The Attitude Of Some EMS Providers

[Guest]

So by saying that I am going to use my best judgement and say that you are a paid professional.  So therefore you have NO right to be questioning the status of ******** VAC (the V stands for Volunteer in case you didn't know).  Maybe you do volunteer somewhere else but all of that "running" you did, you were also "running" to the bank the next week to get a check for it.  When I "run" out of my door to do a call for ******** VAC the only thing I am "running" to do is possibly save the life of one of my neighbors.  With all of that said, I would like it for you to NOT post questions that will lead others to think that we are some half a** organization.  Our members leave their jobs, families and put their lives on hold FOR FREE while they are out doing what they love to do.. HELP OTHERS!  Trust me, if anyone know the dedication of the members to *VAC I would.  With all of that said, if you have anymore questions regarding *VAC, please ask one of us who responded to you, and DO NOT make us look bad on this site.   And for your information the way I see it, those *** calls that we did do during 2005 all had a dedicated and compassionate crew who were there because they wanted to be, not because they had to...

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I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade here, but would like to comment on a theme I’m seeing in these and other peoples comments. I want to say straight off the bat; I’m a volunteer in the area as well as someone who is looking to make a career out EMS. The area I volunteer is supplemented by paid Paramedics who pull shifts in 8 hour increments at one of the two volunteer agencies in the district. Now, Lilblueeyes, please don’t take any personal offence to this, but I think comments and attitudes like the one displayed in your above comments is what gives volunteers a bad reputation with paid individuals. I know, because the same ideology/themes are alive and well where I volunteer. The general aura of your comments seems to try and evoke some sort of sympathy for volunteers because we give time out of our lives to help provide a service to the community. Make no mistake about it, no one is obligated to provide free services, its something many, including me, do by conscious choice. Because of this, I think it’s immature and inappropriate to try to hold volunteerism on some sort of pedestal. Furthermore, it’s clearly not fair of you to indirectly assert that volunteers have a much larger interest in providing patient care than does paid staff. Not only is it unfair, but it’s frankly a false statement. Speaking from my own experiences, if it was not for a paid Paramedic stationed at my volley house, the ambulance would rarely get out of the building and patient care would rarely be administered. Frankly, the only times that I could guarantee adequate personnel and equipment would be at some MCI, insanely huge fire or even a large MVA. Otherwise, your average volunteer could give a hoot about someone with chest pain. And this really speaks to why volunteer organizations suffer. You often have incompetent glory seekers staffing these agencies. Paid staff respond to every call, regardless of severity, they will be there, they will have a driver. That’s why I’m glad the community I live in (I volley outside where my “home†is located) has a paid EMS system, because other than myself and the people I have the honor to volunteer with, I would not want one person from that agency stepping foot in my house to initiate any form of care. At the end of the day, I feel strongly that feelings and comments like those above only hinder what the real goal is: provide the highest level of pre-hospital emergency care possible. Volunteers and paid staff need to work together. And today they don’t work together as well as they can because of pervasive attitudes like this. Who wants a know-nothing volunteer with extremely limited experience telling a well seasoned paramedic what to do? It’s uncalled for, and frankly I don’t blame those staff who have a distaste for volunteers because 99.99% of the time you can trace it back to the ignorance, stupidity, unprofessional, and glory seeking of some of the organization’s membership. I’m glad that the crew I ride with has a reputation for not tolerating stupidity, unprofessionalism and ignorance as well as having a positive working relationship with all of the Paramedics our district employs. Volunteering in an EMS agency isnt and shouldnt be like being a member of a collge frat or club, its not a social event. I don’t mean to brag, but this is how every crew and every organization should work. You don’t need to be receiving a pay check to be considered professional, its about the attitude you have, the commitment you make and the high standards you set for yourself.

[KelliPVAC 32]

I don't think that the statement made by LilBlueEyes was putting volunteers on a pedestal. I do agree at times there is a different attitude betwwen the "paid" people and the "volunteers", which I'm not saying agree with. Many times a paramedic will refer to a call as a job, to them it is, personally I feel my job is 9-5 in an office.

I feel with whole issue started when a "paid" fireman was questioning a volunteer VAC. I am proud to say thay my agency was able to treat 807 people without getting paid.

I personally have grown up with "volunteering", and has played a huge part in my life, and I would never change that. It is nice to be able to help a friend, neighbor or family member in need, and not feel it is my JOB to do that. I do it because I want to, not to get paid.

[Jason762 2]

I don't think that the statement made by LilBlueEyes was putting volunteers on a pedestal. I do agree at times there is a different attitude between the "paid" people and the "volunteers", which I'm not saying agree with. Many times a "paid" person will refer to a call as a job, to them it is, personally I feel my job is 9-5 in an office.

I feel with whole issue started when a "paid" fireman was questioning a volunteer VAC. I am proud to say thay my agency was able to treat 807 people without getting paid.

I personally have grown up with "volunteering", and has played a huge part in my life, and I would never change that. It is nice to be able to help a friend, neighbor or family member in need, and not feel it is my JOB to do that. I do it because I want to, not to get paid.

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KelliPVAC,

So then am I correct is assuming since your "job" is your 9-5 office position, then you view your EMS position as a hobby. In the business of saving lives, none of us should view this as a hobby. I'm glad to hear your agency was able to "treat" 807 people, but at what level of service? A person in cardiac arrest stands little to no chance of survival if they are not defib'd in under 8 minutes from time of call received. Can you say your ambulance responds within that time frame at 10 am on a Monday morning? How about 2 am on a Satrurday night? The VAC is a thing of the past. It is time to look to the future and things like quality patient care and quality improvement. I'm not saying there should no longer be volunteer EMS but we must have paid crews on 24 hours a day (supplemented by vollies if need be), even if that means regionalizing EMS. It may be "nice" to help out a neighbor or friend in need, but I would much rather have a competant, paid EMT or medic (training) that does 15 calls per shift (experience), come help me in my time of need, rather than someone who was in the middle of a meeting at their job, received a page, responded to the ambulance bay, waited for a full crew, responded to my house and attempted to assist me. All this and who knows what this persons experience level is, or training level for that matter. How many times have we all heard the second, third, and fourth requests for an ambulance to respond, then mutual aid is called. What is the patient doind this entire time? Not getting better thats for sure. Its time we all face the facts and try to look towards the future and making things better, instead of patting ourselves on the back for a job well done. Lets take this job seriously and try to render the best care available.

[ex-commish 490]

I must agree that ems is in somewhat of a critical stage. My department included and I agree that if an agency can not fulfill it's mission than alternate means are warranted and that includes paid emt's.

I must take issue however that a paid emt is better. Being I have worked both sides of the fence in ems I believe that the individual attitude towards ems and patient care is what seperates the professional from the non-professional. I have dealt with both good emt's and morons with cards and always judged it as an individual basis....not wether the person is paid or not. Lets face it, neither is getting rich in this business. Most of us do the best we can.

[Guest 786XP]

The previous posts could not have summed up the issues surrounding "attitude" better. This attitude often is carried over into the whole career vs. volunteer issue or also within a career system; the live-in-town vs. live-out-of-town issue.

The reality is most people who take-up the emergency services as a career (whether volunteer or career) do this because they care about people and public safety. The problem is that after they get into the system, they may get side-tracked by BS internal issues (protecting their failing fiefdom, glory-seekers, or voting against a labor agreement because it did not cater to their personal agenda).

The idea cast by individuals that a volunteer cares more about patient care or customer service (or the idea that someone from the community will be a more dedicated employee) is myopic at best and certainly reeks of ignorance.

The core values of the person delivering the care are what determines their commitment to their occupation (career or volunteer). All systems need to spend more time asking "what type of person are you" when interviewing candidates and less time focusing on the individuals just because they have a pulse and 2 legs.

[roeems87 0]

So then am I correct is assuming since your "job" is your 9-5 office position, then you view your EMS position as a hobby. In the business of saving lives, none of us should view this as a hobby. I'm glad to hear your agency was able to "treat" 807 people, but at what level of service? A person in cardiac arrest stands little to no chance of survival if they are not defib'd in under 8 minutes from time of call received. Can you say your ambulance responds within that time frame at 10 am on a Monday morning? How about 2 am on a Satrurday night? The VAC is a thing of the past. It is time to look to the future and things like quality patient care and quality improvement. I'm not saying there should no longer be volunteer EMS but we must have paid crews on 24 hours a day (supplemented by vollies if need be), even if that means regionalizing EMS. It may be "nice" to help out a neighbor or friend in need, but I would much rather have a competant, paid EMT or medic (training) that does 15 calls per shift (experience), come help me in my time of need, rather than someone who was in the middle of a meeting at their job, received a page, responded to the ambulance bay, waited for a full crew, responded to my house and attempted to assist me. All this and who knows what this persons experience level is, or training level for that matter. How many times have we all heard the second, third, and fourth requests for an ambulance to respond, then mutual aid is called. What is the patient doind this entire time? Not getting better thats for sure. Its time we all face the facts and try to look towards the future and making things better, instead of patting ourselves on the back for a job well done. Lets take this job seriously and try to render the best care available.

A couple things...

1) You make the assertion that you would much rather have a "competant, paid EMT or Medic." I'd like to know where you all of a sudden determined that the only competant emergency medical providers are ones who get a paycheck when they leave.

2) Along those lines... I don't know how it is everywhere, but I don't think there is a single EMT or paramedic at our VAC that doesn't have (PAID) experience from somewhere else...

3) VACs are not a thing of the past. Many times they need to be supplemented by paid staff, but that doesn't mean that it works without volunteers. We need volunteers to fill out our crews. The reason we have paid is because of volume. Sure, all voly works (or should) with 300 calls a year. That's slightly more difficult with over 2100...

4) We're a VAC. We have crews in quarters. Our average response time is around 4-5 minutes. That's received to on scene. Granted, if you're reaching the 3rd call at one time, it may be slightly longer, but except for large city services, there aren't many places that can handle that at once without a delay. It's called redundancy... i.e. FD gets there to handle immediate emergencies when EMS may not be readily available... or police... Quite frankly, someone is going to have problems with cardiac arrest regardless of when you can get a crew there. The 3-4 minutes it takes to get called in and dispatched could be their life. Never mind (being already there) the 5 minutes it takes to get to the scene. The person is already dead. NYC EMS's average response time last year on their website was 8-9 minutes... forgive me, but does our VAC (the V stands for volunteer) have a better or equal number there??

5) No one is trying to put anyone on any higher level than anyone else here. I think the constant badgering of voly vs. paid on this site is ridiculous. Speaking in EMS, 9/10 providers do both (go back to my #1 and 2 here and see why I think your point is way off from the truth). So what is the problem here? The problem is not wanting to put yourself up, but it's fighting for equal ground with people who constantly try to put you down... I won't comment on who that is in general, but if you get the feeling in your gut that I'm (and others) are talking about you, then that's probably true...

Edited January 13, 2006 by roeems87

[GAW6 66]

ROEEMS87 - You hit everything right on the head! I couldn't agree more! I do not consider being an EMT a "hobby". I am actually an EMT-I, a CPR/First Aid Instructor, have taken critical trauma care, and any other courses available. I didn't do these things because I was bored and needed a "hobby". I am also a Fire Commissioner. I also have a full-time job and a family. It all comes down to being dedicated and having a good sense for community service and helping our neighbors. What KelliPVAC was refering to was that from 9 to 5 we have jobs (after all, we all need to put food on the table!). I feel Alpha's statements were totally off base. I DO care about a patient having chest pains despite what he/she thinks! We have set crews, so we don't just show up if it is a "good" call that we can "buff". Our patients do not get less treatment because of our response times since A) We have a paramedic system in place and Our Police Depts. have defibrillators. Besides, just how many cardiac arrests become saves? - not many even with ALS. Despite what Alpha says, I have seen some paramedics that have attitudes and not showing compassion (I am not saying all and I am not saying that their presence is not needed).

The bottom line is I think Alpha owes us dedicated EMTs all an apology.

[Guest emtb23]

I agree with Roe.

From what I can see, there are fairly obvious disadvantages to each side, whether you're on the volunteer side of the fence or the paid. To highlight the shortcomings of the former without considering those of the latter is, in my opinion, inane.

Every community is different, so I don't see why there has to be one specific EMS system that should be the best choice for everyone. Just because a paid system or a VAC is appropriate in one place doesn't mean it should be implemented everywhere.

[Guest]

ROEEMS87 - You hit everything right on the head!  I couldn't agree more!  I do not consider being an EMT a "hobby".  I am actually an EMT-I, a CPR/First Aid Instructor, have taken critical trauma care, and any other courses available.  I didn't do these things because I was bored and needed a "hobby".  I am also a Fire Commissioner.  I also have a full-time job and a family.  It all comes down to being dedicated and having a good sense for community service and helping our neighbors.  What KelliPVAC was refering to was that from 9 to 5 we have jobs (after all, we all need to put food on the table!).  I feel Alpha's statements were totally off base.  I DO care about a patient having chest pains despite what he/she thinks!  We have set crews, so we don't just show up if it is a "good" call that we can "buff".  Our patients do not get less treatment because of our response times since A) We have a paramedic system in place and Our Police Depts. have defibrillators.  Besides, just how many cardiac arrests become saves? - not many even with ALS.  Despite what Alpha says, I have seen some paramedics that have attitudes and not showing compassion (I am not saying all and I am not saying that their presence is not needed). 

The bottom line is I think Alpha owes us dedicated EMTs all an apology.

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I’m not in the business of mud slinging here, I know all to well the nature of politicking. With all due respect, I am not going to offer any apology to anyone. I like you, consider myself a dedicated EMT and volunteer. However, I call the shots as I see them and draw from my experiences to supplement and illustrate my concerns. Frankly speaking, one’s level of certification is really a moot point. Being an EMT-I or CPR instructor is great; in fact I commend you for that. However, you still operate at the same level I do, as an EMT-D on BLS calls and quite possibility on ALS calls as well, unless otherwise dictated by medical control or a Paramedic. But, I really see that all to be a moot, if not irrelevant point.

My comments and concerns are solely focused around the attitudes I find pervasive within the volunteer organizations I am familiar with. By posting, I have taken this a step further to include the comments I have read here on these forums. My comments are very general and with that, do not, in any way, encompass any organization’s entire membership. But, I can assure you, you will find at least a handful of people exercising what I have illustrated in some way, shape or form.

I have never accused anyone of using their membership at a VAC as a “hobby.†However, for some, it is undeniably the case. I stand by my statement that VACs, or the ones I’m familiar with, tend to give off a fraternity-like aura. This upsets me. While, this is not to say you can’t have friends and enjoy strong social ties, I don’t think it’s appropriate for membership to spend hours hanging out at the station, using the station’s facilities for personal business, or using the building as a lay-over for a drunken night on the town. Again, I use my own experience to illustrate my concerns and some of this may or may not occur at every agency. However, after reading a number of comments this seems to be the case in many other organizations. A VAC, as far as I’m concerned, is not a fraternity; it’s not a social club/event. It’s an organization designed to provide pre-hospital care to a community/region. If you choose to be a member of such an organization, you are thus tasked with an often weighty responsibility. What I find pompous, ignorant and upsetting are the self-inflicted pats on the back for a job well done. I am at a loss as to why people feel the need to do this. The conscious decision to gain membership thus binds you to administering your prescribed and certified level of care. In essence it’s your job. I find it unprofessional to take part in such hoorahing and celebration. Is it any surprise that a VAC did what it was tasked with doing? Surely, it’s a great accomplishment to partake in 807 runs, 2,000 runs or even 100,000 runs. But, why cant we all sit back, quietly, smile and know inside we did what we were tasked with doing. This is where the difference between a professional and volunteer arise. Again, I emphasize that I think receiving a check is only one dynamic aspect of being a professional. Attitude, commitment, modesty, selflessness and goal-setting are all important aspects of being a professional. So, surely you can be professional without receiving a check, just live by some of the postulates of professionalism I pointed out. I just find this increasingly less apparent within volunteer organizations that let just about anyone join. Within my own organization it’s as simple as black and white. It’s evident, more often than not, that the paid Paramedics maintain their collectiveness and exercise much of which I outlined while most of the volunteers project themselves down a path of unwavering tunnel-vision and adrenalin driven stupidity and un-professionalism while the “wacker†gets his fix and the patient suffers.

Again, I know my comments upset many. However, I call the shots as I see them. I, in no way, shape or form, intend to upset or indict anyone here. I would much rather discuss the issue and possible solutions.

[Jason762 2]

Yes, there is no "one size fits all" in EMS and FD. Every community is different. I don't know what town you are from, that can almost always get an ambulance out and on the scene in 4-5 minutes, but I constantly hear many, many other towns toning out for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th requests for an ambulance. Your town must be the exception to the rule, where as most towns are struggling for vollies, you seem to have enough to cover 2 calls at once. As far as competant personnel go, most towns don't have almost all of their vollies comprised from people who have paid experience, again you must come from a town that is different from most.

The reason a paid person would be more competant than a vollie is due to his/her experience. A town with an all vol. system will typically be a smaller town with less call volume. Therefore the members will go on less calls and thus be less experienced. A paid EMT or Medic will usually go on 10-15 runs per shift, or thereabouts, giving him/her a whole lot more experience. This experience is essential in the treatment of patients and is a huge asset to quality of care.

As for an appology from Alpha...We are all adults here, we are all entitled to our opinions. Just because you don't like what another individual says, or find the truth hard to swallow, does not mean he needs to give an apology. Grow up and deal with the fact that you may not agree with things that everybody else says.

NYC response times are not really a factor in all this. I assume we have all been to NYC and have seen what gridlock looks like. There is nothing that can really be done about response times in NYC other than staffing more ambulances. This is just another accepatble risk of living in NYC.

All these statements are not meant to be comletely encapsulating, meaning including all vollies. There are good vollies out there. The system as a whole though is outdated and needs re-vamping. Its all well and good to have a VAC but what good does it do when the bus sits in the bay while someone sits at home and is dying. The first responders are limited in their capabilities. I'm sure many people would have a different opinion of how "great" the current system is if it was THEIR family member that lay waiting for the ambulance to arrive when they were sick. Lets please look at the real issues and once again stop patting ourselves on the back for being "VOLUNTEERS".

[Guest emtb23]

In a perfect world, there would be a competEnt ER doctor with a full staff on every street corner in the country waiting to respond to your emergencies, stubbed toes and all.

Until you show me a way we can get to that perfect world, I will stand by what I said before: no two communities are alike, and each community should implement whatever system is most practically/financially/medically appropriate.

Edited January 13, 2006 by emtb23

[Guest]

Would you rather have the neuro-surgeon who does brain surgery part time for free or the one who does it full time and makes half a million a year?

[Guest 786XP]

As for an appology from Alpha...We are all adults here, we are all entitled to our opinions.  Just because you don't like what another individual says, or find the truth hard to swallow, does not mean he needs to give an apology.  Grow up and deal with the fact that you may not agree with things that everybody else says.

J762 - I rarely agree with anything you say, particularly about that overpriced baseball team of yours.

This new assignment of yours has made you quite militant!

[GAW6 66]

Would you rather have the neuro-surgeon who does brain surgery part time for free or the one who does it full time and makes half a million a year?

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I really don't think you can make that comparison. What you are saying is that an EMT who might be brand new, but he is working for a paid service (probably doing transports or driving) is better than an experienced volunteer EMT?

[X307 1]

As you can see by my # of posts...I generally keep to myself. I have to agree with Alpha on just about everything he is saying. Many of you are stuck on certain aspects of his statement and are drawing a perception that he is totally bashing all volunteers. Not the case. As he has said, the crew that he works with regularly takes it 100% seriously.

I agree that your day to day volunteer EMSers are truly missing the point. I like many other who posted on this comment began my EMS career as an impressionable (YOUNG) volunteer. Some 15years later i think i have been around a little and now can formulate an opinion. I have seen and worked with numerous a VAC agency and NOT ALL are the same. Not all VAC members/EMT are the same. I would like to think that when i see an ambulance (PAID or VOLUNTEER) that everyone on board has a clue. Much to my dismay, this usually is not the case. Face it folks EMS as a whole is on a steady decline.

To sum it up paid or volunteer it is about the Patient. If it takes paying someone to drive and ambulance or to be a career an EMT to get better response times than that is what needs to be done. The one thing i hate hearing is "it will ruin volunteerism." It is not about the volunteers it is about the patient and what it will take to get him/her the care they need QUICKLY.

p/s roeems87 I could only guess which agency you volunteer with (EVAC). If that is the case than your system is different...more of a model for VACs. EVAC embraces paid personnel. They even hire their own. Paid/Volunteer coexists well, and in my opinion provide timely EMS care...Even with 2nd and 3rd simultaneous hits. Kudos!

[Guest]

I've just only come upon this discussion today, and I can only say that all this bantering back and forth is fruitless. In my ten years in EMS (5 of them as paid) nothing has changed in the attidudes between the paid and the vollies.

All of us hold the same state card, as EMT's we are certified to preform the same standards of patient care. As Paramedics, we rely on our EMT's to help us care for the patient. I spent 2 years as line officer at a VAC that was troubled by poor staffing/response. When we recieved mutual aide from other organizations to cover our calls, not one of my members said thank you to them for bailing us out. Whats worse is that Vollie corps bash other Vollie Corps even more than Vollie vs. Paid. WILL ALL OF YOU GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paid or volunteer, we ALL have a JOB to do. That's get the patient to the hospital so the man with the M.D. after his name can treat them and send them back home. As a Medic, I have and do at times work amongst voluteer agencies. My opinion is this, I don't care if you're paid or vollie. I don't care if you do 2 or 2000 calls a year. What it all boils down to is can you get me and my patient to the hospital. It's can I trust you with basic patient care while I preform Advanced Interventions. It's CAN YOU PUT YOUR DIFFERENCES ASIDE ABOUT PAID MEDICS/EMT's for the duration of this call and take care of this sick/hurt person whom all they care about is getting to the hospital.

We are all here in EMS because we love helping people. We are all on the same team.

However, it is the responsibility of the most experienced member, or the Paid employee, to help quash these issues and make us one happy disfunctional family. For those of you who've been complaining that the MEDICS don't listen to the orders that you give them, I have only one thing to say. No one has a right to boss around a medic aside from his/her Supervisor or a Paramedic senior to them.

Paid Medic/EMT's do respond to more calls than volunteers. Paid people DO treat more patients than vollies do. It should not be their intention to rub it into the noses of the vollies in oreder to humilliate them and "put them in their place".

We can all learn from eachother. There are vollies taht I know who are much more competent than some paid EMT's I know. And vice versa.

As a parting thought I leave you all with this. Volunteers rely on ALS services to provide such care. Those services are PAID. Paid services (Fly Car Medics) often times rely on volunteer agencies to transport their patients because of their location and level or service their contract provides.

So take a deep breath everyone........exhale............GOOSE FABAH.............WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM!!!! Stop acting like children and play nice in the sandbox.

[Guest]

I’m not sure if this is getting off topic, but the real issue, as I see it, is attitude. Often, attitude is the single factor correlating directly to an agency’s membership responding for a driving request or getting a 2nd due bus out the door. But, most of all, it directly effects the level of care a patient will receive when under the auspices of the VAC. I’m not calling for the dissolution of the VAC as an institution. I guess I want people to see the downward trend it has taken and why such a trend has occurred. If your town/village/region decides on a VAC + paid ALS providers (as seems to be the greater trend today) it’s essential that members ditch the “wacker†mentality at the door and work hard to promote a harmony and positive relationship with the paid staff. Harmony is really the key here.

Edited January 13, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[Guest]

Alpha 1's right. Can't we all just get along. Paid and Vollies can learn a lot from eachother. The world is not a perfect place. We all have different visions of a perfect world. Wake up to reality. This is what we have, let's adapt and overcome.

[roeems87 0]

I think the topic is being beaten to death... but I really don't like the notion of paid vs. volly attitudes. Granted, there is a HUGE difference in EMTs based on experience. Straight out of EMT class, you're just plain useless. 15 years as an EMT and you can probably do anything. That said... THAT is the difference I think exists... not paid vs. volly. And to think that volunteers are always the ones without the experience is where the fault lies. At least I think that's the distinction that's not correct. A significantly large portion of vollie's in EMS don't only volunteer EMS... they have in the past (or continue to) worked in paid systems...

Additionally... the "wacker" ("buff," "sparky," whatever it is where you are) attitude is along the same lines... that is more of a lack of experience, rather than simply being volunteer. There are plenty of wacker paid people, and plenty of non-wacker vollies...

I won't go into the notion about VACs being a social affair either, but it's a group of people you work with and hang out with... The people working at the time (i.e. the ones in uniform taking the calls) aren't the ones who are completely lost or staggering in to hang out... But that's a matter of policy... and I don't think it affects the way people behave on the bus or for that matter how patients are cared for at all... so I don't understand the relevance...

Lastly, what about this notion of preferring the "professional, paid" person walking through the door. Before I ever called the paid service where I live I would call my VAC to come pick up anyone in my family. I would prefer any single one of the people I work with in the volunteer setting (again, many of them also paid) to take care of a loved one (or myself) before someone from the paid service... I would have called them "a burnt out EMT," but who would want to make generalizations about the attitudes of another provider? I would question the abilities of a paid provider long before I would a volly. You know for sure that if someone is inexperienced on a volly crew, they're not alone, and someone with greater experience is with them. You can't always say the same for a paid crew... (oh, wait, should i say, oh yeah, they did 6 months of transports right out of EMT school, that makes them qualified.)

I'm on both sides of the fence here with having been voly and paid, but I can't see the point objectively from the other side, honestly...

[calhobs 110]

As an ex officer of my VAC I happen to like to see our members hanging out at the building playing cards, watching movies, playing X-box, taking care of the rigs, training each other, etc. This forms friendships and lets the people of your Corp get to know each other and form bonds. As far as a member sleeping off a rough night in the building I myself have no problem with that. That person will not be going on calls and I rather have that person walk down from the bar and sleep it off then drive and end up being my next call.

Also about Corps not gettting out, yes it is geting harder out there. Less memebers joining, people having less time to volunter. But you have to do what you have to do. The polticans in these areas shoud start looking at ways to improve that issue. Find out why people are not coming out, start memebership drives, etc. I happen to belong to aVAC that is enjoying the benifits of being able to get both rigs out on calls at the same time within 3-4 minutes. Thier has been times were we could man a third or fourth rig but we only have 2.

[Guest]

Like I’ve said before, because I’m not a member of all the local VACs, I’ve used what aggravates me most to try and illustrate my concerns. To be honest, I don’t think one can debate or examine this enough. Why? Because the issues I and other have raised seem to continue. And, at least from my seat, it needs to be addressed – otherwise the organization fails to work like a well oiled machine. My comments regarding my preference for a paid organization are simply that, my personal preference. I don’t think I really have to outline my reasons but ill go through them. I live in Rye Brook, which is covered by PCRRB EMS. If I requested an ambulance, I would receive a Paramedic and EMT, both over the age of 21, both with at least 1-2 years minimum of paid 911 experiences. If I lived in the town I volunteered in, I would receive one of two things. On a good day, I would get a Paramedic with a full crew, including a driver and EMT of varying experience. On a bad day I would get a Paramedic only or a Paramedic with a 16 year old observer/attendant and wait until a driver responded for a driver page – which could be upwards of a 10 minute wait, if anyone responded at all. Per your comments roeems87, I think the sarcasm in your comments doesn’t lend itself from rectifying the situation or reaching any conclusion. If anything it just exacerbates things and perpetuates a negative attitude towards paid staff. Like I said before, you need to achieve a harmony to come out with the best patient care. Comments like those you made are an example of something I deplore and feel strongly jeopardizes patient care when working in a vol + paid organization.

[mfc2257 464]

I stopped reading the posts on this thread after a while.

I simply can't believe that there is a paid vs vollie argument going on here. Paid providers exist where they are needed due to demand, staffing, and territory. Vollies are still covering areas that they have the capacity to handle. PVAC is still more than capable of covering their territory. I know this because they took my grandmother to the hospital the evening before thanksgiving and they arrived with a full crew in less than five minutes. Their crew was exceptional and included a husband/wife combo, a younger girl that appeared to be an attendant and a driver.

ON THE OTHER HAND

Pudd1 is owed an apology. He didn't imply anything. He merely asked a question that vollies have been asked for years..... How much mutual aid do you GIVE and RECIEVE. That doesn't imply a damn thing. Even the career departments in Westchester cant handle a typical structure fire on their own (Yonkers, New Rochelle, White Plains, Mt. Vernon excluded for minor structure fires)... Fairview, Greenville, Rye, Harrison, PC, Pelham, Mohegan, etc etc etc combo, career, or other call for mutual aid. Don't kill the guy because he asked how your calls break down.

Get off the career vs vollie thing. In case anyone hasn't noticed.... There have been Vollies and Career FF's working together in Westchester since the early 1900's. Not just in Yonkers either... Mohegan's first career FF began working before WWII if I'm not mistaken.... Regardless, the Vollies are still covering their territories and the Career guys are still needed where the bells ring 10-12 times a day. It's life.

GET OVER IT.

[mikeinet 37]

I have to agree with mfc and most of the other people here - we're all on the same team! whether i'm a firefighter on a parkway trying to cut someone out of a car... or if I'm the EMT waiting for the FD to cut my pt out of the car... we are all o n - t h e - s a m e - t e a m!

With regard to call volume: it depends your area. Look at OVAC for example... where I ride up at school (Syracuse University) we cover *just* the university and surrounding area and we do ~1,500 calls a year... I'd hardly say we have a 1mile district. All ambulance work is 100% volunteer - we have crews in quarters 1700-0800 and pagers otherwise... many times we have a rig on the road less than 1 minute after the call is taken, but during the day sometimes its hard...so we have our full time supervisor take the calls if nobody's around - we found a problem, and made a solution.

With regard to the paid - I do agree that if a town's VAC cannot serve its community the way it should (decent response time - 3-4min on life threatening critical calls - more for the general illness I have the flu) then a paid solution needs to be found as its' the only way to provide proper care... this isn't saying a town isn't good and needs to pay someone - its' saying the dynamics of an area don't allow for a fully volunteer service... that's the way most of Westchester is - a lot of 8-5 jobs, many in NYC, commuters, people who can't sit around all day and ride the bus back and forth between the hospital. There's NOTHING wrong in my opinion getting a paid EMT during the day and then being vol. at night... if that's what you have to do in order to provide proper patient care - DO IT. If your district is too wide-spread and it takes 10min for a crew member to get to the station, have them sleep in quarters! Do what you have to do to provide proper care!

We're not here to argue paid or not paid is better, can save more lives, can perform better procedures... we're here to HELP PATIENTS. When someone calls 911 - we're there to help them; We all carry the exact same card as has been stated.

When the 911 system finally comes together to realize this, the world will change. Back to Syracuse... we work very closely with Rural/Metro (Paid City Service) - they are our ALS provider, and we drop calls to them when we don't have an available rig, or are unable to staff a rig. We all know each other, work well together (well, for the most part lol) and can trust one another during a rough call. Few months ago did a full arrest, paramedic from the city jumped on my rig, he jumped in doing his stuff, had me assist when necessary with ALS interventions... there was never a quarrel about "he's paid, he's done this more" - it was straight "we're all here to help this guy" - he trusted me that I knew what I was doing with regard to the care I was proving and wasn't staring over my shoulder the whole time - he did what he had to do - - THAT IS WHAT EMS IS ABOUT... not "i've done this more, get away and let me do it."

Wake up everybody! Nobody goes through EMT class to "suck at what they do" - nobody wakes up at 2am to run to the ambulance to save someone's life because "they don't have anything better to do" - anywhere you go, an emergency services worker has a pride and dedication to their job (paid or unpaid) - its this that makes the difference, not the pay check at the end of the day.

anyway, i'm ranting and done.

[calhobs 110]

BRAVO MIKEINIT very well said

[Guest]

OK! Well seeing as this whole forum has started on my behalf (not by choice), I think it would be best then if I were to end it.

First of all, I am very sorry to those who feel as though I was attacking volunteer vs. paid when originally, my whole response started in regards to having to mutual aid calls. And, I was just defending my VAC and showing loyalty which all of you have also done whether it is your VAC or the place of your business. With that said, I would also like to state that I truly value everyone's opinion on this topic. As stated earlier every town has different systems and we really all should respect that what works for one may not work for all.

The thing that I feel is most disheartening is that people who have I have not talked to into years have all of a sudden communicated to me and told me that I have started a war. I did not have any intentions of starting a war and I honestly believe that this is such a ridiculous thing to have strangers be fighting over. Granted, we may not know who we are because of screen names but who is to say that we may have not been in the same EMT classes with one another. I know throughout my whole EMT course I became close to my fellow classmates who may have gone on to the paid world while others opted to stay as volunteers, and now, we may be arguing with one another and may not even be realizing it.

The bottom line is that we all have to remember that we are in this together. Whether we are paid or not we all have the same thing in our minds and our hearts and that is to help others in need.

So with that said, I would like nothing more than to put this forum to rest.

So... Rest In Peace "Attitudes Of Some EMS Providers" and may God watch over us as we, (ALL OF US) administer aid to those in need and may He watch over the safety of ourselves as well as our crews. And most of all, the life and well being of our patients. AMEN

[roeems87 0]

amen (btw, nice job mikeinet)

Edited January 14, 2006 by roeems87

[Guest]

i dont think there was a war, i just thought the issue needed to be discussed a bit more in depth, thats all. Maybe i come from an extreme example. Either way, its all good and has been a good discussion!

[Skooter92 7]

1) I don't really care what you call yourselves, whether paid, volunteer or some combination of the two, it's about response time and care delivered. If you aren't getting there in a timely fashion and doing the appropriate thing, you are failing to deliver care. PERIOD. This applies to "paid", "vollie", martians and jellyfish.

2) Other areas successfully integrate volunteer and paid staff by incorporating them into a system that makes NO differentiation between the two regarding performance objectives. The minute you allow one side or the other to perform to a lesser standard because of paid vs. volunteer, you have no system. Same work, same standards. Accept no substitutes.

3) I have the same pride and dedication whether I am getting paid or volunteering on a call. To bash each other on economic grounds makes little to no sense. Instead, what can you do to improve the state of care delivered in your neck of the woods?

4) I am gonna tick off some folks with this one....if you aren't out the door in a reasonable amount of time, turf the call to someone who has a crew in quarters or in the rig. Period. This business of ping-ponging calls for periods of time until someone gets out is ridiculous. Paid or volunteer, pass the call to someone you KNOW is ready to go, instead of passing the buck and hoping they'll be able to respond when you can't. If this means utilizing commercial/other paid services, combining volunteer staff during periods of the day to cover multiple districts, or having Mighty Mouse swoop down to transport the patient, swallow thy pride and do the right thing.

4) It's all about the patient. If it becomes about you, or your ego, or your organization's ego, stop doing EMS.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Skooter92

[BuffMedic236 0]

I've just only come upon this discussion today, and I can only say that all this bantering back and forth is fruitless. In my ten years in EMS (5 of them as paid) nothing has changed in the attidudes between the paid and the vollies.

All of us hold the same state card, as EMT's we are certified to preform the same standards of patient care. As Paramedics, we rely on our EMT's to help us care for the patient. I spent 2 years as line officer at a VAC that was troubled by poor staffing/response. When we recieved mutual aide from other organizations to cover our calls, not one of my members said thank you to them for bailing us out. Whats worse is that Vollie corps bash other Vollie Corps even more than Vollie vs. Paid. WILL ALL OF YOU GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paid or volunteer, we ALL have a JOB to do. That's get the patient to the hospital so the man with the M.D. after his name can treat them  and send them back home. As a Medic, I have and do at times work amongst voluteer agencies. My opinion is this, I don't care if you're paid or vollie. I don't care if you do 2 or 2000 calls a year. What it all boils down to is can you get me and my patient to the hospital. It's can I trust you with basic patient care while I preform Advanced Interventions. It's CAN YOU PUT YOUR DIFFERENCES ASIDE ABOUT PAID MEDICS/EMT's for the duration of this call and take care of this sick/hurt person whom all they care about is getting to the hospital.

We are all here in EMS because we love helping people. We are all on the same team.

However, it is the responsibility of the most experienced member, or the Paid employee, to help quash these issues and make us one happy disfunctional family. For those of you who've been complaining that the MEDICS don't listen to the orders that you give them, I have only one thing to say. No one has a right to boss around a medic aside from his/her Supervisor or a Paramedic senior to them.

Paid Medic/EMT's do respond to more calls than volunteers. Paid people DO treat more patients than vollies do. It should not be their intention to rub it into the noses of the vollies in oreder to humilliate them and "put them in their place".

We can all learn from eachother. There are vollies taht I know who are much more competent than some paid EMT's I know. And vice versa.

As a parting thought I leave you all with this. Volunteers rely on ALS services to provide such care. Those services are PAID. Paid services (Fly Car Medics) often times rely on volunteer agencies to transport their patients because of their location and level or service their contract provides.

So take a deep breath everyone........exhale............GOOSE FABAH.............WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM!!!! Stop acting like children and play nice in the sandbox.

←

To Damien Fire: GOOSE FABAH, That's so funny comming from you!!! Considering last weeks events, I thought you don't play nice in the sandbox. LOL

Not for nothing people it seems there are great diffrences in the perception that volunteers and paid EMS have towards each other. But in the end, it's all about the patient. If you are a volunterer, who cares what your response time is, the point is that you got there. If you are a paid person, do your job and stop complaining about everything except the $$$.

[KelliPVAC 32]

To Damien Fire:  GOOSE FABAH, That's so funny comming from you!!! Considering last weeks events, I thought you don't play nice in the sandbox. LOL

Not for nothing people it seems there are great diffrences in the perception that volunteers and paid EMS have towards each other. But in the end, it's all about the patient.  If you are a volunterer, who cares what your response time is, the point is that you got there. If you are a paid person, do your job and stop complaining about everything except the $$$.

←

I agree with you. We are here to do the same thing. The important thing is that the pt gets the care they need.

Although, I don't like the comment that "vollies" don't care about the chest pain calls, a call is a call, that when I'm on duty, I have to go.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, don't we all take the same NYS test??

Hopefully this is a done issue.