Fireground Chaos - WHY?

[Remember585 815]

Who has never been to a fire scene where it looks like all hell has broken loose? It happens all the time. Hoses look like spaghetti, tools are all over the ground, guys are tripping over eachother, and the IC is running around like a chicken with his head cutoff. Why is it that once the alarm is received, our minds go to pudding? :-k

In my opinion, it is a lack of discipline. Fireground scenes like this are the direct affect of poor discipline. Unfollowed SOGs, a lack of preplans, an inexperienced Officer, and an undeniable failure to train as a Department will lead to fireground follies. All of these blunders could make your fire get out of control, and could easily put the lives of your colleagues at risk.

The answer is simple, make your members understand how important it is to work as a well-disciplined unit. There is no denying that those Fire Departments with all of the above in place manage their drill grounds no differently then their fire scenes. Here's how simple it really is;

1. Create a Pre-plan for your entire district. Take the time to get building layouts for all types of buildings in your area. Have a knowledge of where your nearest water supply is. Will you need tankers? Is this fire going to require a long stretch of hose that you can't do without Mutual Aid? Figure out aerial placement points, and determine if your aerial(s) will do the job or if more is needed. Is this building worth entering? What kind of fire load are we dealing with? Get this info!

2. Develop SOGs/ SOPs that outline how your operations will be performed. As strange as it sounds, having these SOGs / SOPs in place is almost like creating a lesson plan for a teacher. It is the foundation of every well-organized Department - BIG or SMALL, PAID or VOLUNTEER. Don't just write them and hand them out, educate your membership!

3. Require training standards of your Officers, including a certain amount of experience. We all know that in the volunteer service that Officers are elected to FILL POSITIONS. We need to end this, and see to it that mature, educated and experienced people are leading our men into battle. And I know I may not share my opinion with everyone, but age doesn't mean anything. A 30 year old could very well be a better Officer then someone who has been in the firehouse 20 years and is nearing their 50th birthday. Choose wisely!

4. Whats that word? Oh yes, TRAINING!!!! How many times can I stress this point? If SOGs / SOPs are our foundation, then training is our framework. Without training, everything falls apart. NFPA says what training is required of career staffing. But nothing(!) about volunteers. Isn't it a fair statement to say that fires in a paid department burn like they do in Vollywood? Aren't the risks the same? Get out there and TRAIN people. If you don't have time to take a class this month, make your firehouse drill. Too busy to get to the station and learn about ladders? Read about them on the net! Those of you reading this obviously realize how important training is in our service. Take the time to better yourself on a personal level, and help your colleagues improve on the team level.

I hope what I have brought to the plate hits home for many of you. I try teaching my own people how important it is to learn as much as they can about our district, our policies, and themselves. We should figure out our limitations in the drill yard, not on the job. Train like it is the real deal, and treat the real deal like it is the drill yard. We're in this together, paid or not, and all of us should go home at the end of the day.

www.Engine119Croton.org

[Guest BrotherFF]

Excellent =D>

[BFD1054 1,552]

Hey Muns.....Fireground Chaos??? Chief Has Arrived On Scene, right? Kidding aside, you make some excellent, valid points as usual my friend! The sad part is that unfortunately as you said, most of us can't say that we haven't been to such a call. The pager goes off and the adrenaline kicks in and everyone goes crazy! No matter how many times you tell guys to slow down and think, they're always going to go back to the adrenaline rush. i think that we are all guilty of doing this at least once or twice, its a natural reaction. The thing is, we have to try and stop that and start some organization! Your points, 1-4, are very well put together! I like the idea of pre-planning, and it doesn't hurt to do this as often as it takes, especially with commercial occupancies that may change more often. In our response area, we have the Westchester Industrial Complex, a very large complex with around 30, give or take, businesses occupying it. The complex houses everything from a bus company to an auto body shop & even a Con Edison shop! Our Fire Marshall & 1 of our Lt.'s are in the process of updating our pre-plans for the complex to assist us when responding to an alarm there. One thing to take into mind is that there are only 2 hydrants in the complex, 1 on the A exposure and one on the D exposure, and they are from a private water source. With that in mind, we know an extensive hose-lay may be required from the main road, which was once done for a Haz-Mat incident. With a building like that, we will have to be updated on the businesses that come and go from the complex, this is where the pre-plans will hopefully help, but may need to be updated quite often. Your point #2 is also great! Its good to have SOP's/SOG's in place, but educating the guys on them is much more important, they are only good if people are aware of them! Point #3 has to be one of my favorites =D>. I have about 6 years in the department, and i know that i have more classes than plenty of the members that have 10 or 15 years! Again, age and time in the department doesn't necessarily mean anything! I've said it before and i'll say it again, training is everything! I don't care how old you are or how long you've been in the department, you should be training to keep updated and familiar with the various aspects of firefighting! You gotta love the old timers that pride on thier length of membership and say things like "i've been in this department for 20 years" and :blahblah:. Well, just because you have 20 years, doesn't mean you've always been training! As far as point #4, i'll say it again...training is everything! I get sick of hearing all the excuses why guys can't make drill or can't take classes! Hey, if you're volunteer, nobody can force you and they sure as hell can't fire you! But when it comes down to it, training may be the only thing that saves your life, a fellow brother's life or anyone elses for that matter, and that is why i personally try to train as often as possible! As you said, if you can't "make" a drill, read about a topic! Pick up Firehouse or Fire Engineering magazine and read it, i have learned a lot from those magazines! Even just reading on someone elses' experiences, bad or good, may be a big help!

Anyway, sorry for rambling on! I just think my buddy John made some excellent points and i just figured i'd reiderate and throw in my 2 cents!

[x635 4,066]

Another outstanding article by Remember585!

I agree with many of the points made, especially in regards to the officers. Great LINE leadership is key in any succesful incident or company.

One thing I'd like to add that is a well-rounded, cohesive team that gets along (working under the great leadership) is often the best performing on the fireground. People need to put personal differences aside and focus on working together to get the task done. Freelancing also plays into this, DO YOUR ASSIGNED TASK!!!

I especially agree with the officer election points. As R585 said, Officers need to be APPOINTED in some sort of fair way based on their qualifications and experience and leadership skill. Maybe a promotional exam,interviews, coupled with an election would be a better way for volunteers to appoint their leaders.

An organized command post is also key to a more controlled fireground, bu thats a whole nother subject, lol.

Engine 119's Captain should be an example.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Seth, again you've added some great points! We all know that there are some people that just can't get along, but like you said, we all have to suck it up for the sake of getting a job done! If a group gets along and can just team up and work together, it makes it a whole lot easier to accomplish tasks! I'd have to say that freelancing is one of my biggest pet-pieves on a scene! For example, i can't stand it when i see guys that are supposed to be doing truck work, are instead doing interier attack on a hand-line! Things like that are big problems that need to be dealt with! For one, if you are not doing the job you were assigned to, then who is? Another problem is accountability. If you were assigned to the roof, but decided to "jump" on a hand-line, the IC may not be aware of that. Now, you can't be found and someone has to now try and locate you! Now, getting to your points about officers. Back in January, i ran in an election for 2nd Lt, and i won the election. I would hope that people voted for me based on thier knowledge of my training and experience and so on. I must say however, that i really like your ideas for "promotions." An election is good, but more should be done for one to be appointed/elected an officer. I definately like the idea of at least an interview with chief officers, that way they can get a feel for why you think you deserve the position as well as to see how you perform under pressure during the interview. A promotional exam would be good to. It may be a good idea to not only "make-up" an exam with some officer related questions, but maybe confer with members of career departments to see what is asked on thier promotional exams to help better the exam. Again, wanted to add my thoughtsand opinions.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Not only is important to have much of the ideas and standards posted by 585 and 635, it is of utmost importance that they be enforced! How many of us have seen in our travels standards and policies thrown out the window because they didn't have anyone to fill a position that qualifies.

Incident Command is a function, a system. NY and particulary Westchester has been too stagnant in moving along to a system that is actually proper. Then again we love putting tradition as the mother of impedence to advancement. Just because there are Chiefs with numbers and "assistant" doesn't preclude them from being the IC. Contrary to popular belief the Chief, whom is supposed to be acting as IC most of the time in this area, doesn't have to roam the fireground. There is no such thing as half way leadership or ICS. But until the "we do things our way." Or we've done it that way for xx years and it works goes away...we will continue to have these problems. The person doesn't make command, the system is designed to ease the burden of command. The IC has the easiest job...operations is the guy whom much responsibility and decision making falls on.

D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E, Discipline, Discipline is the instant willingness and obedience to orders. Self reliance and teamwork, sir!

This should be shouted in every fire academy ever under way and every firefighter I class. Discipline is instilled, forgered. Without order, without structure there is chaos and undisciplined. I repeated this I don't know how many teams for 13 straight weeks. The problem is especially in the volunteer fire service we do not demand obedience in fear of losing a member. If they don't want structure and discipline then I don't want them. If they want it they will obey and stay.

Just a few thoughts.

[hudson144 150]

bfd stated exams,great idea but if it is given by the state you will be grey before you get the results and the career guys call the test day lucky saturday! there is alot of fire officers out there that made out well on lucky saturday. you can't be a good fire officer if you never really did the job as a firefighter. i have seen this in my career prior to retiring and it was always the firefighter who was in there doing the job that he was trained to do. some fire officers are terrible as bosses. but because of some of the civil service rules they get promoted anyway! not all depts. operate the same but what i mentioned does exist and is a hazard to all involved. training is a big part of a career-paid or vol. the fire service is always changing and if you don't go with the tide you will be lost . everyday new ideas,techniques are introduced.it sometimes takes progressive people to make a progressive dept. i wouldn't mention some of the techniques that were used 25 years ago to a new generation of firefighters,they would think we were nuts! many people out there in the crazy world of firefighting are teaching new methods as well as old methods that still are used today. if you want to learn keep yor nose in the books and most of all in the mags that give you the most updated info available. the internet is another great place to pick up on new info. keep digging for knowledge,because its knowledge that may save your life not tradition! be safe!

[CFD320 35]

2 Quick points....

As usual my fellow captain has done a great job suggesting guidelines to attack a common problem.

#1) Volly departments, my own included, need to start electing officers on merit, NOT ON POPULARITY or because it's their "TURN". This goes for every line officer position from lieutenant all the way up to the chief officer! When we cast our votes we MUST remember that we may very well put our LIFE in the hands of the man that is elected. Not your car, not your house, your life!!!!!

#2) Training is key....But make sure you pay attention to what individuals actually do at training sessions. Some guys are hands on, raring to go every evolution. Others are more cerebral, you can actually tell they are thinking about what is going on and why. Then you have the guys that are at every training session, they have a long list of classes completed, but they do nothing and always seem lost. That last guy is the one to look out for, unless you have worked with him you would never know he was a complete dunce. Even more dangerous he probably thinks he is a great fireman with a wealth of knowledge to go along 20 years experience.

In short I think electing the right officers, with the right attitude and right experience goes a long way!

[Guest SQUADco119]

EVERYONE HERE BRINGS UP GREAT POINTS. Im sure im not the only one whenever you go to a fire scene you most likely will see something that seems a little screwy or crazy stupid etc im not just talking about other departments hey im probaly even guilty of it myself. But what people have to realize that it all starts from the command system if you follow the chain of command you should accounter alot less problems. im not going to go into the whole chain of command i think we all know it (I HOPE). Like brought up before i think there are 2 problems well not problems just things that should be adressed and performed before the fire ground. First im going to start with training. I myself dont have a crazy amount of classes but thats not what im talking about im talking about does your department/company train every month or hell every week. Does your members attend the drills and training. If not and every department has this just a core of the same guys come to the drills to actually drill and learn well then why in the hell do we hang on to people that serve no purpose on the fireground, im not talking about older guys whove put thier time in and are too old to come around im talking about the guy whose always thier to eat, be thier if they get reconized you get my drift. basically what im saying is he or she does bare minimun to stay on the active roster. Obviously you dont want to be on the handline with this person. My other topic is adrenaline we all have this, yes we do and if you say you dont your lying to yourself. Maybe you just dont see it or you control it. KEYWORD CONTROL. Ofcourse were gonna have adrenaline as firefighters you kind of have to have it to do what we do but as long as you can control and think and get the task done safely then i its ok. This adrenaline also ties in with training if you have a firefighter who has never felt any heat or doesent parctice strecthcing lines hitting hydrants and other FIREGROUND duties then this person is underskilled and and under trained now give this guy the same adrenaline we all have what do you think is going to happen? Just another thing that eats at me is hearing that guys been around for awhile and you can learn alot from them, which is fine im sure you could but alot of times these are the guys that arent up to speed with the fire service today and yeah this guy might have seen more fire than a 5 year member but does he know the concept of fast teams, survival tactics, TIC etc. I kind of went on a rant here and i could keep going forever im sure i havent brought up anything new to anybody here. Just remember train and you will have less problems ,well you should and dont forget accountbility thats always overlooked too!! STAY SAFE AND TRAIN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! :-k

[Guest]

I agree with all the great points made about knowing your role, and organization. Also i feel that officers should not have to tell his/her firefighters what to do. The fire fighters should know thier job and how to cary out the task. The officer would stay back as a supervisory role and also for command decsions and organization. I dont think they should be baby sitters. It is almost as if some people dont know what to do or when to do it, unless an officer tells them to. Its almost as if the firefighterss dont have a mind of thier own.

This can be accomplished only by proper training and critiqueeing. If the training isorganized and thought out, then there will not be a cluster at the fire, and men and women will b able to do thier job on thier own with the guidance of officers, and not being led by the hand to the fire room with the hose.