hear of him involved with the law.

Take CENTRAL DISPATCHING PLEASE

[OnTheWheel 43]

THANKS. you're right, not all of the info may be true. but the truth is the kid is 16 and he cannot RMA w/o parent or gardian concent...the PD really has no say. the SHVAC members and/or M1 to cover themselves, (in my opinion) they should have overridden the PD.

I understand the whole consent thing and not being able to consent etc. but do you really believe you would remove a person who is in police custody to get them checked out? I wouldnt be the one trying to take one of my prisoners by force! This is something that is being delt with the right way, after the incident instead of in the middle of the street in a shouting match. Maybe some good will come out of this and policies will change, if they need to change that is!

[EMTbravo 312]

Sorry to interrupt this discussion. I'd like to set something straight here.

I just recieved an email from a disgruntled member about this thread. He feels that I dictate which departments can be "bashed". The member even went as far as to call me an "ego-maniac".

I spend numerous hours and thousands of dollars to provide the forum and make NO PROFIT doing so. I do it because I have seen the positive effect that the forum has had and the community wants it. I also believe it's a valuable tool for change for those with an open mind. But some people don't care, don't want to contribute to the forum, just make stuff up about me and whine and complain. I know many people don't like the way I run this forum, and have many misconstrued perceptions- and make accusations when they have no idea what is actually going on. If you want to complain about discussions, why not get involved in them and actually contribute instead of throwing hate at me?

Sleepy Hollow emergency services has gotten a lot of bad press over the past few years-and much of it has been discussed on here. It's sad, because there's a lot of good they do that the media could care less about. I think that it's BS that these incidents overshadow everything else. Sleepy Hollow EMS has become one of the premier VAC's in the county, Sleepy Hollow FD has some very well trained and aggressive members, an active marine unit that assists at numerous Hudon River incidents each year, has to deal with a transient population that speaks a different language and doesn't always abide by the law, making incidents even tougher for SH emergency services members. Then, there's the tension with the PD. The guys at Sleepy Hollow don't deserve the image cast on them by mainly The Journal News and News 12. They're a great group of guys like many agencies in this county, and don't deserve this.

The Sleepy Hollow event was published in the newspaper. Therefore, I'm going to let the members discuss the situation. Hopefully, something can be learned on all ends from the thread. Unfortunetly, there are some that go into "defensive mode", and instead of making their case with facts or knowledge, they sit there and whine that this thread exists. People are going to talk about it, whether it's on the forum or not, and the forum allows those involved to actually straighten out the published report, or, whether they want to have an open mind or not…..to learn from other's experiences or views. Maybe something can improve based on this incident, or be done better next time. We learn from our good jobs, and our bad jobs.

I have no agenda, other then running a forum that's somewhat constructive and positive, where members are respectful to one another. I want the forum to be used as a tool to better things, and sometimes it's a fine line- and obivously no matter what I do people still complain and hold me personally responsible. I'm tired of defending myself against lies and misconstrued perceptions.

It depresses me that people are more interested in covering up the problem or throwing blame then actually resolving the issue.

This thread should explain my new views in running this forum:

EMTBravo: Change Starts Here

[Guest feraldan]

I don't see any bashing here, just reasonable discussion.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I would have the MEDIC come to HQ and pull out the barbs, put some antiseptic on the LITTLE WOUNDS that is causes and complete my paperwork.

Oneeye...if it were only that simple. I wrote a policy to assist our local PD who just put them out on the road for us to be able to remove the barbs. Our medical director loves it (he is very progressive), but when discussed with the region and DOH....lol. Protocol prohibits the removal of penetrating objects by EMS personnel. I can do it in my capacity as a tactical medic because there is absolutely little to no oversight of those operating as such but if I am at work under my agency code its a no no. Ridiculous.

Feraldan..just to point out, I am not trying to give you a hard time bro. I'm just making a comment off your point. I have only had an officer take care of an RMA for a 17 year old once and I wasn't totally involved because to me it was a no medical needed but my EMT partner insisted we had to get an RMA. The officer agreed and handled it. Most will refuse if it is discussed with them. I work on the 10 minute rule. If the parent can't be there within 10 minutes its a transport.

As far as the other comment about the kid. We all know he got mouthy and he got welded. I don't know how many of you saw his interview on News12 but its not like he was 12, nor was he small. At least there will be another generation of people on the street that will hear what its like and are more likely to comply.

[RescueKujo 130]

Seth,

Please do not let these naysayers get to you. Anybnody, with any agency, doesn't want the bad things from that agency aired in public. It's just natural as a human. It takes a lot of restraint to allow open discussion of the agency you bust your butt for.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Whoever emailed or PM'd Seth. Get a grip and try reading objectively instead of what you want to see. There are arguments for both sides of the issue and some good discussion going on here.

LOL. I guess I will never be able to get some over the "bashing" or "monday morning quarterbacking" ridiculousness that chokes emergency services from learning from itself and even being metaphorically smacked in the face to realize wrongdoings. Praise away candy eaters, praise away and turn a blind eye to real issues.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Oneeye...if it were only that simple. I wrote a policy to assist our local PD who just put them out on the road for us to be able to remove the barbs. Our medical director loves it (he is very progressive), but when discussed with the region and DOH....lol. Protocol prohibits the removal of penetrating objects by EMS personnel. I can do it in my capacity as a tactical medic because there is absolutely little to no oversight of those operating as such but if I am at work under my agency code its a no no. Ridiculous.

What if the penetrating object is in their cheek? LOL I guess in my world you could pull them out. Maybe even twist them a little more.

[Guest]

What if the penetrating object is in their cheek? LOL I guess in my world you could pull them out. Maybe even twist them a little more.

nice

[calhobs 110]

Keep this in mind folks of course there is alot we cant talk about, and lot that has not been mentioned in the newspapers, but I assure you after SHAC spoke to many other higher ups in the EMS sections, trust me when I say we are in the right on this one.

[Guest]

I understand the whole consent thing and not being able to consent etc. but do you really believe you would remove a person who is in police custody to get them checked out? I wouldnt be the one trying to take one of my prisoners by force! This is something that is being delt with the right way, after the incident instead of in the middle of the street in a shouting match. Maybe some good will come out of this and policies will change, if they need to change that is!

well i hope the PD in my town would understand if we say the kid (especially a 16 y/o) should be checked out, they would respect our decision. the kid's going to jail, no doubt about that...but EMS has a job to do also.

[OnTheWheel 43]

well i hope the PD in my town would understand if we say the kid (especially a 16 y/o) should be checked out, they would respect our decision. the kid's going to jail, no doubt about that...but EMS has a job to do also.

I absolutely agree with you, whe should look to you to help us make medical decisions, we may not always agree but to excersise a little caution and just get a check up, if its feasible at the time, then so be it. My comment was made because I saw the thread going in the "take him from police custody because we'll get sued if he doesnt get checked out" direction, I hope we all know thats just not going to happen, the taking someone from custody part. Like I said, all parties involved need to walk away and talk about it back at HQ or to supervisors at later time.

[Guest]

seth,

im sorry people make you go through this junk and put you down. im sure this site is like a child to you and when people bash it you take it personally...and so would i. you have THOUSANDS of members who respect EVERYTHING you do here. don't let the few knock you down!! this site has already put you in the history books as far as im concerned!! (and no im not brown-nosing, i mean it) even if i had to pay to be a member of this site, i'd pay for it (no ideas! lol)

KEEP DOING WHAT YOU DO, AND DON"T CHANGE IT FOR A SINGLE SOUL!!

Being pissed, upset, sadened, happy, excited and optimistic is what this forum is all about....

Edited September 6, 2007 by vacguy

[ex-commish 490]

We wouldn't be talking about this if the KID wasn't a you know what. Screw the kid he got what he deserves and I bet that is not that last time you hear of him involved with the law.

That's the problem today...the real issue isn't being addressed and this is no way any reflection on SHVAC as I know some people there and they are a good organization but the issue is a perp broke the law, got caught, resisted arrest and pushed a cop. Maybe the police should of allowed him to be treated but again let SHVAC and SHPD work this out.

[Guest]

I absolutely agree with you, whe should look to you to help us make medical decisions, we may not always agree but to excersise a little caution and just get a check up, if its feasible at the time, then so be it. My comment was made because I saw the thread going in the "take him from police custody because we'll get sued if he doesnt get checked out" direction, I hope we all know thats just not going to happen, the taking someone from custody part. Like I said, all parties involved need to walk away and talk about it back at HQ or to supervisors at later time.

i would never challange a police officer (especially on scene), but i do hope they would respect our opinion. but this also has to to with the relationships EMS has with their local police officers. i think EMS should have a good relationship with each of the OFFICERS on an induvidual basis.

[Guest]

That's the problem today...the real issue isn't being addressed and this is no way any reflection on SHVAC as I know some people there and they are a good organization but the issue is a perp broke the law, got caught, resisted arrest and pushed a cop. Maybe the police should of allowed him to be treated but again let SHVAC and SHPD work this out.

as mentioned, those series of events you mentioned MAY or MAY NOT be true. the kid screwed up, got caught thats really all we can say. i still will say i'll feel bad for the kid if he gets in the middle of the political mess

[20y2 43]

Per NYS Penal Law, a 16 Y/O is an adult. As for NYS DOH he isn't, but he was not primarily a patient at that point in time, he was a prisoner. As such, as the police chief he was, in effect, this 16 y/o's 'guardian'. If SHPD's policy is not to transport all single shot Tazer prisoners, then so be it, this really isn't a big deal. The media, the perp and his parents are the ones that are making a non-issue an issue.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Per NYS Penal Law, a 16 Y/O is an adult. As for NYS DOH he isn't, but he was not primarily a patient at that point in time, he was a prisoner. As such, as the police chief he was, in effect, this 16 y/o's 'guardian'. If SHPD's policy is not to transport all single shot Tazer prisoners, then so be it, this really isn't a big deal. The media, the perp and his parents are the ones that are making a non-issue an issue.

Just as I was getting at! Beautiful!

[khas143 13]

Just as I was getting at! Beautiful!

That is exactly it. Even at 16, once you are in police custody even a parent or guardian cannot RMA for you because as was said, the PD is for all intensive purposes, the guardian of the prisoner. That being said, I most certainly would have a P.O. or higher sign the RMA to cover EMS's butt but there is nothing that can be done by the EMS crew. (Ex. - to "override" the P.D.)

Edited September 6, 2007 by khas143

[Remember585 815]

If EMS is dispatched at the request of the PD, then PD has the right to cancel the request - right? Aside from my personal opinions of Chief Warren and how I think he handled this, as far as EMS should be concerned they covered their tails on the PCR - it's too bad the "supporters" of that mutt don't realize EMS did nothing wrong, nor did the PD (as it seems right now) and that this "kid" posed a threat to the arresting officers so he was subdued.

Paper makes money selling stories that appeal to the public, period.

Hey, at least they didn't shoot him.....

[Oswegowind 17]

I think that this whole taser job is getting so much press here and in the local media because it is the first time that I have heard of someone being tased in Westchester. Maybe I am wrong, but they do not report everytime a perp get sprayed with pepper spray, nor do they get taken to the hospital on the regular as a result of such, at least not immediately. The taser is considered "less than lethal" just as the OC Spray is, just the taser has the barbs instead of a liquid spray. The barbs sometimes don't even pierce the skin, depending on clothing, and it will still work effectively. Officers that are assigned tasers, should be trained as EMT's as well or at least have first aid training and know how to remove a barb. As well, the local EMS jurisdiction should know what they may encounter in their area and have special training to be ready for such events. This is not an ALS call in any way!! The paramedic really shouldn't even be dispatched unless their is a better reason, like trouble breathing as a result. When a perp gets sprayed, after they begin to comply, you can give them one of those wet dressings that relieve the pain of said...Same idea here!

As for penetrating injuries...this should not be considered in that evolution. If you came upon a drug overdose and the "victim" had a needle sticking in their arm (penetrating) would you remove it or would you leave it there as a danger to you? I would pull it out and put it in a sharps container, you don't want no heroin OD waking up and using it as a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Barbs go into the first layer of skin and should be easy to get out...similar to a fish hook.

[gpdexplorer 46]

I find it hard to believe that Chief Warren didn't realize that no paramedic was present. SHAC is a great agency with a great group of volunteers who dedicate countless hours to their community, pretty sure he's met them quite a few times and knows that they aren't medics. Also years ago, SHPD, under Chief Warren, has several of their PO's certified as EMT-B's in order to assist SHAC in their difficult years. I would think that he knows that SHAC is a BLS agency. Guys, stay strong.

[Guest]

This is not an ALS call in any way!! The paramedic really shouldn't even be dispatched unless their is a better reason, like trouble breathing as a result.

in mount pleasant it is policy that a BLS bus and Medic respond to every request for an ambulance. you cannot request medic only nor can you request a BLS bus only for an E911 call.

people seem to have their own opinions about this policy, but it is what it is...

[calhobs 110]

I wonder where some of you people are getting some of this information from, lets start here. SHPD protocol for a teaser is to call the Paramedic for evalution not BLS, which was never done(as mentioned in the article). Thats why here in Sleepy we are not trained to remove the barbs. Second of all there is no mention really in the article that the pt was going to the hosptial because of the barbs, maybe it was due to chief complant of neck and back injuries (as mentioned in article), what the article does not mention is how or why he suffered those injuries. Some things to think about. As I said in my last post many things not mentioned and many things cant be talked about. But here at SHAC we are very confident with the way we handled ourselves, and thanks for the support from all of you.

[Truck4 48]

Why go to the media and not only make statements, but it seems that the PCR was given to the reporter. Maybe this could have been handled differently? The media is NOT your friend.

[EXDC203 38]

Can Police officer tell the ambulance to transport to the police station? If he is under arrest its the PD's responsability to transport. I think the Chief of PD has put the ambulance corp. and the town who rely on it in jepordy.

[20y2 43]

Can Police officer tell the ambulance to transport to the police station? If he is under arrest its the PD's responsability to transport. I think the Chief of PD has put the ambulance corp. and the town who rely on it in jepordy.

Can he? No, but I think that EMS handled a very difficult situation as well as they could. There was no ill-will involved in this entire incident from either PD or EMS's part.

[MoFire390 118]

If you all really think about it, it all comes back to how the media found out. im sure stuff like this happens all over the country and yet because PD was only doing their job and the EMT's where doing their job they are the ones getting critized by the media. Talk about making a criminal a perfect angel!! Yes, I know that I contradicted myself im my previous statement about it being on angency's fault, but after reading everyone elses oppions it made me start thinking. If this "kid" didnt have a guilty consenious then maybe this would have never of happened, but it did.

"We all learn from everyone ones mistakes" is what I was told by one of my FF1 instructors. So if your taking offense to this thread don't we are all learning from you guys that should be a privilage. We are not "bashing" anyone.

BE SAFE EVERYONE!!!

[Monty 35]

Why go to the media and not only make statements, but it seems that the PCR was given to the reporter. Maybe this could have been handled differently? The media is NOT your friend.

I may have missed it in the thread as I read through - but I believe it is only assumption that the PCR was given to the media by the VAC. Maybe it came from another source? Maybe the contents were paraphrased to the media, again by someone other than the VAC.

[Monty 35]

What if the penetrating object is in their cheek? LOL I guess in my world you could pull them out. Maybe even twist them a little more.

mmm, which cheek are you talking about Or are you just turning the other cheek?