Poor Training levels in my dept.

[firemoose827 324]

Hello. HELLLLLP!! I am in a fire department that is filled with people who think State training classes are a joke. They firmly believe that whatever training they get in-house is more than enough to pack up and go interior. There are actually quite a few guys who have little to no State courses in their file and yet they want to run for officer! I have tried numerous times to make a point that training is important, and that I realy do not want to go interior with any of those guys, and they just end up making me out to be the stupid one. They think that its funny that I would actually take a class more than once every 2-3 years to refresh and learn of any new techniques.

I am hoping to run for officer soon, and I am seeking any advice that I might use to turn the training standards around for the better.

Does anyone else have similar problems?

I know that in-house training, conducted by experienced officers or ff's is just as important, but I dont agree its the ONLY training you need.

Any advice would be appreciated. Stay safe out there everyone.

[Guest 786XP]

My advice, get out. From what you are stating, it appears to be a systemic problem of the company/department. I normally advocate change from within, but I also know how completely corrupt some of these organizations can be (there is no labor organization to protect the rights of the employee).

If you have any aspirations of being a responsible fire fighter/fire officer you will have little success amidst such complete foolishness. I would seek out other organizations within your area and look to make a change.

The questionable traits of this organization tend to be learned over time and passed on to new members (who begin to believe this is the way everywhere operates). You have already taken a step in the right direction by speaking out, now you just need to find the right home.

[Irons 0]

Brother Jones, u sound like an enthusiastic guy. Try to invite, nicely, some of these members to a course to show them that most of the state courses are actually pretty good and hopefully stress the basics. You can only try your best to convey that TRAINING is so important in today's day and age especially with fewer and fewer fires out there. The attitude change can begin with you brother..Good Luck!

Stay safe all

[ex-commish 490]

First, I see a leadership an issue to allow members to function as firefighters without formal training. And I am not knocking in anyway in-house training in fact I am a big proponent of it but it should be supplemental and not take the place of training you can recieve at training facillities. While my department trains every month on different topics we also mandate all new members to go through FF1 and officers to take command classes. Our drivers have to take EVOC and also pump ops. HAZMAT ops is also required.

As a chief I firmly believe issues like these begin at the top. Perhaps you should sit down with your chief and officers and discuss your concerns...you never know it may spark something and begin to turn things around. And being you are going to be an officer, you will be in a position to initiate change....trust me from experience it will not be easy but when you put what is right first you can move mountains. Good luck to you.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[firemoose827 324]

You are exactly right on the leadership. Last years elections were depressing because of the level of qualifications needed to be an off. Line off's need ff1 for 3 years, 2 state incident command courses, hazmat awareness,pump ops and qualification on all trucks. Asst chief needs all above plu ladder ops and 1 add command course with 2 years as line off, and chief needs hazmat 1st resp with 3 years as asst. This past year we left two lieutenants positions "Opened, to be appointed as candidates become available"!!! because no one is taking courses. I transferred from Richmondville FD to the one I am in now and I have been here for two years. I have all the required classes but I am still trying to get the complacent off's to get me out on all of the trucks. I have 17 overall years service and I cant get anyone to take me out and qualify me. Ill get them out there though one way or the other.

Thanks for the advice guys, it is definately appreciated.

[348 4]

first, i recommend that Jones attend Firehouse expo or FDIC and learn self rescue. i would be nervous if the brothers you are going into fires with don't feel the need or have no ambition to train or learn. second, the situation 786xp refers to places many lives- career, vollie, and civilian in danger. As the uneducated try to protect their fifedoms they make the situation worse.

[firecapt32 282]

Well let me in on this issue-- Training is the most important thing you can do in the fire service. You dont have fires every day-- so you have to be prepared for the one thats out there.

Jones- if you are as frustrated as you sound--the laws are on your side. osha 1910.156 fire bragades standards. 1910.120. haz mat 1910.156 all apply to the fire service. Do the Fire Official in the village , town, or fire district - know whats going on?? or are they blinded by the red lights and sirens. Are things the same as they have been for 100 years?

Do they have the " they are doing the best they can" "theyare only voilunteers" mentality

Thiose days are long over-- hang in there -keep taking classes rise above those that jest at you. you wil be a better firefighter and a better person for doing so

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Sounds like what we have here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so which is the way he wants...well he gets.

I feel for you. Perhaps someone around there other then you needs to wake up and realize that this is 2006 and the road to the path they are leading too, is paved by the bricks that line walkways with brothers and sisters who have gone in the name of duty and honor. The problem is they are spitting on it. State courses are a joke, the fact is the joke is on them. I don't know where you are or what county, but I can tell you from where I stand and deliver its not a joke. We have the finest mix of instructors you can find anywhere and we always get the same results, tons of thanks and showers of appreciation from departments who we have trained their members. I feel bad for the citizens your department is suppose to protect, the last time I saw keystone cop movies were in black and white and it sounds like your the only one who is thinking and motivated to make change, and the rest are a bunch of gaggles. What I can tell you is...don't give up the fight. Don't get frustrated, you are the intelligent one with common sense and a valid point. You are not making an argument, they are, you can use facts and oration to keep your point, the life protecting one that it is alive. Don't let them frustrate you. Get out there, get your training, move up the ranks, write policies, stick to them and follow the law and NFPA and your legacy will be paved in gold, not bricks of dead firefighters names. Your department could be heading for a LODD. And if you do become a leader, remember the rule of emergency services, the louder you are, generally the dumber you are without facts or a valid point. The ones that you wish would stand up are behind you they just don't know how to voice it. You can't please everyone all of the time, but your right in your thoughts and stance, and the 90% will appreciate it at some point, and 5 of the 10% who are just wrong, will also be but won't out of foolish pride.

[ex-commish 490]

Sounds like what we have here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so which is the way he wants...well he gets.

I feel for you.  Perhaps someone around there other then you needs to wake up and realize that this is 2006 and the road to the path they are leading too, is paved by the bricks that line walkways with brothers and sisters who have gone in the name of duty and honor.  The problem is they are spitting on it.  State courses are a joke, the fact is the joke is on them. I don't know where you are or what county, but I can tell you from where I stand and deliver its not a joke.  We have the finest mix of instructors you can find anywhere and we always get the same results, tons of thanks and showers of appreciation from departments who we have trained their members.  I feel bad for the citizens your department is suppose to protect, the last time I saw keystone cop movies were in black and white and it sounds like your the only one who is thinking and motivated to make change, and the rest are a bunch of gaggles.  What I can tell you is...don't give up the fight.  Don't get frustrated, you are the intelligent one with common sense and a valid point.  You are not making an argument, they are, you can use facts and oration to keep your point, the life protecting one that it is alive.  Don't let them frustrate you.  Get out there, get your training, move up the ranks, write policies, stick to them and follow the law and NFPA and your legacy will be paved in gold, not bricks of dead firefighters names.  Your department could be heading for a LODD.  And if you do become a leader, remember the rule of emergency services, the louder you are, generally the dumber you are without facts or a valid point.  The ones that you wish would stand up are behind you they just don't know how to voice it.  You can't please everyone all of the time, but your right in your thoughts and stance, and the 90% will appreciate it at some point, and 5 of the 10% who are just wrong, will also be but won't out of foolish pride.

←

ALS brings up some good points and it goes back to what I stated before......become an officer anf be in the position to change things. You won't make everyone happy but you will be remembered as one who tried to make things better.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[BFD1054 1,552]

Well said brothers!

m_bjones...You know the old saying, "the squeeky wheel gets the oil?" Well, don't give up brother, keep voicing your points and opinions to the powers that be, because you have valid concerns on your hands!

As stated, it sounds like this problem is coming from the top all the way down to the pee-ons, which is quite scary! Its 2006 and your department needs to wake the hell up before it gets someone killed! If the officers don't see a problem with this, than that says something about them, doesn't it?

I hear where you are coming from and can understand your frustration! There will always be the handful of guys that don't think they need to further train and better themselves, those are the ones to stay away from! Believe me, i share your thoughts and i train as much as possible. As Chief Mancusi stated, in-house training is a great thing, but certainly should not be the end-all! I understand that people have jobs and families, however, we all need to find time to train. By train, i don't mean the bare minimum either!

My company holds in-house training every Monday night and we try to cover a vast array of topics. However, our officers are always encouraging our members to better themselves and take State courses. My company has been lucky recently in that we have gotten a good handful of young members. Our officers, myself included, have taken the time to show our young members whats out there and available to them in terms of training. If a new course is offered, we make sure that our members are made aware of them and we strongly push them to take them, if they can manage it. Just recently, i was able to encourage two of our members, one a new Lt., to enroll in an upcoming EMT course. Being in charge of EMS training, i have also made certain that our active members keep their CPR/AED certifications up to date.

As i said, keep voicing your opinions and hang in their! For an example, i was getting annoyed that there were non-EMS trained members going on EMS assists with my company. Our SOP's state that in order to ride on an EMS call, members MUST be at least CPR/AED certified. Our members are to respond to HQ and respond on the rig only, with NO personnel vehicles going to the scene. I brought my point up to my Chief and fellow officers and they all agreed that we had been lacking in enforcing our SOP's. After going through our records, i made up a list of current qualified members (CPR/AED, CFR, EMT) and had the Chief look it over. The Chief ok'd it and it was posted stating that only members who were on the list could respond on EMS calls. It took a little while for it to stick, but the guys caught on. Members who weren't on the list learned and many of them approached me to find out how they could re-qualify. Now, the majority of our active members are CPR/AED qualified, with many of them showing interest in becomming CFR or EMT certified! Sorry, that was a long example, but just goes to show if you push enough for something, it can get done!

As many of the guys here have said, you seem to be very enthusiastic and be on the right track. Try and sit down with at least your Chief, one on one, and nicely voice your thoughts and opinions. Let him/her know that you feel that the department is running in a dangerous manner. As stated, there are laws out there in which departments must abide by. If there are members who are interior qualified that should not be, see to it that your Chief looks into it and makes certain that these members get taken off the interior list until they are properly qualified. It is absolutely insane and dangerous to have these things go on in this day and age! Someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed if things aren't changed soon!

If you are thinking of becomming an officer, good for you. Once you become an officer, it will hopfully give you the upper hand. It sounds like you have the right mind-set and enthusiasm to make a great fire officer and to make the needed changes. Continue to train, it will only make you a better firefighter and leader. Keep voicing your concerns to as many people as you can, especially your higher-ups. Don't give up and try your best to turn your comapnay around. You are going to meet alot of resistance along the way, and deal with some negativity, but keep pushing because it is an important quest!

Good luck to you and stay safe!

P.S. - The members who have posted before me have much more experience and knowledge in the fire service. They have great advise, as always, and can help lead you in the right direction. I just wanted to add my thoughts and two cents because i can tell how frustrated you are.

Edited February 7, 2006 by BFD1054

[Guest]

jones, it sounds like your going to have to lead by example and hopefully you can make that change but it sounds like your company is set in its ways. so many personalities to deal with and being the new guy doesn't make things easy. one word that makes people cringe is liability. responsibility is something we all have to deal with. express your concerns and end up asking are these up to date qualified people giving your in house training? don't ever close the door to extra corricular training. you may pick up something new that the others dont know about. fire service is a rapidly changeing service and you need sharp skills. learn from others mistakes not yours. you need to point out that things have chaged in the fire service on all ends even training. unfortunate for you your in a company that doesnt want to look outside the box but keep your head up and train like your life depends on it! we are always learning.