Fire Tactics

[Guest]

Your FD is dispatched to a reported stucture fire. On arrivial you find a 40x100

4 story apt building. Fire is blowing out the windows of the 3rd floor of the number 1 and 4 side. The building is self evacuating except for the people asking for help on the 4th floor windows on the number 2 side.

your officer on the 1st in engine what do you do ? no IC on scene

your officer on the 1st in truck co what do you do? no IC on scene

Your IC after these operations have begun what do you do?

only descibe how your FD will respond and with what resources. Just to make it interesting your initial attack has failed .

oh boy

[JohnnyOV 2]

closest hydrant? is the building piped?

Is the #2 side connects to a building, allyway or street corner?

# of men on the engine/truck?

Edited March 4, 2006 by EMSJunkie712

[Guest]

Engine: Easy, put fire out!!!! Protect intergrity of staircase. Occupants on #2 side of 4th floor may be safe depending on volume of fire and class of construction.

Truck: If needed, use ladder to rescue. Otherwise ,force entry into fire apt and open bulkhead, for now. (if you can split-up)

IC: If eng and truck do their job, I wouldn't have to do much!!!!!

Response= 3 engines, 2 trucks, 1 rescue, 1 deputy chief, 1 RIT engine

Total 28-30 men

[ny10570 745]

Engine - Assuming there is no obvious threat from fire on 4th floor 2 side and the truck is right behind me...make the attack on the fire and protect the stairs.

Truck - Get a ladder to that window. If its possible get two ff's into the occupied apartment from the interior stairs while the other ff's are laddering the building. After ensuring the ocupants are out start the search.

Initial attack has failed (not making progress on the fire) - If you can't get a bigger and/or additional line up there withdraw and go exterior.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

How did my initial attack fail when you told me I just showed up? Why would I attempt an initial attack if I have victims trapped on the floor above? I wouldn't make an initial attack on this fire so it wouldn't fail for me.

IMMEDIATE SECOND ALARM OF AN ADDITIONAL 2 AND 2.

First line into the hallway to protect the stairs for possible evac that way. The door to the fire apartment(s) stay closed until the victims are out and accounted for. Back up line as soon as practical

3rd line floor above checking for extension.

Truck.... Throws ladders to get vics off 4th floor, aerial is set up to assist as soon as possible if scrub area is good. Remaining crew gets to those apartments and assesses for possible evac to the roof and down from there.

All others finish searches of floor above and fire floor, then first and second floors.

I will write this building off, go defensive and call it a success if all victims are retrieved, and I cannot still make a good aggressive but safe interior operation.

[Guest]

What is a scrub area?

Thanks.

[HFD23 37]

What is a scrub area?

Thanks.

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Scrub area is the area of a building that your truck's aerial can reach, in the case of a tower ladder it is the area of a building that the basket can touch. Ideally you want your tower ladder or stick to be able to hit 2 sides of the building. and in the above case you deffinatly want your scrub area to be in the proper operating range to make the necessary rescues. as well as provide a means of egres as necessary along with the more likely need to go defensive.

FDNY and aieralscope have a pretty good tower ladder placement and operations manual linke below

http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/ft&p/ftplad06.pdf

Edited March 5, 2006 by HFD23

[Guest]

Scrub area is the area of a building that your truck's aerial can reach, in the case of a tower ladder it is the area of a building that the basket can touch. Ideally you want your tower ladder or stick to be able to hit 2 sides of the building. and in the above case you deffinatly want your scrub area to be in the proper operating range to make the necessary rescues. as well as provide a means of egres as necessary along with the more likely need to go defensive.

FDNY and aieralscope have a pretty good tower ladder placement and operations manual linke below

http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/ft&p/ftplad06.pdf

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Thanks.

[Guest]

Scrub area is the area of a building that your truck's aerial can reach, in the case of a tower ladder it is the area of a building that the basket can touch. Ideally you want your tower ladder or stick to be able to hit 2 sides of the building. and in the above case you deffinatly want your scrub area to be in the proper operating range to make the necessary rescues. as well as provide a means of egres as necessary along with the more likely need to go defensive.

FDNY and aieralscope have a pretty good tower ladder placement and operations manual linke below

http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/ft&p/ftplad06.pdf

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I've never heard "scrub area" when refering to an aerial, only a tower...but you learn something new everyday...good thread!

[TimesUp 148]

Give a quick report so incoming Co's have a heads up. ( pretty much the scenario as above) 1st due engine better get the line in place to protect the stairs. You might need them If you can't get the stick or the bucket to the victims. Then push in on fire. 1st due truck better get the victim. Start the stick towards victims, if thats not gonna work start up the stairs and get them. All sort of variables can be thrown at you. Get up the fire ecscape to make the apt. or the one next to it then through the wall. Hopefully the Chief will be on scene shortly and a second line will be operating soon. If theres enough manpower have a guy stay outside and persuade the victims not to jump, also ask how many are up there. If they do jump you can then tell the guys to stop trying to make the apartment.

The IC should see what progress has been made when he gets on scene. Are the victims out. If not why? If the fire is not darkening down see if we can get another line in there. If the stick can't reach the victim have the second due try from another position. Like from the rear. Also if the first line is making progress maybe we can leave the occupents in place. As for all the other variables,? This was for ordinary construction.

[Guest JQP442]

if manpower permits, have your first engine company put a ladders to the 4th floor. Get the people out first (assumeing you have a ladder that can do it) while sending a team in to the fire floor to try to put out the fire. With additional units responding, they can take care of venting the roof, and putting a 2nd hand line into place to help knock down the fire. First and foremost, get the people out, the building can be rebuilt.

[Guest tfd193]

...you have portable ladders that can reach the fourth floor??...must be nice lol

[Guest]

one of the first most important thing to do in any fire is start the incident command system. first officer on scene needs to take charge until relieved by higher officer. start you mutaid process what ever you town calls for as needed. at such a scene as discribed this is important that it done properly. debrief the officer than call command is switching officers. at lesser fires i.e. brush or garbage containers it is not as important to go to as drastic measures but still should be done for good practice. but the main priority is life hazzard first the firefighters than the publics. the building that is on fire is the second priority.

since the initial attack failed use v.e.s. tactic. vent enter search. or have your search team run with water cans and possibly leave with the civilians through the windows by ground or arrial ladder. so what if you lose the building

this brings up another tactic or strategy. the people are on the other side of the structure. solve the problem. get between the fire and the occupants with the hose line. if the fire isn't moving rapidly towards them leave them for the truck company to rescue. first due engine co. job is put the fire out. some trainings that i have been to taught us that look at the picture. figure out the problem. why are the people trapped? dont ignore the problem wich is the fire because it grows rapidly. sure the people are trapped but think of how they are trapped. they are at a window on he other side of the building. what are the conditions at the window? smoke - heavy smoke - fire or even clear they just cannot make the stairwell because of smoke. what construction is the building? if its wood truss you need to move quickly. the commander needs to deceifer a plan. use the tools you have wisely. direct your teams and have communication dialog. split your teams wisely if you have the resourses. if you dont have the resourses worry about the people first. the building can be replaced. dont worry about the building. keep your firefighters and civilians standing.

always have plan b in your head on every job. expect the unexpected. their is alot that can go wrong.

Edited March 6, 2006 by mrbolz

[Guest]

How did my initial attack fail when you told me I just showed up?  Why would I attempt an initial attack if I have victims trapped on the floor above?  I wouldn't make an initial attack on this fire so it wouldn't fail for me.

IMMEDIATE SECOND ALARM OF AN ADDITIONAL 2 AND 2.

First line into the hallway to protect the stairs for possible evac that way.  The door to the fire apartment(s) stay closed until the victims are out and accounted for.  Back up line as soon as practical

3rd line floor above checking for extension.

Truck....  Throws ladders to get vics off 4th floor, aerial is set up to assist as soon as possible if scrub area is good.  Remaining crew gets to those apartments and assesses for possible evac to the roof and down from there.

All others finish searches of floor above and fire floor, then first and second floors.

I will write this building off, go defensive and call it a success if all victims are retrieved, and I cannot still make a good aggressive but safe interior operation.

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THIS IS EXTREMELY UNFORTUNATE .....Writing off this building ..

Anyone with fireground experience and common sense know that the situation gets progressively better once water is placed on the FIRE..Things get progressively WORSE when there is No Water placed on the fire. THE BEST RESCUE TOOL IS A PROPERLY PLACED HOSELINE.

Fire Blowing out windows is a good sign for US the firefighting force...The Fire has self vented and more than likely it will be possible for an easy push to be made to extinguish the fire.

Throw up Ladders to the 4th floor window ?????In pristine conditions a 35 may make it...but i guess you have bigger ground ladders and men ready to raise these ladders..

Evacuating people to the roof????????????? You are going to take people to the roof..place them in the CHIMNEY and now you get to the roof is the bulkhead door open...Hope it is not locked or maybe chained from the inside and i hope you have the right tools if it is..but then again you say assess so I guess you mean the fire is darkening down..but wait you advise no initial attack..so what is it?

WHat about entry to the fire apartment...Is anyone going to address this...If anyone is trapped in there, basically you are writing them off, for they are in need of the most and are in the most danger.

People trapped on the number 2 side remote from the fire..need to be reassured that help is on the way...try to get your aerial or tower ladder on the number 2 side and raise to their location.

To completely write off an initial attack is absolutely amazing that it is even suggested

The only thing that makes sense is the transmission of a Second alarm to bring additonal resources to the scene of an occupied multiple dwelling fire where many jobs have to taken care of...Unfortuantely not putting any water on the fire will escalate an already bad situation.... CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE THESE TACTICS ARE BEING TAUGHT....

[Jason762 2]

THIS IS EXTREMELY UNFORTUNATE .....Writing off this building ..

Anyone with fireground experience and common sense know that the situation gets progressively better once water is placed on the FIRE..Things get progressively WORSE when there is No Water placed on the fire. THE BEST RESCUE TOOL IS A PROPERLY PLACED HOSELINE.

Fire Blowing out windows is a good sign for US the firefighting force...The Fire has self vented and more than likely it will be possible for an easy push to be made to extinguish the fire.

Throw up Ladders to the 4th floor window ?????In pristine conditions a 35 may make it...but i guess you have bigger ground ladders and men ready to raise these ladders..

Evacuating people to the roof?????????????  You are going to take people to the roof..place them in the CHIMNEY and now you get to the roof is the bulkhead door open...Hope it is not locked or maybe chained from the inside and i hope you have the right tools if it is..but then again you say assess so I guess you mean the fire is darkening down..but wait you advise no initial attack..so what is it?

WHat about entry to the fire apartment...Is anyone going to address this...If anyone is trapped in there, basically you are writing them off, for they are in need of the most and are in the most danger.

People trapped on the number 2 side remote from the fire..need to be reassured that help is on the way...try to get your aerial or tower ladder on the number 2 side and raise to their location.

To completely write off an initial attack is absolutely amazing that it is even suggested

The only thing that makes sense is the transmission of a Second alarm to bring additonal resources to the scene of an occupied multiple dwelling fire where many jobs have to taken care of...Unfortuantely not putting any water on the fire will escalate an already bad situation.... CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE THESE TACTICS ARE BEING TAUGHT....

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Goalie,

Very well stated. It seems a lot of FF's out there have not taken the time to educate themselves about the hierarchy of rescue priority. Remember everyone, fire floor, floor above, top floor, then work your way down from the top floor. Many people that need the greatest help are those that CAN NOT be seen or heard. The person that is screaming at the window can at least scream and yell. What about the unconscious person close to the fire apartment.

Why would you write off this building? Nothing was said about there being an overwhelming amount of fire. This is a relatively bread and butter type fire. Yes there are many tasks that need to be accomplished simultaneously, so a second alarm is in order depending on your first alarm compliment of people, but there is no need to write off this building. I hope some of you are not in command positions in your respective FD's.

As for the failure of the initial attack, no specifics were given on why it failed so remedying this is not possible w/o those specifics. Can it be fixed with a second line, a larger line, or did water supply fail for some reason. Need more details...

[Guest]

As 1 st engine - stretch a line to the fire floor - prepare to operate in fire apt.

As 1 st ladder - go to fire floor - force entry for engine - evaluate conditions- keep fire door closed and force entry above when engine makes attack

try and get ariel to those on exp 2 side.

Do what you can with limited staffing, call for help on arrival

But giving up the building??? For what? A one room fire!

Stay Safe but Have Pride

[Guest]

A Ground ladder to a 4th floor? Even a 35' would have to be at about 80-85 degrees....I'd hate going up that or trying to bring someone down...thats if it even came close to reaching. If the arial won't reach get them from the interior or the fire ecscape. Don't bring them to the roof. They'll cook in the staiway above the fire. If the fire gets worse you don't want people on the roof. Fire ecscapes! Ues them, either the victims apartment or the one next door for entry and egress of the victims. Wall breach.......The worst you could find is Plaster wood lath. One or two guys can get through that......if the Building is newer you might be lucky and find sheet rock with those nice tin studs. And always get lines in place to put out the fire...you might put it out and then you won't have to evac the victims at all. You might be able to push it back into the apartment of origin and then get and evac. the victims through the interior stairs........Downward!

[Guest]

Thank you guys! Its refreshing to see that people have a clue out there and legitimized this fire tactics session into some good and reasonable information. My question still hasnt been answered...Where are those tactics taught that ALSfirefighter brought out...are they just his own opinion or legitimized tactics or sops for somewhere in the fire world? Thank you in advance and may you all stay safe in your respective fire response areas.

[Guest]

Thank you guys!  Its refreshing to see that people have a clue out there and legitimized this fire tactics session into some good and reasonable information.  My question still hasnt been answered...Where are those tactics taught that ALSfirefighter brought out...are they just his own opinion or legitimized tactics or sops for somewhere in the fire world?  Thank you in advance and may you all stay safe in your respective fire response areas.

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good question brother...hopefully not in any Westchester departments...also I'm not sure if it was mentioned but as soon as possible a 2nd line has to be stretched to the floor above...its often the most dangerous place in a fire ..."1/2 acre of hell" as one of my senior guys puts it

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First let me clarify something....when I said I would write the building off. I meant that if all else failed, and the building was a loss and I didn't lose a civilian victim or a firefighter, that is a success. I didn't mean I would write the building off upon arrival and I never wrote off intial attack. I would delay until I can assure I do not need those stairs to get victims down first. 2 stairwells, not a problem, 1 for attack, 1 for rescue.

Second, where are these tactics....its decisions I have seen and have had made by those in command of me when operating with minimal (unacceptable) personnel levels. What are you going to do if you can't get to them from the windows? And yes I do know of a Westchester department who has to make these decisions sometimes when you have multiple vicitms who need to be evacuated.

Would I take victims to the roof if I know the aerial is there and that would be my only option. Yes I would, drastic measures require drastic decisions. I never implied that was my first option.

The best rescue tool is a well placed hoseline...spoken like a true engine man.

[ex-commish 490]

The best rescue tool is a well placed hoseline...spoken like a true engine man.

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Absolutely. Putting the wet stuff on the red stuff is the best medicine...

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Irons 0]

First let me clarify something....when I said I would write the building off.  I meant that if all else failed, and the building was a loss and I didn't lose a civilian victim or a firefighter, that is a success.  I didn't mean I would write the building off upon arrival and I never wrote off intial attack.  I would delay until I can assure I do not need those stairs to get victims down first.  2 stairwells, not a problem, 1 for attack, 1 for rescue.

Second, where are these tactics....its decisions I have seen and have had made by those in command of me when operating with minimal (unacceptable) personnel levels.  What are you going to do if you can't get to them from the windows?  And yes I do know of a Westchester department who has to make these decisions sometimes when you have multiple vicitms who need to be evacuated.

Would I take victims to the roof if I know the aerial is there and that would be my only option.  Yes I would, drastic measures require drastic decisions.  I never implied that was my first option. 

The best rescue tool is a well placed hoseline...spoken like a true engine man.

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ALS... I am glad you read the posts following your response where you specifically stated you would never make an initial attack on the above mentioned fire. See ALS we all can learn something new each day in the Fire Service and I think today is one of those days for you. Whether your a firefighter , officer, chief, Instructor, You never Know it all and most of what you learn in this business comes from the fireground.....Many people can state the BOOK tactics...but in reality, experience and true knowledge of the fireground comes from ACTUALLY being there and experienced each and every part of a Fire Operation. Im also glad you learned that your initial attack of water will start making things progressively better to your overall Rescue operation.

You can also mention and bring in manpower situations....but do not divert from the intent of this forum....Fire Tactics at a Working Fire... and no matter what you manpower situation is you re not going to go wrong with a strategically placed hoseline......

And by the way...dont take anyone via the interior to the roof please during a fire in an occupied Multiple dwelling. I think they do that in the movies or maybe the comics...but i have seen some incinerated stairwells leading up to the roof and ALS if you have seen this, you would not even be thinking this.

[Guest]

ALS - "Why would I attempt an initial attack if I have victims trapped on the floor above? I wouldn't make an initial attack on this fire so it wouldn't fail for me.

- I would delay until I can assure I do not need those stairs to get victims down first. 2 stairwells, not a problem, 1 for attack, 1 for rescue."

I'm not sure which post to believe.

However with an understaffed dept. stretching a line to the 3rd floor will probally give you enough time to evacuate these people via the stairs or an adjoining area

Remember put out the fire and many of our problems go away.

[Jason762 2]

And by the way...dont take anyone via the interior to the roof please during a fire in an occupied Multiple dwelling.  I think they do that in the movies or maybe the comics...but i have seen some incinerated stairwells leading up to the roof and ALS if you have seen this, you would not even be thinking this.

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This is true, and on top of the fact that the stairwell turns into a chimney, the parade of panicked civilians will make it quite difficult to bring someone UP the stairs to the roof. We all would like to seperate stairwells into an attack stairwell and an evacuation stairwell, but when the s--t hits the fan, and people panic its not going to happen. Just stick with the basics. Attack the fire, rescue those that can be rescued, and protect in place as many as you safely can. If they are remote from the fire, and proper ventilation and fire attack take place, most people can stay put in a fire resistive or non-combustible OMD. If people need to be removed the best method is via interior fire protected stairs, then the fire escape if its in good condition (which most are not), then via aerial ladder or ground ladder. Oh and DOWN is probably a better idea than UP in terms of direction of travel for victim removal.

[HCFRFF 0]

Seems like theres alot more people on this forum critizing others for what they would do. Quick to go after somebody and you havent shared what your so knowleglble self would do for this senerio.

As for me-

Officer on the engine- establish the command, Call for a 2nd alarm. send a line to the fire floor, 2nd due engine-send a crew to floor above fire. send a crew to the top floor. Due a 360 of the building if possible. send my 3 rd engine in with the 2nd line

send my first due truck in for S/R, 2nd due to open up the fire floor. Next due spiecal service unit rather a Squad or truck assist with evac if thats been completed have them assume the RIT on the A side.

Im sure my B/C has arrived by now and give him a face to face. he may not take the command from me or designate me as he/she wishes.

With the intial attack failing- call 3rd alarm and spacial call 2 more trucks and 2 more heavy rescue squads.

With 3rd alarm on scene I should have 9 engines,5 trucks, 3 Heavy Rescues, 2 more battalion chiefs and 2 operations duty chiefs.

If my first alarm crews that went above the fire floor have completed searchs that proved negitive i would send them to fire floor/room to help put the fire out.

My first 2 trucks would have the OVM and drivers get the building laddered with both ground ladders and the sticks/buckets ready for rescue.

Set up Divisons/Sectors and assign Batt. chiefs or OIC of engines/trucks to each floor and side of building.

Conduct a acountabilty report every 10 mins. Have EMS set up a Rehab.

[Irons 0]

Seems like theres alot more people on this forum critizing others for what they would do. Quick to go after somebody and you havent shared what your so knowleglble self would do for this senerio.

As for me-

Officer on the engine- establish the command, Call for a 2nd alarm. send a line to the fire floor, 2nd due engine-send a crew to floor above fire. send a crew to the top floor. Due a 360 of the building if possible. send my 3 rd engine in with the 2nd line

send my first due truck in for S/R, 2nd due to open up the fire floor. Next due spiecal service unit rather a Squad or truck assist with evac if thats been completed have them assume the RIT on the A side.

Im sure my B/C has arrived by now and give him a face to face. he may not take the command from me or designate me as he/she wishes.

With the intial attack failing- call 3rd alarm and spacial call 2 more trucks and 2 more heavy rescue squads.

With 3rd alarm on scene I should have 9 engines,5 trucks, 3 Heavy Rescues, 2 more battalion chiefs and 2 operations duty chiefs.

If my first alarm crews that went above the fire floor have completed searchs that proved negitive i would send them to fire floor/room to help put the fire out.

My first 2 trucks would have the OVM and drivers get the building laddered with both ground ladders and the sticks/buckets ready for rescue.

Set up Divisons/Sectors and assign Batt. chiefs or OIC of engines/trucks to each floor and side of building.

Conduct a acountabilty report every 10 mins. Have EMS set up a Rehab.

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HCR...Im not sure if the word critcizing is correct....I think those responding here have a genuine concern for those that read from this website and some of the tactics mentioned here were just downright DANGEROUS. Once again..maybe the comments were not mapped out into a perfect textbook scenario...but the one theme u would see common was the NEED FOR APPLICATION WATER to the fire room or area. You can call for many alarms and set up 42 sectors....unless someone starts water on the fire in the beginning stages of arrival..., destruction will occur, and by the time the 9 th engine arrives, you can have them respond to the demolition sector.

True manpower dictates how many jobs you can get done, but I think what helps a lot of depts with that issue is Quick water on the fire. Once that water is established and applied...search can begin at the most dangerous area..closest to the fire and work from there, along with all the fireground necessities. Apparently with your post you have a staffed dept with assigned duties. That is great.

BY the way...You may want to outfit your second due engine going to the floor above with some variation of forcible entry tools, because you have your second due truck going to the fire floor or fire apt and no truck company on the floor above to help the brothers or sisters get into the possibly locked apartment and also to search that apartment for possible trapped occupants!

Im sure we have many new firefighters reading here and that is good. They are impressionable and I would rather see them receive right information than the WRONG stuff.

Remember if you are posting hundreds of posts on here we have to think before we write...because with so many posts that SOUND really good...People begin to believe that what is said is THE WAY, and in reality it just may not be. " I meant this and Im meant that ..bull doo doo as far as i am concerned! You meant what you meant on your original post. I think those that read from here and have any type of experience know exactly what is what and can read through some of the posters! As long as we can learn from our mistakes, I feel this is a success. We want to work for a safe fireground and make sure each and every one of us goes home to our family and friends. That is our goal.

Stay safe always to all who read from here.