Where's the deuce n a 1/2 ?

[hudson144 150]

With the fire in the bronx the other day a few of the storys that I have heard from that alarm has raised another red flag in my experiences as a firefighter. This fire from what I have heard was a tough crawl down the hallway and then into the fire apartment. The crews took a beatin from what i understand both on the fire floor as well as floor above. FDNY does utilize 2 1/2'' lines and does properly man them. The question that I ask is how many depts are not using the correct size hoselines when it comes to a fire such as the above. I do remember about 10-12 yrs ago they had a similiar fire on a windy day and it took them 3 2 1/2s to make the fire apartment. The question is this, when are the depts. that arent pre-pared to attack a fire such as this going to learn. When you aren't flowing enough water to put the fire out then people are going to get hurt or killed. This is basic stuff,we did away with booster lines years ago and yes we went to 1 1/2s,then 1 3/4s but many are not attacking larger fires with "LARGER WATER"- ---------------->

[dadbo46 50]

With the proper nozzle, proper pump pressure (do the calculation guys) and proper line placement, an 1 3/4" line is almost as effective as a 2 1/2".

Years ago, there was the booster and 2 1/2' lines to choose from. We've come a long way. With an agressive interior attack led by competent officers, are able to extinguish fires more rapidly than in the old days.

However, having said all of that, if a 2 1/1" line is your primary line, the second line needs to be a 2 1/2" also....not smaller.

[Guest]

With the proper nozzle, proper pump pressure (do the calculation guys) and proper line placement, an 1 3/4" line is almost as effective as a 2 1/2".

Years ago, there was the booster and 2 1/2' lines to choose from.  We've come a long way.  With an agressive interior attack led by competent officers, are able to extinguish fires more rapidly than in the old days.

However, having said all of that, if a 2 1/1" line is your primary line, the second line needs to be a 2 1/2" also....not smaller.

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AS YOU HAD STATED ABOVE ABOUT 1 3/4 LINE BEING ALMOST EFFECTIVE IS TOTTALLY WRONG! YOU CAN T COMPARE A 2 1/2 LINE WITH A SMOOTH BORE NOZZLE TO A 1 3/4 LINE , WOULD YOU WANT TO TRY TO MAKE IT DOWN THE HALLWAY IN TRACY TOWERS WITH THE CONDTIONS THEY HAD ON THE 24TH FLOOR, WITH ONE OR EVEN TWO 1 3/4 LINES??? I DONT THINK SO. WITH A 2 1/2 YOU GET MORE VOLUME OF WATER

[Guest]

There is NO comparison between a 1 3/4 and a 2 1/2. the latter will flow at least 100 more gallons a minute.

[Guest]

big fire big hose. don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Guest]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Hudson144 is talking about JOBS you may encounter on the upper floors of an M/D in Standpipe Bldgs. where generally you experience very low water pressures and gpm. In these instances, which seem to be quite common in the FDNY, you need a larger diameter hose line such as a 21/2", with for the most part, a breakapart smooth bore nozzle consisting of an 11/8"to a 11/4" tip to compensate for these low water pressures. Larger diameter attack lines with straight tips need less pressure to properly flow their expected gpm and are better suited for these JOBS on the upper floors of these Standpiped Bldgs. where you generally experience these low pressures at the standpiped outlets than smaller diameter attack lines, which require higher pressures due to their higher friction losses, especially if their equipped with fog nozzles that require their standard 100psi to function properly. As FDNY, BC John Norman states, in his book Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics, "the laws of hydraulics don't change because of hose and nozzle design". He talks in great detail about this particular topic in his text, not just for these particular Standpiped JOBS, but for any JOB your Dept. may encounter, where a large volume of water is required for suppression. As an old sage puts it, "You don't go bear hunting with a .22" Take it from me. If you think your going to get the same flow out of an 13/4" hoseline, especially with a TFT Automatic Fog Nozzle as you do out of a 21/2", with a smooth bore, you are sadly mistaken, and playing Russian Roulette. I just hope my Dept. wakes up soon enough and realizes this! I'm tired of trying to protect one, let alone two three story frame exposures with 13/4" lines, pissing out 150-180gpm, when the JOB requires 250-300gpm to be succesful. Even if this means teaming up Engine Cos. to get the job done, than so be it. It's better to have more water than you need than to wish you had it. Otherwise, once again, you'll be staring at another manmade parking lot.

[ex-commish 490]

With the fire in the bronx the other day a few of the storys that I have heard from that alarm has raised another red flag in my experiences as a firefighter. This fire  from what I have heard was a tough crawl down the hallway and then into the fire apartment. The crews took a beatin from what i understand both on the fire floor as well as floor above. FDNY does utilize 2 1/2'' lines and does properly man them. The question that I ask is how many depts are not using the correct size hoselines when it comes to a fire such as the above. I do remember about 10-12 yrs ago they had a similiar fire on a windy day and it took them 3 2 1/2s to make the fire apartment. The question is this, when are the depts. that arent pre-pared to attack a fire such as this going to learn. When you aren't flowing enough water to put the fire out then people are going to get hurt or killed. This is basic stuff,we did away with booster lines years ago and yes we went to 1 1/2s,then 1 3/4s but many are not attacking larger fires with "LARGER WATER"- ---------------->

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Very good point Hudson. We carry 2 1/2 pre-connected hand lines on our engines as well as 1 3/4. I have tossed with the idea of increasing the amount of 2 1/2 due to the many large commercial buildings we do have in our district. I have used both size hand lines and there is definitely a difference with the 2 1/2 especially when you use a smooth bore.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[hudson144 150]

Some very good and strong valid information,keep it going!!! With some of the quotes being stated I have one to add, "DON'T PISS INTO THE WIND"!!!!!!!!!

[Remember585 815]

Our general rule of thumb is simple. Commercial fires - pull the 2 1/2". If it is anything with more then 50% involvement, we generally pull 2 1/2" as well. We used to have a guy in our Company that pulled the 2 1/2" at EVERYTHING - and that was a b****!

Our new Engine will have two 2 1/2" preconnected lines with smooth bore knobs on them in addition to the other four 1 3/4" preconnected lines. I'm fairly positive that all of our rigs, including the quint, have at least one 2 1/2" line ready to go.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Which line to use should be the "WHO WHAT WHERE and WHEN" at a scene. Obviously a commercial structure should be a 2 1/2" and a residential should be determined by how much fire there is. But the really big problem in my mind is the type on nozzle. How many departments here say we need big water and stretch a 2 1/2" line with a fog tip??? I have seen several. If you need "big water" on a hand line you better be using a smooth bore. Fire is put out by volume of water if there is a lot of it and you don’t want to steam out everyone. This also goes to say if you do not have / use smooth bores, you better be set on a straight stream on that adjustable nozzle.

Each fire is different and which line and nozzle type should be considered upon arrival to get the best knock down. In my company we use 1 1/2", 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" attack lines depending on the fire. There is really not much difference between the 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" attack lines for a residential house fire. As for the 2 1/2", its a big line to get into a small structure, bit should be brough in as a back up or attack for a O.M.R.D.

Also, if you are using a 2 1/2" in any fire I think single jacket lines are better and easier to move around.

[cas2383 22]

Down in PC on E-60 we use a 2 1/2 in. highrise kit with a smoothe bore nozzle with an 1 3/8in bore, puts out a lot of water...

Edited March 1, 2006 by cas2383

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Dadbo:

Seems like your being questioned on your response brother. Prove your statement if you feel you are correct.

©(Q/100 squared) (L/100) = FL

NP+FL+AFL +/- EL = PDP

However I have to say as a pump ops instructor I cannot agree either. Max effective GPM's from a 1 3/4" 175 gpm's. Anything higher and you may start hitting its critical mass. 2 1/2 with smoothbore, 250 gpms. You cannot get 250 gpm's out of a 1 3/4" no matter what nozzle you have.

For a 200' 1 3/4 line with a smooth bore @ 250 gpm's your PDP would have to be:

250 psi. Your at max PDP allowed for 1 line. C is 16 x Q 6.25 x L 2= FL 200 + NP= 50 = 250 pdp. That's on a flat plain with NO elevation!

Now if your thinking of a 2" line, then you can come closer to that with a lower pressure.

Great comments by all. The over dependance on preconnects is unbelievable. Its like many firefighters have just become robots upon arrival of a fire and only know how to pull one thing..the 1 3/4 preconnect. Why? This is a training and management issue. Not many departments I have contact with train with the big guns, nor have I heard many officers directing personnel upon arrival to pull 2 1/2's or take the steps to get them stretched even when a 1 3/4 is already on the ground. Its ok, its called transition and you can replace it easy enough.

Another head shaker is those that still swear by having a fog tip on the end of an aerial device. I see no reason for this. By utilizing a smooth bore master stream you getter a better stream with great penetration, less effected by elements like wind and at much lower pump discharge pressures.

[hudson144 150]

ALS-first of all for a marine I compliment you on your math!!! On aerials I also agree but sometimes its just not going to be done because of its design, EG; some straight stick ladders have the electronic controls for the nozzles. I have worked off of one, I always felt that it would have been great to have a straight tip to do exactly what you mentioned,too disconnect the remote both from the turntable and on the fly of the ladder might be against the wishes of the upper echelons of the department. I am sure it can be done,

[mfc2257 464]

I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but my comments are based on a concern over actual handline training.... The traditional engine company operations drill doesn't cover most of this stuff.

As far as training on larger attack lines, I don't feel like nearly enough of it is done. This may seem obvious to many, but dragging a fully charged duece through a building isn't easy. Many FF's who are used to working with an 1.75in line are not prepared for the work involved to put a duece in service and actually make an aggressive attack with it....

I know many departments that have "charge at the door" policies which require the crew to march through the building with a charged line to reach the seat of the fire. Precious time and energy is lost doing this. Many of the best stops I've been on have been as a result of stretching an uncharged line as far as safely possible into the building before relaying the order to charge.... Attic fires in brownstones are a great example.... You can have a fully involved attic that will require a duece, but 4 stories of narrow, winding staircase to climb. With a "charge at the door" policy, the duece will take several minutes to climb the stairs, and the vent team might very well be waiting on you to crack the building thus putting them in hazzards way. With an uncharged line the top floor can be reached in minimal time, with the crew still having enough air air and energy to make an effective initial attack.

Other items that I feel aren't covered often enough include discussions of when straight vs fog streams are to be used, water application techniques (literally how and where to put the water at a job), hydraulic ventalation, etc.

One final training point regarding handlines that I have brought up many times since Millwood purchased the current E-247 in the late '90s is the extreme difference in conditions when comparing fires suppressed with water and CAFS. Many departments are purchasing CAFS equipment given it's awesome capabilities to suppress fires in short periods of time with minimial water AND water damage. Many departments are so excited about the abilities of CAFS that they overlook the major differences and dangers that come with it as well. Quick examples include the fact that CAFS does very little to suppress heat in the room and thus, the fire might be out, but the room is still every bit as hot as it was when it was glowing a minute prior. I've heard accounts of several firefighters that have been burned by standing up in a room shortly after using CAFS to suppress a fire. This brings another point, that CAFS doesn't allow you to vent the room with the hose stream out of a window. CAFS also doesn't offer the penetration and dispersion that a water straight stream does.

Just examples of how the logistics of using larger attack lines is overlooked during training and thus could lead to fireground complications.

[doug_e 0]

From what I've read, used, been taught, and taught one of the things about suppression is "size does matter". All too often I've seen fires get away from the attack team because they made their initial attack short of the 'supression potential' required.

Suppression potential is the amount of water delivered/water required (d/r=p) to overcome the conditions encountered, Optimal sp > 100%, i.e :

- 20' X 50' bldg. = 1,000 square ft. divided by 3 = 300 gpm (basic flow rate calc.)

- with fire in one room roughly figure, 25% involvement with 25% lateral and 25% vertical exposure ( 75% of 300gpm = 225gpm required or r= 225)

d = 250gpm with sb 2 1/2" or 175gpm with 1 3/4"

r = 225gpm water required

p = 1.11(111%) with sb 2 1/2" or .77(77%) with 1 3'4"

With a 2 1/2" you get over 100% of what you need,with a 1 3/4" you get just over 75% of what you need. If 50% involvement, such as the living room/great room involvement + 50% vertical and lateral exposure will require 100% of GPM at which point a 2 line attack will be required. If you did it with a 2 1/2 and an 1 3/4 your SP= 140%, two 2 1/2's = 166%

Remember that you need that water source soon, you have between 2 to 4 minutes.

Just a good "rule of thumb" calculation.

[dc2t 80]

How about a 2 inch handline less weight easy to handle

200' of 2" with 15/16 tip = 240 gpm PP approx 100psi

[hudson144 150]

Great-alot of info that we all can use, I can't wait for those new 5'' nozzles hit the market,its going to alleviate alot of problems!!!!

[R1SmokeEater 359]

Hey, I am curious- What is White Plains using on their Standpipe packs ??

[TBarnum 2]

Hudson, Here in Rye we have the twin to your L2.

It came with a fog nozzle remotely controlled.

It NOW has a smooth bore nozzle on tip ( left/right, up/down remote still operational just no fog/ss - not needed )

It is a shame the "upper echelons" are not flexible.

[hudson144 150]

I Did see your truck at the FTC one day and am aware that it can be done,right now L-2 is O.O.S so we will wait n see what can be done.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

a 2 1/2 can cause extensive damage to interiors ( without flowing water ) ..... so bad that some guys can be labeled as 2.5

[CFD320 35]

My engine company did away with 1 3/4" hose about five years ago. We run 2" on our crosslays and high rise kit, as 585 alluded to we do have a 250' 2 1/2" pre-connected in the hose bed (with 350 more under it). I strongly recommend to everyone reading this to try 2" line, it is not very much different to handle than 1 3/4" and it flows a ton more water. We have flow meters on all of our discharges and the rule of thumb I use as a MPO is 300GPM for 3 average size firefighters. It sounds like a ton of water, and it is, but is not difficult to handle. A long time Chief Driver from my company has no problem running over 350 gpm with our normal crew (Our 3 most regular interior guys are all over 250lb). I’m a very heavy yet strong guy and 2 1/2" is a real pain with any less than 3 plus an officer IMO.

Obviously, for commercial structures or structures that are well involved there is no substitute for 2 1/2".... But I know I feel much more comfortable with a 2" in my hand than a 1 3/4" in a hot spot.

[ny10570 745]

I’m a very heavy yet strong guy and 2 1/2" is a real pain with any less than 3 plus an officer IMO.

←

4 guys on a 2 1/2?? Are you running smooth bore? And what are your pressures at the tip? While I haven't had the chance (or the need) to take a 2 1/2 into a fire, all the training I've done with a 2 1/2" has been with 2 guys on the knob. While its heavy as a mother, and you do work at the tip, its far from overwhelming to operate and advance within the confines of a room. Its really allways been the door man who is really taking the beating moving all that hose.

[Guest]

a 2 1/2 can cause extensive damage to interiors ( without flowing water ) ..... so bad that some guys can be labeled as 2.5

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So can a lack of Hydrants which seem to be fairly common in upper Westchester.

[DMA327 12]

While on the topic of proper hose size in a high-rise fire... While 2 1/2 is a lot of work to advance and use properly, i would much rather get up to the upper floor with a handline which will produce enough water then have to make my way all the way back down.

You're dispatched on a call for smoke from an upper floor...

You pull up with fire blowing out of one window; maybe 3 to 5 minutes into the call depending...

you get up to the fire floor with your equipment, hook up to the standpipe with 1 3/4, flake your hose, pop the stairwell door to find out that the door was left open to the fire apt. ...

The fire ball is torching down the corridor and you need bigger hose...

a few more minutes...

YOUR IN BIG TROUBLE!!!!!!!!!

[CFD320 35]

4 guys on a 2 1/2??  Are you running smooth bore?  And what are your pressures at the tip?  While I haven't had the chance (or the need) to take a 2 1/2 into a fire, all the training I've done with a 2 1/2" has been with 2 guys on the knob.  While its heavy as a mother, and you do work at the tip, its far from overwhelming to operate and advance within the confines of a room.  Its really allways been the door man who is really taking the beating moving all that hose.

←

I was referring to advancing and maneuvering the 2.5, the actual operation does not require the additional men.

Don't get me wrong there is no substitute for 2.5 attack line.

[JN352 0]

Some one asked about White Plains FD SP packs... They use 2" rubber hose with a smooth bore nozzel. The main pack is a 100' length with an additional 50' length also brought in by the crew. The officer carries a bag with various tools for the ops. including a fog attatchment for the break away smooth bore.

......In addition the discussion of 2 1/2 vs. 1 3/4 can go on forever but the most important thing is to just be FLEXIBLE and use what is going to best perform under those specific circumstances. Dont always take preconnects especially during training. Change it up so your people dont get complacent.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Thanks, even jarheads can do math. We also had our smooth bore on out ladder and the same as mentioned, up/down, left/right, worked fine and with lower PDP's as mentioned. Guess someone can't back up their statement they made about getting similiar flows from a 1 3/4 as a 2 1/2.

Doug e: Great point. In our business its like going to a fight, and we don't have to fight fair. If the fire pulls a knife, we pull a gun. If it pulls a gun, we pull a bigger caliber. Unfortunately, many don't get it and neither does much of the leadership.

Also, the NFA fire flow calculation you used, its important to remember that is the flow need to accomplish extinguishment in the first 5 minutes.

Fog vs. Smooth: Throw the fog away except maybe for your trash line. There isn't anything interior I can't do with a smooth bore nozzle. Even hydraulic vent. When you shut the bale down, the stream breaks up enough to give you some hydraulic ventilation capability. Not totally efficient as a fog, but it works for what we need it for.

Tanker 10....huh? can you elaborate more on your interior damage, labelling guys 2.5s. If its an inside joke I'm knocking on the door...lol.

[Remember585 815]

Tanker 10....huh?  can you elaborate more on your interior damage, labelling guys 2.5s.  If its an inside joke I'm knocking on the door...lol.

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I'm the one known as 2 1/2".

A few years back, probably close to 10 now, we had a possible fire in a chinese restaurant. I got there first with the CPD and we had smoke coming out of the building pretty good. E119 was first in, and as the first crew was popping the door, I single-handedly (and foolishly) pulled about 200' of 2 1/2" line through the dining room area. It wasn't until I was done serpentining through the nicely arranged tables with all the glasses and silverware on them when our driver charged it. I think I knocked over a few tables and broke a few glasses....but what the hell.

Oh, and it was just a burning wok. No fire. Lots of smoke.

[IzzyEng4 427]

My engine company did away with 1 3/4" hose about five years ago.  We run 2" on our crosslays and high rise kit, as 585 alluded to we do have a 250' 2 1/2" pre-connected in the hose bed (with 350 more under it).  I strongly recommend to everyone reading this to try 2" line, it is not very much different to handle than 1 3/4" and it flows a ton more water.  We have flow meters on all of our discharges and the rule of thumb I use as a MPO is 300GPM for 3 average size firefighters.  It sounds like a ton of water, and it is, but is not difficult to handle.  A long time Chief Driver from my company has no problem running over 350 gpm with our normal crew (Our 3 most regular interior guys are all over 250lb).  I’m a very heavy yet strong guy and 2 1/2" is a real pain with any less than 3 plus an officer IMO.

Obviously, for commercial structures or structures that are well involved there is no substitute for 2 1/2"....  But I know I feel much more comfortable with a 2" in my hand than a 1 3/4" in a hot spot.

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Sounds like the difference between a 1 1/2 and 1 3/4 debate they had years back. For us I don;t think running all 2's would help us cause of man power. We usually only have 2 guys per line. Can 2 handle a 2" ok?