What kills morale in volunteer companies?

[Guest E53LT]

OK, so I got an email a while back from a friend titled "13 Ways to Kill a Volunteer Fire Company". Anyone want to add to the list? Maybe through communication people can bring something back to their companies....

1. Don't attend training or meetings, but if you do, arrive late.

2. Be sure to leave before the meeting is over.

3.When at a business meeting, vote yes to everything and then do nothing to help.

4. The next day (or right after the meeting) find fault with your board of directors and officers.

5. Take no part in volunteer company business.

6. Do not pay attention at training. Stay in the back and talk to another member. (Nobody will notice)

7. Show up for the fires, but nothing else.

8. Talk cooperation. Don't cooperate.

9. If you are asked to help, always say you are too busy.

10. Never read anything pertaining to the organization or the fire service in general. You might learn too much.

11. Never accept an office; it is much easier to criticize than to actually do anything.

12. If appointed to a committee, never give it any time. Let the chairman do all the work.

13. Don't do anything more than the bare minimum. Then when others willingly and unselfishly use their ability to help the cause scream and yell that the VFC is run by a clique.

I'll add a couple of my own:

1. Remind people that new techniques and training is unnecessary, "this is the way we've always done it"

2. Allow people who used to be in charge dictate to those currently in power how things "should be" on a daily basis. Make sure the phrase "when I was chief" is used.

3. Use the excuse "we're just volunteers, they can't do anything to us" to justify bad behavior, incompetence and complacency.

I've posted this with the intent to spark creative and positive discussion.

[JBE 328]

Join up and not be accepted by the ruling clique in the department. Those whose parents or grandparents were members and who haven't let stupid High School BS stay where it belonged, in High School.

[Guest]

When "cleaning up" at the end of call, never actually do that, just sit in the middle of traffic and do nothing. Expect someone else to do it for you.

When asked to do a task, look at the person asking like they have just spoken Chinese. ME DO WORK? I'm not getting paid.

Do only a half assed job because you aren't getting paid for it.

Don't teach anything to the new vollys...they can learn from someone else.

[FirNaTine 370]

Hey guys, don't feel to bad. Believe it or not, these are the exact same ways to kill the morale in a Career Department. The only difference is those who are lazy and incompetent are getting paid for it and in some Depts., quite a substantial amount. That's what really pisses me off!

[ex-commish 490]

How about " I didn't get my way so I quit my position"

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Remember585 815]

I like these...

"I'm a volunteer, I don't have to do that."

"It's going to be a false alarm like it always is."

"I don't do training lectures."

"It's his/her turn to be Officer."

"Vote for him, the other one is worse."

"We need more meetings then drills or nobody will come around."

And my #1 favorite....

Is when other members or even other companies KNOW they have issues with manpower and training but would rather get pissed when help from other companies / departments pitch in. Get the job done!!!!! Stop hiding in the shadows thinking all is fine - it isn't! I don't think there is a single outfit that doesn't have either a training or a manpower issue. Spend less time at parades and parties - spend more time drilling and learining. And lastly, spend less time going to meetings and association meetings - and go to the firehouse and pitch in!

Rant out....

[Guest alsfirefighter]

1. Don't have established written policies and SOG's.

2. Have written policies and SOG's and don't follow and/or enforce them, or only when you see it fit, or by person to person.

3. Lack of organized training that leads to figuring out what your gonna train on in a whim and then don't have a organized lesson plan to follow.

4. Use excuses that its not possible because there isn't any money when you haven't even asked. At least go to bat for it.

5. Treat new members like they are aliens or day laborers. Even worse call them probies, I think calling a volunteer a probie is ridiculous. They are members and there is a place for everyone in the volunteer fire service. A probie is a person who can lose their job in a year if they don't hack it. In the volunteer fire service its the leaderships responsibility to find a fit for everyone who wants to help.

6. Discard any input from others because your way is the only way. Listen for a minute it might just work. If its skill based have several members try it out.

7. Having unqualified, inexperienced and/or immature officers. Particulary the ones whom can't deal with others properly. Regardless of how long you've been a member, whether its one hour, 1 year or a 100 years, they are all adults.

Can't think of any more right now but thats not bad for 7.

[Guest]

wow that number 7 sounds like the company i'm in. the officers think it's o.k. to ride on top of the engine to fire calls! their way or no way.

[IzzyEng4 427]

How about " I didn't get my way so I quit my position"

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

←

Hey Chief, got to include to that

"..And I'm joining another company / department!"

Heard this many of times

[grumpyff 1,159]

How about comissioners who:

- tell the chief how to run the department

-discourage training because turnout gear may get damaged, or someone may get hurt.

-discourage/prevention of any type of EMS training( even CPR &basic first aid) because we only go to fires, not EMS calls. They assume that an ambulance will always be on scene.

-refusing to purchase radios for every riding position on its apparatus not because of budget limitations but because people will just talk on them.

-study every option to death, and nickel and dime every decission made in the dept.( I know they are responsible for the budget, but there comes a time to %$# or get off the pot).

-exremely proud that the tax rate was only increased less than 1% per year for over 7 years, while the buildings and apparatus fall apart. Your first due apparatus is over 20 years old, and showing its age,but the members are told they should take better care of what they have( I am all for maintenace, and proactive servicing, but everything has a lifespan). Some of the older members, (35 years +) rightly complain about the conditions of the firehouse, and they are told "you need to play with the team". There is being fiscally responsible, and there is just being miserly with your money.

-treat their members like garbage or children despite whatever training or professional knowledge they may have from other FD/PD/EMS agencies they have volunteered or worked for. The 'that can't happen here, or that is not the way we do things here" mentality.

the "100 years of tradition unimpeded by change" mentality.. i.e "We have always done it this way, so this is the ONLY way we will do things."

Edited February 7, 2006 by grumpyff

[ex-commish 490]

Hey Chief, got to include to that

"..And I'm joining another company / department!"

Heard this many of times

←

And we had a few do that and you know what....they are either missed nor did it make any difference and that's what I tell anyone that threatens to leave....

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[JBE 328]

When it comes to training, especially if one gets hurt, I will paraphrase a saying from Richard Marcinko, former Navy Seal and original CO of Seal Team Six. "The more you sweat in training, the less you get hurt for real" The other which may not neccesarily apply is, "If you sustain various bumps and bruises, then you're doing it right." I use the sweat one with people who work for me. The more your head hurts drilling, the less likely you are to screw it up for real.

Edited February 7, 2006 by JBE

[ajsbear 11]

How about officers who have no interpersonal skills and don't know how to deal with people. Think they rule and micro manage.

Also officers who look at the rules not as guidlines but as something to follow to the letter. Rules are guides as every department is different and every situation needs to be looked at as individual happenings and then desided on. To just say those are the rules, I'm the _____ and thats it doesn't buy it these days.

[Guest E53LT]

How about chiefs who so can't stand the thought of a call being run without them, they give orders to the on-scene I/C via Nextel in direct contradiction to the officer IN the building?

Chiefs who preach rules and discipline, but allow their cronies to get away with everything while making examples of others?

Here's one I've seen on the EMS side of the house: Vital EMS equipment needed to the tune of $1200. Special pads for the AED that will allow it to be used on a child. Spend the money? NO! Let's wait and see if any donations come in from that kid that got killed last weekend. Next order of business? Motion to approve $1000 deposit for DJ for corps. dinner.

It is sad that all of these great examples that we're giving on this thread are things that have pushed great people out the door. I posted it because I'm trying to re-discover what made me enjoy volunteering so much in the beginning....

[Jason762 2]

In reading all these posts it makes me further realize one thing, the volunteer fire service is/should be, a thing of the past. Do we have problems in the career fire service? Yes, absolutely. But, do we put the public at risk? Absolutely not. We are a group of highly trained, experienced, and motivated professionals that provide an essential service to the public.

These problems that are brought up time and time again by so many volunteers, from so many departments are serious life threatening problems. You are putting the public at large in great danger (and yourselves) because of incompetance/bad attitudes. Yes there are many good vollies, but there are so many of the other type as well. We all know the type, the Gall's clothing wearer, multi-pager carrying, been there done that even though he/she has never been into a fire or actually performed in a professional manner or helped save a life. These are the types that are killing the vol. fire service. Folks, this is not a game, many people, includong ourselves, actually die. Would you hire a doctor to perform a surgery on you that was doing it on a voluntary basis, because he liked to help people. No, you would choose the best trained, most highly educated doctor, that does it for a living, and will do the best job. So many innappropriate attitudes have come out on many recent posts (ex. why should I go on the BS calls when there are career guys to do it). Your attitudes make you look unproffesional and the grammar and spelling of some makes you look like a child (but that is a little off topic).

These are deep rooted problems that stem back generations, before myself and many others were even involved in the fire service. There is no changing them. Try and try as you might, it will NEVER change. Vollies as a whole will be less trained, less manpower will show up at calls, the firehouses will still be places to congregate as social clubs (AKA cheap beer), and the members will have far less experience in dealing with actual emergencies. Through my relatively short time in the fire service I have been a member of both the vol and career fire service. I have seen how both sides operate. I have many friends still involved in the vollies, and the differences are NIGHT and DAY. As a disclaimer so this post won't get deleted, I am not picking on any one FF or FD this is a general statement about the fire service as a whole. I could go on but I'm sure this pissed off enough of you so I'll stop here for now. Yes we all have problems, but when it comes right down to it public safety is not the number 1 priority in most communities.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Jason,

Speaking from personal experience, these types of people also thrive in the paid/career depts. as well. True, volunteers can use more training, who can't. I have met, and worked with highly dedicated volunteers who took every single class they could get into, even if meant spending their own funds to do it. I have also worked with people (PD) who have B$tched and moaned about every training class they were paid to attend. Imagine getting paid to sit in a class on NIMS, or a two day class on response to nuclear,biological, and radiological attacks, with training on level C suits and decon procedures, and compaining about it. I see it at every training class I go to, including our twice annual firearms requalification.

Your attitudes make you look unproffesional and the grammar and spelling of some makes you look like a child (but that is a little off topic).

Try going to some rant sites such as NYPDrant and you will see childish behavior and poor spelling. Most of the people on here a trying to improve themselves, and in turn the departments they work and/or volunteer for.

This topic was started not to bash

I posted it because I'm trying to re-discover what made me enjoy volunteering so much in the beginning....

.

I can feel where E53Lt is coming from. I did 16 years in one dept., as a volunteer. I had some great times, and learned immense amounts of knowledge from both career and volunteer firefighters. I left because i could no longer afford to live in that community. Yes, the BS wears you down, and can make you bitter, as you can see from my last post in this topic. Right now i have not volunteered in my new community because I am recovering from a herniated disc, that after 7 months is still giving me problems with strength and flexibility. In my time out of the volunteer fire service I learned I missed the commeraderie of brother/sister firefighters, the chance to help my commmunity ( which a paid service would overwhelm the tax system), and a chance to learn/teach/exchange information/techniques with other firefighters. If anyone is getting tired of whatever is going on their depts., take a leave of absence, and take a break. Come back if you decide you miss volunteering, but come back with a fresh attitude, and don't let the BS get to you as much. Paid does not always mean better.

Edited February 7, 2006 by grumpyff

[Jason762 2]

Like I said, there are problems in the career fire service as well, but the level of service provided by an all career fire dept. far exceeds that by a vol dept. We show up to every call on the first request (no need for 2nd and 3rd req for a response or additional manpower), all members are trained to at least a minimum requirement (no exterior only FF's, or social members), and we get on the scene quickly which reduces fire loss by limiting the extent of the fire and gives a much better chance to save a life, either by making a grab or arriving quickly for an EMS run. Like you said, there are good vollies, they take lots of classes, they care about quality service, but they are the minority and as we all know it takes more than a few good FF's to do the job. Also it seems (and I'm sure many will disagree) that the most motivated vollies actually want to and sometimes do become career FF's and (as they should) leave the ranks of vollies. And yes there are some career guys that complain about being in class all day, but guess what, they are still in class all day, thus giving them more knowledge to take back to the firehouse with them allowing them to provide a higher level if service.

As for the tax system comment, I guess YOU can put a price tag on the cost of someones life. I will not. If the average person understood firefighting, the manpower needs to effectively control a fire, and how quickly fire spreads, they would not feel safe under the current vol system. How many people will show up to a call? Who knows... How quickly will they show up? Who knows... You get my point. .

In addition, you are wrong, paid is better. Better level of service, better response time, better manpower (both in quantity and quality). The vol. system leaves too many question marks (?) that cannot be answered. Its time to employ some progressive, forward thinking. Vol. numbers are decreasing, minimum standards are increasing, this country has changed a "little" since Ben Franklin formed the first "modern" vol. fire company in 1736. Its time to start looking for solutions instead of holding onto the past. It may cost more money but can we each put a price tag on our own and our loved ones lives?

[JBE 328]

I gotta tell you, after 8 years the bitterness goes away. I joined a volunteer ambulance corps here in the city and saw the same garbage I saw upstate. Needless to say I never went back. I miss riding the rigs. I miss going to emergencies/fires. I don't necessarily miss the parades.

[ajsbear 11]

Jason one thing to remember, a vast majority of Career/paid personel come out of the volunteer ranks. In addition many of the career FF's still volunteer in their home communities.

[IzzyEng4 427]

No matter who, what, where when and how, the problem is still the same. Plain and simple it boils down to personality conflics and also the "I'm better than you" attitude" co-workers give each other. Trust me, I'm going through it right now with some members at my company. You can't change people's attitudes until they will do it themselves. But for me personally, I rather talk to a brick wall but that will never solve anything. As they say it's SSDD and usually never greener on the otherside. It's too bad.

WORK TOGETHER PEOPLE!!!!!!

[ex-commish 490]

Today I recieved my monthly issue of Firehoue and one of the articles was about the decline of volunteers and it was summed up to leadership. It was written by Harry Carter who retired as a chief from Newark FD and has many years in the volunteer fire service. It was a well written, objective look at the problems we face and I suggest you all read it especially if you are in a leadership position.

One thing I will say is I hope someday we will no longer elect our leaders and appoint them based on experience and training. I also feel there should be a mandatory state standard for officers.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Jason762 2]

Jason one thing to remember, a vast majority of Career/paid personel come out of the volunteer ranks. In addition many of the career FF's still volunteer in their home communities.

←

Well that is pretty much what I said. The best of the volunteers leave those ranks to become career guys leaving th volunteers with "the rest". This isn't the case always, but quite often it is. As for volunteering after you become a career guy, it certainly is frowned upon by the union, and the guys should not be doing it. They are opening themselves up to all kinds of potential problems. But that is a whole 'nother topic.

[Guest]

You know what kills morale...

1. If you dont have the time to join the department then DONT!!!! There is nothing worse than having 50 members on the rolls but half of them have 2 jobs and or school of some kind, oh yea and a family.

I'd rather have 5 people I can rely on than 50 people who have a time window to make alarms. which is maybe one hour of one day of one week a month. Nothing is worse than sitting on that ramp waiting and wondering if your company of 50 "have other things" to do.

Im tired of hearing "well this is a volunteer organization, blah blah" If you cant do it dont do it. The way it was explained to me was " you volunteer to raise your hand to join, training night, sunday morning, and 25% of alarms are expected and is only a minimum requirement "

HA as im writing this a commerical for the Deer Park FD comes on for recruitment.

[210 91]

Well that is pretty much what I said.  The best of the volunteers leave those ranks to become career guys leaving th volunteers with "the rest".  This isn't the case always, but quite often it is.  As for volunteering after you become a career guy, it certainly is frowned upon by the union, and the guys should not be doing it.  They are opening themselves up to all kinds of potential problems.  But that is a whole 'nother topic.

←

"The Rest" Doctors, lawyers, accountants, mechanics, pilots, cops etc. Not everyone as the desire to be a career firefighter. Many other interesting careers out there and with better pay. Alot of good dedicated volunteers left after the "best" go career.

[210 91]

You know what kills morale...

1.  If you dont have the time to join the department then DONT!!!!  There is nothing worse than having 50 members on the rolls but half of them have 2 jobs and or school of some kind, oh yea and a family.

Jobs, school, and family is called having a life. Not saying you do but not everyone can hang around the firehouse waiting for the bells to ring.

[FirNaTine 370]

Sorry, but I've just heard about enough of how Career guys are more experienced, better trained, dedicated and all around more professional than those that Volunteer their services. I was a Volunteer in my Department prior to becoming a Career member and can honestly say after 25 years of firefighting experience, 22 of which are Career years, there seems to be no drastic difference between the level of service each organization provides and delivers to the citizens they protect. Yes it's true in some Volunteer Depts., there can be some lengthy response times to incidents which unfortunately may lead to a substantial amount of property loss or even death, but I've seen the same unfortunate results happen in many Career Depts., especially my own, who's response times are some of the quickest around. Why you ask? ATTITUDE! It doesn't matter if your Paid or Volunteer, if you don't give a hoot about your job whether your getting paid to do it or not, everyone is going to suffer, both the Public and your brother firefighters. I've worked with some real winners over the years, both Volunteer and Paid and can honestly say it's an individual's attitude that makes or breaks a Department. It doesn't matter how many hours of training one has or how quick you get to a scene, if you can't remember and apply what you have learned you are no good to anyone, including yourself. Both Career and Volunteer Depts. have their share of Foundation Saves. I've responded many times to what started out as minor Jobs, literally around the corner from our Quarters, and after all was said and done, myself and the rest of my career brothers were standing in front of yet, another Parking Lot. Sometimes I begin to think we reign in Urban Renewal. Yes, there are times it's caused by a lack of manpower and equipment but on more than one occassion, it's the end result of incompetence starting from our Depts. Leadership right down to the paid staff on the 1'st due apparatus and those who follow. Even Professional Depts. like FDNY, with all the manpower they have, have their share of foul ups. I've heard this from many of their members, both firefighters and Officers alike, many of whom are highly respected and well known throughout the Fire Service Community. And You know what? Many of them were and still are Volunteer Firefighters. Imagine that! Good Luck to All and Stay HEALTHY and SAFE!

[X2321 133]

Jason, It was hard to read your comments and not feel the need to reply. Lets get a couple of things straight here. Just the fact that you use the term volly leads me to believe that you once were a volunteer and now your a career guy, but forgot where you came from. You say you have been in the fire service for a short time, but you seem to have alot of opinions. I don't know what your situation in Connecticut is, but it sounds like there is some friction between your career dept. and your ex-volunteer dept. Please don't spread your Ct. problems into Westchester. In my profession I see fire depts. in Westchester work on a daily basis, both career and volunteer. Do some need improvements, of course. There are career and volunteer depts. that can use improvements in manpower, training and equipment. There are some really great career depts. in Westchester, like Yonkers and New Rochelle to name a few. There are also some really great volunteer depts. like Ossining and Mamaroneck to name a few. How can you make a statement like the level of service provided by a career dept. far exceeds that of a volunteer dept. Have you ever seen Ossining or Mamaroneck work ? I didn't think so. I see these depts get on the road just as fast as some career depts do, with just as much trained manpower if not more. I have been in the volunteer fire service for 27 years, and have gone up through the ranks to be chief of dept. on two different occasions. First of all, contrary to your comment, volunteer firefighters have more training know than in the past. Its a fact Jason, not just something coming out of my mouth. Also firehouses are no longer aka social clubs with free beer. Some of them were when I first joined in the late 70's, but very few at least in Westchester are any more. The one thing that I will agree with you on is that public safety is not the # 1 priority in some communities, but why bash the volunteer fire service for that problem. In my dept. everytime we tried to buy a piece of equipment or put a small addition on the firehouse it went out to a vote, and it always got voted down, so we made due with what we had or tried to find the money some other way. As far as your comment about spelling and grammar on this site, keep in mind that there are some junior members that belong to EMTBravo, and maybe they mispell a word from time to time, or even a senior member who types a little fast, but what does that have to do with being a good firefighter. By the way I looked up a word you used earlier, "nother" I couldn't find it in the dictionary. Finally one of your last comments, how a career guy shouldn't volunteer after he becomes a career guy because its frowned upon by the union. I'm willing to bet that you are an officer in your local. This is not a problem in Westchester, Rockland or Putnam. Can you imagine what it would be like if FDNY guys were not allowed to volunteer in the communities that they lived in. Many of them do and they play a vital role in their volunteer fire depts. Some of them are training officers or just help with training, some of them are line officers and even chiefs. Be safe Jason, and good luck in your career job.

[GAW6 66]

Well said X2321!!!

[Guest 786XP]

X2321 Reply -

[To Jason 762 - Finally one of your last comments, how a career guy shouldn't volunteer after he becomes a career guy because its frowned upon by the union. I'm willing to bet that you are an officer in your local.]

How much is the bet? I would like to "buy-in" on that one.................

[Irons 0]

X2321, well said brother! While this is a great website, I wish it would turn more into an outlet for LEARNING, Learning how to be a better and safer firefighter, an exchange of fire training tips or stories which may help a brother or sister out in time of need. This is such a dangerous line of work we choose to be in and these threads are being spewed with hate, malice and plain old BS. And yes Brother, we are being baffled by some of the best in the business here, Im sure all these posters have done it all, crawled down many a hallway in their day ....YEAH RIGHT.

How bout we rename this thread....How to BUILD morale in FIRE DEPARTMENTS?

Hey that would be productive!!! Lets see if it works?