FAST- local teams used at own fires?

[hudson144 150]

just curious,are fast teams used during an incident in their own districts that have fast teams,EG;In ******* this am a working fire was transmitted and a call for ******* fast team was activated,22 minutes later *** fast team arrived and fire was under control.how are depts utilizing their own men prior to the arrival of a neighboring fast team (this is no way any intent to bash a response from a neighboring dept so lets not do there!)

[Guest]

The Dept. I volunteer for has a dedicated FAST so when we get a 10-75 "working fire" per our SOG's a FAST is dispatched our primary is Ossining FD, and until there arrival the IC designates members to handle this duty. The most vital time to have the FAST there is at the beginning stages of an incident so I believe, that if its been say 5 mins after dispatch its time to think about calling another FAST. 22 mins is crazy!! The fire is basically over!!

My Dept. SOG states we have to have a minimum of 6 members, otherwise we call another. I believe we need to start using our heads and think about the incident at hand, and either call another FAST to replace your assignment or dispatch them to work with you. Between two Depts. you should be able to get 6+ and be a FAST that is capable of handling whatever the task is.

Just my two cents!!

[xfirefighter484x 234]

First off, I apologize for this, it is a pet peeve of mine. FASTeam, not Firefighter Assist and Search Team team, its redundant. Secondly, the only REAL requirement is to have 2 QUALIFIED personnel outside for every team of 2 inside (OSHA CFR1910.134). As long as there are people on the outside who are qualified, and or trained to handle a situation where they might have to rescue someone, an "official FASTeam" does not have to be in place. It tends to be easier having an outside agency, to free up your own personnel to do the main activities involved with search and rescue, ventilation, suppression, etc....

Having your own department acting as a FAST, sometimes emotions can get in the way of job functions, of a fellow FF were to go down, at least in my opinion, and if an outside department is there, yes it is a brother/sister FF, but it is not "one of their own", if you know what I mean.

Again, a disclaimer, this is just what I have gathered, and my opinions, these are not to be held as law, or "the way things SHOULD be done."

[Remember585 815]

Good topic to bring up. I am sure that by now we are all aware that OSHA requires a "Two In/Two Out" rule for incidents where personnel are operating in IDLH conditions. If your Department is still not dedicating personnel to the rescue of your own you should be ashamed of yourselves - period.

As far as using personnel from within, if you have it go for it. I don't think there is any Departments who can say they don't need help, with some exceptions. We developed not only a FAST but created SOGs that specify what our Ic is required to do. Our SOG states that for all confirmed structural fires that a Mutual Aid team is to be called, and until the arrival of this team we assign personnel to this task. To the best of my recollection, our IC usually looks to our FAST "boss" to take care of this.

Responding as a FAST? You better be quick to get on the road and to get on the scene. I hate the fact that certain agencies continue to play the political game in 2006, regardless of the safety of the personnel. If your neighbors have a FAST, why not call them? If they are notorious for a slow response or a lack of personnel, then not only should they be cut from your Mutual Aid plan, but the powers that be in that agency should inform their Mutual Aid agencies of the deficencies.

We may not get called to a district we border for whatever reason, but we have to drive through it to get to another district that we run primary to - ? As far as I'm concerned, if you are worried about not getting called to someone's next "big one," then bottom line you are an a$$hole. Feel free to disagree with me, or even to hate me, but if you base your Mutual Aid on "getting called by the busier guys," then step down and let someone run your Department that is more concerned with the safety of your personnel!!!! If we never got called 3 towns away because they call someone closer I could care less. We're there for ourselves first, then our neighbors, and, if needed, beyond.

This is a topic very near and dear to me. I hate many other things that go on in "FAST land," but I will save that for another thread and another day."

Edited February 14, 2006 by Remember585

[Guest CFDFASTleader]

The simple fact is this-if you are running a scene make sure you have trained firefighters standing by to assist a downed firefighter operating in dangerous conditions.

The OSHA standard is a minimum and shouldn't be our goal.

Fighting fires still comes down to common sense a lot of the time. Common sense says that you should make sure your people are protected all the time. Set up an internal FAST before your mutual aid gets to the scene and stay on top of the situation so hopefully you won't need them.

[Jason762 2]

The Dept. I volunteer for has a dedicated FAST so when we get a 10-75 "working fire" per our SOG's a FAST is dispatched our primary is Ossining FD, and until there arrival the IC designates members to handle this duty. The most vital time to have the FAST there is at the beginning stages of an incident so I believe, that if its been say 5 mins after dispatch its time to think about calling another FAST. 22 mins is crazy!! The fire is basically over!!

My Dept. SOG states we have to have a minimum of 6 members, otherwise we call another. I believe we need to start using our heads and think about the incident at hand, and either call another FAST to replace your assignment or dispatch them to work with you. Between two Depts. you should be able to get 6+ and be a FAST that is capable of handling whatever the task is.

Just my two cents!!

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6 member fast team will be capable of handling whatever the task is??????? Are you serious??? I'm not sure if you've ever tried moving an unconscious FF in full turnout gear either in training or in real life but 6 members will not cut it. Now add in the possibility of entanglement, entrapment, structural collapse, below grade rescue, etc. Also what if the FF is out of or low on air? Do you have procedures/equipment for that? these are all questions that need answering. I recommend you read John Norman's book "Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics" to get a better idea of how many FF's are really needed. I don't have the book in front of me right now but I believe he states in a real FF down situation you will need at least 12 FF's. Now is this number possible, probably not, not even in most career depts. But to say that a 6 member team will be able to handle any situation is incorrect.

[Guest]

6 member fast team will be capable of handling whatever the task is???????  Are you serious???  I'm not sure if you've ever tried moving an unconscious FF in full turnout gear either in training or in real life but 6 members will not cut it.  Now add in the possibility of entanglement, entrapment, structural collapse, below grade rescue, etc.  Also what if the FF is out of or low on air?  Do you have procedures/equipment for that?  these are all questions that need answering.  I recommend you read John Norman's book "Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics" to get a better idea of how many FF's are really needed.  I don't have the book in front of me right now but I believe he states in a real FF down situation you will need at least 12 FF's.  Now is this number possible, probably not, not even in most career depts.  But to say that a 6 member team will be able to handle any situation is incorrect.

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obviously it is you that has never dragged an unconscious fireman...what building would you be in that 12 brothers can all be involved in a rescue. Unfortunately you have to be able to do it with two or three or else everyone just gets in the way (just asks the brothers who tried to get Richie Sclafani out last year)

[Jason762 2]

obviously it is you that has never dragged an unconscious fireman...what building would you be in that 12 brothers can all be involved in a rescue. Unfortunately you have to be able to do it with two or three or else everyone just gets in the way (just asks the brothers who tried to get Richie Sclafani out last year)

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Well blkcloud to respond to your statement, no thank God, in real life I have never had to drag an unconscious FF, but I do have extensive training in RIT operations. Probably not nearly as much as you seem to have but maybe someday I'll get there. Now to answer this question about what building can we use 12 FF's in? How about any building that experiences a floor collapse into sending the downed FF into the basement which would require several FF's to initiate patient care. Several more FF's to assist in possibly gaining access to the FF, several more to rig a lifting system to raise the downed FF from the basement if you cant remove him from a seperate exit. And several more FF's to shuttle equipment. Well, looks like we are getting close to 12. And as I stated earlier, this is not just my opinion, this is stated in several books, most noteably John Norman's Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics, which is written by a man that saw more fire then you or I ever will. If you haven't read it I recommend you do. Obviously you can't get 12 guys on top of one FF but there is a lot of support work that needs to be done and if its to be done in a timely fashion you need manpower. Its not always as simple as picking up a downed FF and walking out the building.

[Guest 786XP]

Before we start another "I am right and you are wrong" thread here, it is important to look at the practical aftermath of legitimate RIT/FAST rescues.

It is my opinion, that the concept of RIT is grossly overrated and proportionally obtuse for the type of commitment required to remove a trapped fire fighter. Before I get more of those wonderful hate-infested personal messages that some feel the need to send, WAIT!; I am in no way saying that RIT is not necessary or a bad idea!

I believe that we just have not done enough to test our plans to see if they actually work. The concept of RIT is great, if the available resources are also great.

Unfortunately, I think some fire service administrators are kidding themselves when they dispatch a dedicated rescue team of 2 to 6 fire fighters. Most of the time, the RIT is merely "window-dressing" for the incident.

One of the most honest critiques of the RIT application occurred following the death of FF Brett Tarver in a Phoenix supermarket several years ago. Phoenix is without a doubt one of the most progressive Fire Departments in this country and led by one of the most forward thinking Fire Chiefs. However, all of the safety officers, command vehicles, and FAS-Teams (I agree with the earlier writer) could not prevent a Fire Fighter's death.

Instead of creating some spin about the situation (like some Fire Chief's would), the Fire Chief decided to expose the entire Department's deficiencies and truly work to find see if their RIT procedures were actually effective. The result, not even close. The reality was that it took more than 12 Fire Fighters to effect a basic rescue. The same 12 Fire Fighters took almost 25 minutes to locate and remove the victim. This was done in a somewhat controlled environment with some familiarity with the test building.

In a nutshell, if we really want to save one of our own, we had better start dedicated more than one Engine Company with some fancy looking tools and a tarp.

Perhaps an assignment of 2 Engine Companies and a Truck Company might be a better start (more depending on your staffing levels). We also need to remember that one of the greatest challenges comes from our own pride. Many times the Fire Fighter will not call the "mayday" until he/she is well-trapped or in trouble. Early recognition (if possible from the one in trouble) and a cadre of prepared personnel is the key to effective RIT.

We must constantly examine ourselves and our operations to ascertain if they truly work or is it just a great buzz-word for the fire service to use.

PS - Unless the writer who mentioned the rescue of the member of FDNY L103 last year was on scene working with L103 or E290 on the day of the fire (or led the investigation), he/she would be wise NOT to try and speak on the incident's behalf or the effectiveness of FAST at the incident.

Edited February 14, 2006 by 786XP

[CFD320 35]

just curious,are fast teams used during an incident in their own districts that have fast teams,EG;In ******* this am a working fire was transmitted and a call for ******* fast team was activated,22 minutes later *** fast team arrived and fire was under control.how are depts utilizing their own men prior to the arrival of a neighboring fast team (this is no way any intent to bash a response from a neighboring dept so lets not do there!)

←

Back to the original point, all departments should abide by two in two out at all times.

An outside FAST does have its advantages over an internal team.

First, most of the time when a department has a working fire it's often the same old faces you see doing the bulk of the work. This even holds true in large departments, I frequently see the same faces at fires in departments with 500 members. It stands to reason that the firefighters on the outside, although equally vital to the operation MAY not be the "cream of the crop” interior qualified personnel. It makes a ton of since to have a specially trained unit (that work together on a regular basis) going in to rescue a down firefighter. I suggest that IC's that don't subscribe to the FAST/RIT concept to take a few seconds at their next notable incident to quickly survey manpower available at the height of the incident. Ask yourself; if a Mayday were transmitted would feel confident if you were transmitting that mayday? Are their enough good firefighters getting an updated size up, monitoring conditions, identifying egress points, monitoring radio comms? My opinion is that a dedicated FAST/RIT is a no brainier....

Second, the single hardest decision for any FAST or RIT to make: Is the operation rescue or recovery upon activation? A FAST/RIT unit not affiliated with the host department is much less likely to let emotion make that rescue/recovery decision for them. Internal FAST/RIT is much more likely to get themselves into trouble.

That said, 22 min is a bit long, but it happens to everyone...And 6 members is not close to enough IMO.

If you belong to a FAST/RIT it is my opinion that you should be a well qualified, experienced, and intelligent firefighter. You better know you are and not hope you are…

Edited February 14, 2006 by CFD320

[Plectron 1]

I normally dont get involved in these arguments.....but before somebody created the words RIT or FAST....brother firefighters were rescued by other firefighters...it is something that has been done for a long time before fancy names and equipment were put to the task....now i am all for dedicated fast or rit's...but the fact is that most downed firefighters are rescued by their original crew....again dedicated teams are needed and should be in place....before i get everyones irate responses i am a member of a fast and we get called fairly frequently....but facts are facts.....go look at some of the recent studies done on the effectivness of rit's ...not all its cracked up to be

[hudson144 150]

alot of good has been said, i know for a fact that some depts utilize 2 men as the 2 in 2 out rule,this is a smoke screen only because they have to do it by law-2 men aren't going to do anything by themselves when it comes to actively trying to rescue one of their own,while were talking about one of our own i don't agree with the fact that it is an emotional strain on the rescuer's if that was the fact then most major dept's would be calling for mutual aid every time there is afire. its our jobs to carry out rescue tasks especially if our own are involved-if anything it might put a candle under your *** to do more to save your own! ITS ALL ABOUT TRAINING! if you don't train on this as a dept or a company then shame on us-you-them, i know that the training will come later when its too late. someone has mentioned phoenix fd-yes they did a study and it was not only a study it was a hands on drill/training excersise and the outcome is startling. not good at all! be safe and carry on!!!

Edited February 15, 2006 by hudson144

[Guest]

PS - Unless the writer who mentioned the rescue of the member of FDNY L103 last year was on scene working with L103 or E290 on the day of the fire (or led the investigation), he/she would be wise NOT to try and speak on the incident's behalf or the effectiveness of FAST at the incident.

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No I was not on scene for that fire, but the Fatal Fire Report, and personal accounts from that fire all tell the same story...the story is the same as my point, and I think the point of many others who have written on the forum...at that fire, a two story PD with heavy fire in the basement, there was a dedicated FAST Truck, Rescue, Squad and companies assigned to the box all working for the same goal to to get their brother out. The fireman laid unconscious less than ten feet from an exit, but there was limited room to work and many people literally stepping all over each other. Of course more members may be needed for a variety of logistical needs, but my point is the primary job of a rescue is to get our brother outside of the IDLH, by any means neccessary, whether you have two guys or twenty. And being that many of our departments in westchester have man-power issues we should drill on effecting a rescue with as few resources as possible...

[Jason762 2]

No I was not on scene for that fire, but the Fatal Fire Report, and personal accounts from that fire all tell the same story...the story is the same as my point, and I think the point of many others who have written on the forum...at that fire, a two story PD with heavy fire in the basement, there was a dedicated FAST Truck, Rescue, Squad and companies assigned to the box all working for the same goal to to get their brother out.  The fireman laid unconscious less than ten feet from an exit, but there was limited room to work and many people literally stepping all over each other. Of course more members may be needed for a variety of logistical needs, but my point is the primary job of a rescue is to get our brother outside of the IDLH, by any means neccessary, whether you have two guys or twenty. And being that many of our departments in westchester have man-power issues we should drill on effecting a rescue with as few resources as possible...

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How about instead of relying on as few resources as possible you call as many depts. as needed until adequate manpower is on the scene. The fact of the matter is removing a downed FF with only 2 guys or for that matter 6 is a nearly impossible task.

Also I read the same report on the fire in Brooklyn as you mentioned and probably more detrimental to the rescue operation was the lack of coordination between teams. Yes we all want to run in and help when a mayday is transmitted but don't lose focus on the purpose of the RIT. Other op's are supposed to continue while the dedicated team effects the rescue. Coordination is key, manpower is key.

[Guest]

How about instead of relying on as few resources as possible you call as many depts. as needed until adequate manpower is on the scene.  The fact of the matter is removing a downed FF with only 2 guys or for that matter 6 is a nearly impossible task. 

Also I read the same report on the fire in Brooklyn as you mentioned and probably more detrimental to the rescue operation was the lack of coordination between teams.  Yes we all want to run in and help when a mayday is transmitted but don't lose focus on the purpose of the RIT.  Other op's are supposed to continue while the dedicated team effects the rescue.  Coordination is key, manpower is key.

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True...you are right

[Remember585 815]

#1 - 1191stdue said "6+ firefighters." He didn't say six. I can attest to what he says because we are on the same team. The more the merrier right? Unless you go to certain towns where they actually criticize you for having too many people.

#2 - The lack of fireground accountability is and it appears will always be our own worst enemy. Do we use it? How well do we use it and when do we actually use it? After the MAYDAY? No good! It's past the time for the County's Departments to start using ONE accountability system.

#3 - If you don't believe in FAST / RIT / FART - whatever it is called, then I suggest taking the FAST class given by NYS. It opened my eyes (everytime I took it) to some new tactics and some new theories that we have incorporated into our training and our SOGs.

Bottom line, whether it is a FAST, extra manpower, extra rigs, etc. - you can always cancel the resources if you don't need them, but you shouldn't wait until it is too late.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Remember585

[ny10570 745]

The twelve firefighters to rescue one firefighter number thats being thrown around here came from an after incident report in Arizona (phoenix I believe). They found that for each downed firefighter they rescued there were at least 12 other firefighters directly involved in the rescue. If anyone wants more info they can PM me and I'll dig it up for them.

Edited February 15, 2006 by ny10570

[FirNaTine 370]

Guys just remember, like BC. John Salka and BC. John Norman from FDNY always state, a quick, properly placed and adequately supplied initial attack handline saves more Lives, including those of Firefighters more often, than any other tool on the fireground, including Ladders. Get the 1'st and appropiate size handline into operation as fast as possible and a majority, if not all your problems are solved, or at least minimized, hopefully, eliminating the need for any FAST TEAM. In my opinion, the FAST TEAM concept should have been introduced and implemented years ago, especially when many of the Departments had adequate manpower. Unforunately, Departments now, are implementing a FAST TEAM POLICY or at least trying too, when they don't even have enough personnel to get this 1'st hoseline into operation or to even carry out the always necessary and essential, initial ventilation! It drives me nuts to constantly hear guys ask one another after a JOB, was a FAST TEAM standing buy, and wanting to hang the IC, only to find almost every window still intact, the roof nut cut, the bulkhead door still closed in M/D's, secondary searches not even begun, let alone completed, skylights still in place and only two lines in operation when there should have been at least three if not four lines in operation. But everything is all well and good folks because we had our FAST TEAM or should I say Smoke Screen standing buy in case of an Emergency, which in my DEPT., usually consists of two men. If your Dept. is lucky enough to have the resources to immediately institute a FAST TEAM and at the same time initiate an effective and aggressive interior attack on a Fire than by all means, I say do it. But if peoples lives are at stake when you pull up, than all available personnel should be put to work, even if this means calling in a neighboring Dept. on Mutual Aid to standby at the scene as your FAST TEAM. Lets worry more about accomplishing the Basics Tasks to achieve our number one goal and that is to SAVE LIFE AND PROPERTY by putting the FIRE OUT instead of always worrying about how many guys are or were standing buy in the front of the building in case the $hit hit the fan! If everyone available initially, does their job, which for the most part is just remembering and carrying out the Basics or as some Instructors put it, the BREAD and BUTTER of Firefighting, I honestly believe more civilian and probably firefighters lives' would be saved regardless of the number of personnel standing buy. Yes, there will be times where the unforseen happens at a Fire and members are going to get seriously injured, if not killed, but if you look at many of the investigations into LOD deaths and injuries, many times they are the result of the members themselves or their comrades not following the proper procedures and their Depts.SOP's. Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the need for an established FAST TEAM POLICY, I just think when your working in a Dept. that's understaffed to begin with, your number one concern should not be how many guys can you assemble to stand fast in front of the Fire Bldg. when you have a GOOD JOB going and a definite or potentially severe LIFE HAZARD present, and barely enough personnel to carry out the BASICS. If you don't extinguish that Fire as quickly as possible, with the minimum number of men at hand, you can almost guarantee yourself a loss of life, including firefighters. In my opinion, by deploying all your available manpower to carrry out all the critical tasks that must be accomplished in the initial stages of a Fire, within a reasonable amount of time, you'll greatly reduce your chances of ever having to utilize a FAST TEAM, and can make use of them in some other area or return them to service as fast as you requested them. Stay Safe and Healthy Brothers!

[Guest SQUADco119]

WHAT 1191STDUE WAS SAYING THAT WE REQUIER A MINIMUM OF 6 BUT WE BRING AND HAVE MORE GUYS ON THE TEAM.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

For some reason I think I've taught of few of you FASt that posted on this thread. Taking some of the comments made and some of the facts stated.

Some of the arguments are those arguing over points they actually agree on.

Phoenix FD did say in a report that according to their studies it takes 12 to rescue 1. Find you a building that 12 people can operate in. I can every single time, never said they had to be all at the same time and that is often the mistake of some FAST leaders is they send to many people in at the same time and they run out of air around the same time.

6 firefighters can not handle almost every situation as a FASt. In fact they can handle very few. If you are finding that with your FAST training, you need to kick it up a notch and make it more realistic. Can they handle many, absolutely. Most situations will require more resources.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

First off, I apologize for this, it is a pet peeve of mine. FASTeam, not Firefighter Assist and Search Team team, its redundant. Secondly, the only REAL requirement is to have 2 QUALIFIED personnel outside for every team of 2 inside (OSHA CFR1910.134). As long as there are people on the outside who are qualified, and or trained to handle a situation where they might have to rescue someone, an "official FASTeam" does not have to be in place. It tends to be easier having an outside agency, to free up your own personnel to do the main activities involved with search and rescue, ventilation, suppression, etc....

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For some reason I think I've taught of few of you FASt that posted on this thread.  Taking some of the comments made and some of the facts stated.

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I can say I have sat through FAST where you were one of the instructors alsfirefighter.

I just wanted to correct something I stated earlier. I had said the for every 2 person team, there needs to be 2 FF on the outside, whereas it only says that if there is anyone operating inside, no matter how many people, there has to be AT LEAST on 2 person team outside! Sorry for any misquotes, or bad info on my part!

[Guest]

OK, let me vent. Stop using NY City as an example. There manpower and tactics are unique. Most of the firefighters they lose are lost above the fire. And they can send 100, 200, 300 firefighters to a fire.

How is this for and idea. Don't push into or above a fire without a charged hoseline present. Otherwise it is Russian roulette. Use thermal imagers. They are not fool proof, but thery are a gigantic help. Use a search rope if possible. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. Don,t get lost. Train physically to prevent heart attacks. Know your buildings, they are your enemy. And stop thinking that FAST teams that arrive 20 minutes after the fact with ridiculous tower ladders, burnt helmets and digital cameras will save your a** if you get in a jam.

FAST operations - Foolish and Sometimes Tragic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Remember585 815]

Well put victor!

[Guest tfd193]

13victor....

you are sadly mistaken if you do not believe in the tactics used by FDNY.

[Guest]

OK TFD, why am I sadly mistaken????? Their tactics are based on a minimum first due response of around 32-45 personnel, depending on whether or not rescues and squads are assigned. Each additional alarm brings 15-20 more. DO YOU HAVE THAT MANPOWER????

As for the actual operations, yes they are aggressive. But do you have the experience to operate in or above a fire without the protection of a handline??? Operating above a fire without a handline is how many LODD occur. Even in FDNY. Their tactics are theirs. A recent documentary called "Brotherhood" documented life in the FDNY after 911.One scene was a Captain in training speaking to new pobies on their first day. He clearly states: "This is the FDNY; we do things OUR WAY!!!!!!!!!" He also goes on to tell these 1st day probies that someone in that class is going to die in the line; that things like that just happen.

If you want to emulate that sort of firefighting philosophy, maybe you are the one who is sadly mistaken. Maybe instead of emulating the FDNY you should learn sound firefighting practices. YOU CANNOT OPERATE LIKE FDNY!!!!!!! All of their operations support their philosophy and all members are on the same page. Just because you have a burnt helmet and an FDNY t-shirt does not make you qualified to be an OV and make a "push" on the floor above the fire. The consistent obsession with emulating FDNY firefighters is dangerous. Yes they are fantastic firefighters, but they are unique!!!!!! Get your own identity!!!!!!!!!

[Guest mnfbhmc1]

how can some departments be called a FAST team when 98% of the team members are not properly trained or guailified or dont hold drills every month,is it better to tag a company as the fast team or use a rotation with the other companys in there department

[Guest tfd193]

Although most departments probably do not have the manpower thre FDNY does, in fact probably none do. Many of their techniques and tactics can be adopted and used very effectively. For example, you bring up the OV. The OV is a very neccessary position or job however your department operates that must be fulfilled. Maybe you do not call it OV, but if you don't have someone doing the OV job, I cant imagine what it must be like to be on the line in your department. As far as the documentary you speak of, I know nothing about it but I would question what house it was filmed in. As far as members being on the same page, it is up to the officers and chiefs to get everyone on the same page in your department and that has nothing to do with the city, that should be a goal in every dept. And to insinuate that FDNY does not practice sound firefighting techniques is irrational.

[Guest BrotherFF]

tfd193, all 13victor is saying is what works for FDNY may not or should not work for everyone. You seem to be misquoting and misinterpeting him....He's not saying anything bad about them at all. I don't know where you are reading his posts, but I agree with what he posted here....don't just copy what FDNY is doing because they are FDNY. Do what works best...and safest...for you and your department. And firefighters in the FDNY see a lot more fire then your average suburban FF, so they are able to through experience do things other FF's cant-like the whole floor above thing. They have a lot more manpower...a lot more everything the ordinary department doesn't...therefore, they have different procedures. Can we learn SOME from them....of course, I dont think anybody debates that....but should we follow everything they do.....of course not.

Edited February 20, 2006 by BrotherFF

[Guest]

Answer to TFD: Brotherhood was a documentary filmed post- 9/11 and focused on Rescue 4, Rescue 1 and Squad 252.

And by "sound firefighting practices" I meant that you should learn how to be a firefighter, not a person that molds their existence as a firefighter after the FDNY. Study firefighting, not FDNY. They do use sound firefighting principles for them. Not for everybody.

Back to the FAST team: What does a FAST team assemble in the way of equipment?? Do you send a truck or an engine??

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Whether you send a truck or engine doesn't matter. As long as you have the basic necessary equipment to function is important. Much of what is listed in the state curriculum books as the minimum is exactly that, the minimum.

What I do highly recommend is that every FAST/RIT utilize a operational checklist at every call to ensure you have all your tools staged and other functions are being performed. When doing this at a drill, get a stop watch and time every function that a assemble team operating at the drill performs. You may need a couple people and watches to do this. Every drill this should be performed and at every drill you should look at shaving off seconds. Remember every few seconds on every function can add up to minutes, minutes a down firefighter may not have in air supply and even seconds can count.

To the last FAST class at Camp Smith, fantastic job by all!!