Nothing showing?

[HFD750 6]

I have something to bring up,Just want to put my 2 cents in. Why do we and I say we because my department also says it which I'm trying to get away from. Anyway why do we say Nothing showing? Just because we don't see anything on the outside dosen't mean there isn't anything on the inside right? We had fire one night it came in as a poss. Structure fire I pulled up first and there was nothing showing, now if I said that I'm thinkin it might have slowed some people down thinking it was not a fire. Upon checkin further it turned out to be a working fire in the basement.So why do we say it? If you don't see anything from the outside dosen't mean anything untill you check out the inside. How do you feel ?

[mikeinet 37]

I understand what you're saying... but I think it helps to depict to the rest of the world the "initial size up" of a scene. If you roll up to a house and you have fire showing out all sides of the house - it draws a different picture than one with nothing showing and then finding a basement fire... rolling up to a fully involved fire where you can see the glow from a mile away vs a basmement fire you can roll up to and hope to get out quickly before it progresses to the above... I don't think it should "slow people down" from thinking its not a fire, but it helps a lot of people... say you say to 60ctl, "xx on scene, I have fire showing from all 4 sides" - they might start the ball on mutual aid or getting ready to roll the mutual aid and be set when you call for it - while this isnt like a 10 minute process... its still the mindset it puts everybody in.

Shrug - I see your point too.

[firecapt32 282]

the term "nothing showing" is the wrong information to send--the correct message shoud be "nothing showing form the street or nothing showing from the outside"

we seem to forget the full sentence like "happy as a clam" is supposed to be "happy as a clam at high tide".

just my thought

have a safe holiday

firecapt 32

[mfc2257 464]

Nothing Showing shouldn't be used on the radio to describe what is going on.

When the first unit arrives on location, if something is showing, they'll announce it. If they mark on location and say nothing else, then one would think that they are investigating the nature of the call. If and when they find the fire or lack there of, they'll place the box in service, or request that communications strike alarm for a working structure fire.

Nothing showing adds ZERO value to any radio transmission, and can only serve to stand in the way if something does turn out to be wrong. Either something is on fire or its not. There is no room for grey area in the fire service, and the term nothing showing facilitates grey area.

[HFD750 6]

Nothing Showing shouldn't be used on the radio to describe what is going on.

When the first unit arrives on location, if something is showing, they'll announce it.  If they mark on location and say nothing else, then one would think that they are investigating the nature of the call.  If and when they find the fire or lack there of, they'll place the box in service, or request that communications strike alarm for a working structure fire.

Nothing showing adds ZERO value to any radio transmission, and can only serve to stand in the way if something does turn out to be wrong.  Either something is on fire or its not.  There is no room for grey area in the fire service, and the term nothing showing facilitates grey area.

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I agree 100% Well said.

[IzzyEng4 427]

We use "Nothing Showing, Out Investigating" for an outside street box pull station only. We vary rarely use and discurage members to use this when responding to any other type of call. If it is a structure call we always give a size up and say we are investigating even if we do not "see" anything. If we are giving an update about the investigation, we will say "we are checking, so far nothing showing" for short lingo, but this is by no means an indication of "ok pack up we're out of here."

I agree with you all in what you are saying and if this term is being used, make sure that it is used for one specific thing. Just remember how you say it and when you use it can be misunderstood. I know this for a fact 'cause one of my guys said nothing showing, while I was pulling a line to the back porch. It has to be specific and mean that you are investigating and the response is still the same until we are certain there is no incident.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I guess I gotta be in the minority but I disagree. Nothing Showing on arrival is obviously from the outside and should stop the majority of the response from killing themselves to get there. There are depts around us that don't give a size-up 75% of the time no matter what is showing so assuming nothing said equals nothing visible is worse. What I beleive is worse is the poor terminolgy when something is showing. We hear a bunch of fully involved reports when there is only smoke showing.

We use the "Nothing Showing" followed by investigating on all calls. This says, yeah it was reported as a strucutre fire but on arrival it is not readily apparent. There is a huge difference in teh amount of fire and level of involvement between a building with nothing sshowing and one with fire or smoke showing.

My 2 cents. Bring it!

[HFD750 6]

I guess I gotta be in the minority but I disagree. Nothing Showing on arrival is obviously from the outside and should stop the majority of the response from killing themselves to get there. There are depts around us that don't give a size-up 75% of the time no matter what is showing so assuming nothing said equals nothing visible is worse. What I beleive is worse is the poor terminolgy when something is showing. We hear a bunch of fully involved reports when there is only smoke showing.

We use the "Nothing Showing" followed by investigating on all calls. This says, yeah it was reported as a strucutre fire but on arrival it is not readily apparent. There is a huge difference in teh amount of fire and level of involvement between a building with nothing sshowing and one with fire or smoke showing.

My 2 cents. Bring it!

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So your saying you think you should say nothing showing when pulling up to a house that was a reported poss structure fire?

One more example we had a call about 3 years ago activated alarm units arrived called on location nothing showing. It's 3am my guess and it can't just be me that some of the men and women of my department were home listening to there scanners saying just a false alarm. Well we checked the exterior of the building and there was nothing untill the two second story windows blew out. It was a working fire just wasn't ready to say hi yet. My thing is don't say anything unless you know what you have!! Your on location that good and 60-control understands that,now check it out what do you have? Are you sure? if so then say it. Me personally Treat every alarm as if it was a fire.Always drive safe ,use caution but you never know what your in store for so be prepared.

Edited December 22, 2005 by HFD750

[JohnnyOV 2]

I guess I gotta be in the minority but I disagree. Nothing Showing on arrival is obviously from the outside and should stop the majority of the response from killing themselves to get there. There are depts around us that don't give a size-up 75% of the time no matter what is showing so assuming nothing said equals nothing visible is worse. What I beleive is worse is the poor terminolgy when something is showing. We hear a bunch of fully involved reports when there is only smoke showing.

We use the "Nothing Showing" followed by investigating on all calls. This says, yeah it was reported as a strucutre fire but on arrival it is not readily apparent. There is a huge difference in teh amount of fire and level of involvement between a building with nothing sshowing and one with fire or smoke showing.

My 2 cents. Bring it!

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Dont worry, your not alone! I will go down in flames with you on this one...pun intended. For me, hearing "XXXXX 10-19, 10-84 Nothing Showing" means that I dont have to worry about "takeing my time" or not. Im not talking about driving like a bat out of hell with 30 blue lights and an old air raid siren blareing on my car to make the Eng or Truck. Also when im in the appuratus and I hear nothing showing It lets me gather myself and go through that checklist in my head a little eaiser then if they had arrived on scene for a possible 10-75, and just said 10-19...

Well what does that mean? Are you on the scene and things are so *#%$$% crazy that the person radioing 60-control dropped the mic because the roof just blew off, or that the homeowner is outside in the driveway telling the driver, it was just food on the stove. It helps me greatly with my intial size up. It lets me know that if there is/was a fire, I need to be wary of backdraft if it has died down, among other things.

Last rant...How is the 5 seconds it takes to say 10-19, nothing showing blocking VALUBLE RADIO TIME if nothing is going on??

my $.01999999 as well

[roeems87 0]

Rather than type out a reply to this one... This is topic we have discussed EXACTLY in the past about intial assessments of the scene. We talking about it with fire and EMS and the value of it, etc. Some of the points made were pretty good and others brought up issues about wasting air time (though I don't think 10 seconds is ever any kind of waste unless your whistling). If anyone can find the old topic, that would probably bring some good points back. I can't seem to find it... I looked for about 5 minutes...

[bob803 1]

Exactly what everyone is saying communication. Everyone( dept members) must be on the same page when talking about nothing showing. If you are responding and someone says nothing showing is safe to assume from the outside. Sometimes yes if that is the meaning that is understood by everyone. Remembering that you can not be complacient such as the example given earlier by HFD with the basement fire. You can not just sit back and take your time getting to a call or go in and check it out w/o a pack.

[turk182 37]

Nothing showing is part of the size up, what do you do when you pull up and there are 20 work trucks in front of the home? I know I say workmen on premise. All you are doing is letting people know what your initial size up is. Common sense should be keep coming just take it a little easier. I can not see anything wrong with letting people know what you know.

[mfc2257 464]

I love how people retreat to the fight attitude on so many topics and start adding &%&*$@#@%$ and act if they are cursing at each other.

Like it or not, the term Nothing Showing has created a sense of complacency with FF's over the years. So EMSJunkie, when you hear the first arriving unit transmit a Nothing Showing you might be smart enough to sit back and take a deep breath so that you can make sure you're ready for anything when you step off the rig, but what too many other FF's do is become lazy. They don't finish packing up, their gear isn't buttoned, their hood isn't on, they haven't discussed thier assignements on the jump seat, they don't have their flashlight, they don't know what tool they are pulling, the officer on the rig doesn't call for an assignment, the MPO doesn't look for the hydrant when he makes the last turn onto the street etc etc.

There is nothing more frustrating as an officer than seeing guys step off the rig not ready to work. In my book, every time a rig pulls onto a scene, every member of that unit should be ready to work upon arrival. I don't care if it's bells sounding due to contractors setting off the alarm, food on the stove, or a fully involved OMD, unpreparedness is inexcusable. Nothing Showing transmissions over the years have led to unpreparedness.

AND a more technical point.

With modern construction we arrive at more and more reported fires where there isn't anything showing. Why... Insulation, double pane windows, central heating/AC, etc etc.... make houses more and more air tight every day... if the homeowner shut a few doors on his way out of the house there is a good chance that an entire section of a house could be involved and just waiting for more oxygen. You may arrive an nothing is showing, but the second someone makes entry there will be plenty showing.... And plenty of guys riding on the first due assignment who are thinking more about getting back to sleep as opposed to who's going to have the knob, forceable entry, OVM, roof man, hydrant, search... etc.

Argue back and forth all you want, but until someone can get the folks that become complacent on the ball with the rest of us, the term Nothing Showing does more harm than good.

[10-8 0]

heres my .02

Each scenario is always different. I think by saying xxx 10-84 nothing showing, investigating is a good reply. Think about it you are on scene (84) at that particular time there is no obvious chaos(nothing showing) You need to check the premises more thorough(investigating)

This is a good initial size up. Everyone responding shall still know that it is a preliminary reply and shortly after there will be another transmission. It can be nothing or a big something, but we shouldn't get complacent and assume it is nothing

It is the job of every F.F. to be 110% prepared at all times. The biggest problem is we all interpret nothing showing differently..

Why??? It should be universal expect the unexpected. You never know..

We all interpret a 10-75 the same so why not get on the same page for the initial

response

[Remember585 815]

My Department is pretty good about using clear-text for everything. Most of the time, the first arriving unit will say something like, "Engine 119 on location investigating." Very rarely does one of our units say nothing showing. Our PD has on many occassions said nothing showing, only to be wrong about their statement.

One instructor at a class I took called "nothing showing" the kiss of death. I think he was right. Nothing wrong with saying "On location investigating" or even "On location checking."

I think too many Departments rely on the PD's initial report to make a choice about thier apparatus responses. I know it pushes my buttons when our responding Chief holds us all in quarters based on PD information or even worse, alarm company info. That's why I like it best when one rig at a minimum continues in to verify the condition - that's what we're SUPPOST TO DO!

[Fire24 1]

Preparation and training to do your job is the only thing that will help prevent the confusion that comes with terms like "nothing showing." From Chiefs to Firefighters everyone needs to be prepared to do your job on every single call. Complacency is what gets people hurt - something that nobody ever wants to have happen to their crews.

Although I have to say I've heard too many times on the radio Chiefs or apparatus arriving on scene to a carbon monoxide alarm and report "nothing showing." :angry:

Makes me wonder if more training is needed or people are going to classes just to get a certificate.

[Guest]

..."It lets me gather myself and go through that checklist in my head a little eaiser then if they had arrived on scene for a possible 10-75..."

I agree with Fire24- complacency is a dangerous attitude to have. You should approach every call in the same organized, focused, and calm manner; regardless if the OIC calls 'nothing showing' or 'working fire'.

[4truck48 25]

If your dispatched to a report of a structure fire there are one of only two reports that the first arriving unit should give. Ladder X is on location (10-84), investigating, or Ladder X is on location ( 10- 84) we have a working fire ( 10- 75). All of the other stuff is just people who like to hear themselves talk. If you have a 10 story apartment house you could have three floors of fire in he rear that you can't see from the front what happens if you say nothing showing? Another report thats often given is workers on the scene, so what, how many times have those workers, plumbers, painters actually been the one who caused the fire by soldering or burning paint off. Don't assume it's nothing until you know it's nothing.

[firecapt32 282]

Thers a lot of money floating around in this fourm--- lewts collect it and send it to BurnCare Everywhere Foundation Inc

283 Tarrytown Road

White Plains ,New York 10607

If you dont know thats a foundation that I run working in connection with the Burn Center in Westchester and believe me every .02 cents help.

no matter what the initial call is every firefighter on the rig shoud have a pre determined concept of what they are supposed to be doing. ie what tools to take on all alarms, what line is standard, which person is respopnsible to make the hydrant, ect.

I still believe that plain language is best but as long as every one inthe department knows what the language means you can call it what ever you want. but like I have said in others posts check NIMS and see what they say .

If your department is looking for grants starting on 2006 they are required to have some sort IMS system in place along with training records.

Its time to bring every department up to speed lets all move ahead. the citizens we protect deserve the best nothing else will do

Have a safe holiday

firecapt32

[dadbo46 50]

AMEN !!!

[Guest]

allways allways allways be prepared with full gear! it will make a difference. nothing showing in my oppinion is good. you have to do a proper size up after that it does change the response of incoming apparatus ie is the first engine going to drop a supply line on a long driveway in a out of hydrant district or is the engine going to wait for the truck to get in a driveway also on automatic tanker dispatch it will change the response in hazardous weather conditions. in no means when i report nothing showing doesn't mean theirs no problem but you have to look at the signs of something happening look at the windows, eaves, chimney and the otherside of the building.

[CPFD91206 0]

Alot of this falls on the officers themselves. They need to develop a SOG regardless if its a "working fire" ( which I didn't know they had jobs, if its inside the building its a damn structure fire no matter how you look at it, if its outside its a BS fire unless it extends) or if it is a "AFA". "ACME CAR 99 on scene investigating" This lets everybody know that HEY somebody with a radio is there before us and I bet they'll advise us REAL QUICK if the s*** hits the fan but we will continue responding in a SAFE AND PRUDENT fashion.

As far as getting off the piece not ready to go to work, AGAIN officers what are you teaching your FNG's obviously nothing... this is FF 101 training here. If the people occupying the seats on the apparatus don't know what to do then you need to develop a plan or educate them what job assignment they get with that position on the apparatus. Laminated cards or extinguisher tag holders with assignments work great,zip tie it to visible area on/near that seat.

ex. "SEAT 4 Nozzleman" scba #4 radio#4 Flashlight #4 locate source of fire extinguish......... sounds simple

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Who ever said they were the minority, your not that alone.

"nothing showing" is a phrase that when used properly gives information. It should be followed with some other basic info as some have pointed out. "Engine whatever is on location, nothing showing from sides A and D." At least it gives some information to those still responding. Once you begin to investigate your gonna give another update as to conditions inside as well. Using additional terminology, lets someone know and should remind the person that is giving the report that size up is 360 degrees and that 2 sides on the exterior still need to be checked.

As far as wearing your gear...what needs to be said about that? I do disagree with one statement that officers who allow this aren't teach their "FNG's" anything. I've noticed that newer trained personnel tend to wear it more then the "OFG's" or Old Fu(king guys. Complacency kills. Leadership by example. Its also another reason why I feel that apparatus should only respond with a minimum staffing level of a operator, and 2 interior firefighters who have gear on and SCBA doffed to be ready to rid at least some not getting fully geared right away.

[CAM502 6]

If your dispatched to a report of a structure fire there are one of only two reports that the first arriving unit should give. Ladder X is on location (10-84), investigating, or Ladder X is on location ( 10- 84) we have a working fire ( 10- 75). All of the other stuff is just people who like to hear themselves talk. If you have a 10 story apartment house you could have three floors of fire in he rear that you can't see from the front what happens if you say nothing showing?

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"Nothing showing", is your intial report. Engxxx 10-84, nothing showing. It means just that. They are on the scene and don't see anything yet. I don't know about where you are from but this is always followed up by an investigation. Beleive me if it is blowing out the rear windows you will know a minute later. and you will here "Engxxx to dispatch Heavy fire from windows on the #3 and 4 floors..." followed by " fill it out" or "10-75" or " give me a 2nd alarm" or whatever it is they need.

[mfc2257 464]

Alot of this falls on the officers themselves. They need to develop a SOG  regardless if its a "working fire" ( which I didn't know they had jobs, if its inside the building its a damn structure fire no matter how you look at it, if its outside its a BS fire unless it extends) or if it is a "AFA".  "ACME CAR 99 on scene investigating" This lets everybody know that HEY somebody with a radio is there before us and I bet they'll advise us REAL QUICK if the s*** hits the fan but we will continue responding in a SAFE AND PRUDENT fashion.

As far as getting off the piece not ready to go to work, AGAIN officers what are you teaching your FNG's obviously nothing... this is FF 101 training here. If the people occupying the seats on the apparatus don't know what to do then you need to develop a plan or educate them what job assignment they get with that position on the apparatus. Laminated cards or extinguisher tag holders with assignments work great,zip tie it to visible area on/near that seat.

ex. "SEAT 4 Nozzleman" scba #4 radio#4 Flashlight #4 locate source of fire extinguish......... sounds simple

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Don't assume that officers aren't teaching their guys what they need to do to be prepared. If I was riding the officers seat, each and every guy on the rig was ready to work, and knew their assignement. I trained with all my surrounding companies and knew that their guys were taught the right way but that didn't mean that every guy followed the rules and was ready to work when they stepped off their rig at one of my calls. You can't put the fire service in a box and think that each time you open it that it's going to come out the same way. That is why ambiguous phrases like "nothing showing" in my oppinion to more harm than good. All you need is one bad apple on a rig where there is no officer to say to the guys, "what are you wasting your time putting all that stuff on for, the Chief said there is "noting showing" it's just going to be BS"...

[JohnnyOV 2]

Although I have to say I've heard too many times on the radio Chiefs or apparatus arriving on scene to a carbon monoxide alarm and report "nothing showing."   

Makes me wonder if more training is needed or people are going to classes just to get a certificate.

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I too have heard this...Its probally out of bad habit / rut for Auto Alarms

[Alfons0x66 0]

My thing is don't say anything unless you know what you have!! Your on location that good and 60-control understands that,now check it out what do you have? Are you sure? if so then say it. Me personally Treat every alarm as if it was a fire.Always drive safe ,use caution but you never know what your in store for so be prepared.

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well said chief

[IzzyEng4 427]

"ALL WAYS EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED!"