Mini Attacks

[CM36 4]

What are your feelingds about Mini Attacks ?

What should they be used for ? What calls should they run ?

Personaly I like these rigs. I think that they are a perfect rig to run on brush fires, Accident calls, and to use on EMS a QRS truck. I stead of taking a big huge engine to a ems call you can take a 4 door mini pumper that has all the tools that u need on a EMS call. Second if you get a call for a brush fire these rigs are perfect you can get this rig closer to the fire then a big bulky engine. The best example of this type of rig is Yorktown MA-8 which is a great rig. It has seating for Four Firefighters it has a pump and a good amount of room to fit gear in. The only change that I would make to the rig is to add a box to the top of the rigs body to add for more storage space.

What do u think I really would like to know what everyone thinks ?

Just remenber that this is YOUR OPINION and they are like a******* everyone has one.

[Cutty630 37]

I'm from Bedford Hills and we have a 1989 Saulsbury mini Attack (MA-9). Right now we use it for piaa's and brush calls, when we first got it it was used a lot more. Like it's brother (our old mini attack) it was used for every call, it went out first due for everything. In the late 90's like 96 97 there was talk of shifting it to the back row. It only carries 250 gallons of water so with the change in construction and fire load it just wasn't smart to keep it first due. But before the change happened there was an accident in the winter where the rig went off the road. There was one other firefighter besides myself on the back step. He was slightly injured with a back problem and I was fine, so that was pretty much the final straw and it was shifted to the back row.

Right now we use it for brush calls and piaa's where it suits our needs. We have a decent amount of Brush equipment on it and are looking into purchasing more for the rig. We also roll second due with our rescue to piaa's. We have a lucas cutter and a combi tool as well as a gas power unit on it. As I write this the powers that be are looking into a little bit of refurbishing on it. Changing some compartments, adding some more storage boxes for brush equip and cribbing for accidents, as well as putting a highly needed white reflective stripe on it. So as I ramble on we definately need and use our Mini Attack to the fullest of it's capeabilities (sp?). Did I mention that we brought it to Altona during the big winter storm a couple of years ago.

[mfc2257 464]

All depends on how they are built. A lot of people classify a utility with a small pump or a brush truck as a Mini Attack when they aren't.

In 1990 Millwood replaced the old MA-10/E-246/R-36 with two rigs. A Ford L9000 Rescue and a F350 MiniAttack. MA-10 is truly a mini engine. It has a 750gpm (yes 750 not 250 or 300) single stage (that will actually do close to 1000gpm with a good source) and a pre-piped "B" foam line, 1000 ft. of 4in, 3 pre connects, a 16foot combi ladder, winch, chain saw, Indian tanks, several hundred feet of forrestry hose, full complement of extinguishers, adaptors, rakes shovels, rescue rope etc, etc, etc. Truly a mini engine. It was designed to be a font line pumper for gated driveways that a class "A" pumper cant get into, car fires and brush fires. 4wd makes it great to run first due in a snow storm.

[RES20CUE 40]

All depends on how they are built. A lot of people classify a utility with a small pump or a brush truck as a Mini Attack when they aren't. 

I agree! The problem is that "Good Ol' County Control" made the "Mini-Attack" designation back in the late 1970's, and back then the only "Mini's" around were "Brush Trucks".

Now that NFPA has a seperate catagory for "Initial Attack Apparatus", the County should change again, and make all "MA's" meet the NFPA requirement, just as they are with the other apparatus.

As for the true "Brush Trucks", designate them just that- Brush! So for Somers instead of MA-13 and MA-14, it would be Brush 13 and Brush 14, because they are truely brush trucks and not designed to meet NFPA Inital Attack Apparatus specs!

[chris498 31]

Actually, Katonah's 1970 International/Gowans Knight Mini Attack was set up to be the first due fire engine at all of our calls........ it did that for 14 years........

As for Mini-Attacks today, they still can serve a purpose..... we still use our Mini-Attack for a variety of roles....second due to all MVA/PIAA's, Brush Fires, Road closings, but it also can still be used as a first line piece in adverse weather because it has 4WD..... great in the snow and in flood conditions, plus it can serve as a small, get in tight places unit in all parts of our district....

I don't think using a mini attack as a first line piece to a structural call is the wisest thing in todays day and age, even if it has a four door cab. When you never know how far out help is, how can you justify sending a vehical with maybe your only driver, and only a 200-750 gpm pump and 200 - 300 gallons of water?????? It just is not practicle or safe for property owners or especially for firefighters.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The department in Virginia I was a member of a few years ago, in fact my company I belonged to spec'd and got a "midi attack" which is a mini attack on steroids. I didn't like the idea then and I don't like the idea now for the same reasons I stated back then are the same reasons why they are getting rid of it. I'm not saying they don't have any use, but this is the reason why I don't find them feasible:

First, crew integrity. I'd rather have all my chips in one basket, then have to split off personnel to run this thing to other types of calls, specifically referring to the EMS call running opinon. (more on that in a minute) If you feel you need it for a brush piece due to areas where it fits, then the engine with the personnel should be on the run also.

Second, as far as taking engines on EMS calls, I don't see a problem. We take them on fire alarms, at least EMS is something that regardless of what we deem as a need, it is a need to them. When apparatus response starts being questioned for certain types of calls, then all calls should be looked at. As far as I'm concerned there isn't a truck that shouldn't be used for EMS when you provide it. Once you do it, you do it right and that includes ladder trucks. That heart attack, SOB or Stroke is 10 times more important then being on a fire alarm, that's why we have mulitple units and why its critical to be a leader and know how to perform resource management.

Third, unit availability. Once I clear that other call, I have my engine ready for another, wouldn't want to have to respond to back to the FH to pick up the engine for a call I can just respond to because I am already there.

The only way I would like to see a MA come rolling in to where I work would be as a support piece only. Being a brush truck with some rescue extra's or hazmat or towing a hazmat or MCI trailer.

[x635 4,066]

I recently read an article on this subject in one of the magazines, I wish I could remember where.

I feel Mini-Attacks should be a suppplemental piece, or utility piece, but never replace a front line unit.

I think the are useful in certain situations, such as narrow driveways/limited access (parking garages, trails,courtyards) where they can get closer to the fire and act as manifold units, as brush rigs, to sit at a wires down call, to respond to EMS calls as a first responder unit. If you have the staffing, then there's no need to put wear and tear on a $400-$700,000 piece of equipment. It also keeps the other apparatus free for fire calls. (As for the EMS comment,note that this concept only applies to volunteer response. Career department response should be determined by closest available unit) You should never deplete your crews for your true first line units, and as said before this should only be a supplemental piece. I believe it is Rochester, NY that runs a Midi Pumper/Quint concept like this.

As far as chasis are concerned, what does everybody feel is the most appropriate chasis for a mini attack?

[mfc2257 464]

Plenty of Chassis will work but to be honest, the Ford Super Duty (F-250-F550) have long proven to be the most popular. The new 6.0 Liter Powerstroke is the best diesel engine in the class as far as power and fuel economy goes. There is nothing wrong with Chevy's and Dodges but the Fords seem to have the best total package. Chevy's interiors are more comfortable and the Duramax is a quieter motor. I rarely see Ram's in emergency service. One note on the Fords though... They're rock solid, HOWEVER the automatic transmissions that came with the old 7.4L Powerstoke were prone to failing if they became overheated. If you buy a used Ford have the tranny looked at with a fine toothed comb and if you are going to use it to plow or tow, I suggest a larger tranny cooler and a larger finned aluminum tranny pan to add more fluid and help cool more. Also add a tranny temp gauge. Anything more than 220degres for 5 or so minutes and you're getting into trouble.

[Task Force 7 65]

As far as chasis are concerned, what does everybody feel is the most appropriate chasis for a mini attack?

Ford!!!!

[chris 18]

MA/10 from millwood what a machine, I am talking about the Kings College fire. That M/A shot up the big hill behind the school dropping hose for Croton and Ossining to draft and relay to.

What a great idea to use a mini attack. It climbed the hill

bringing plenty of equiptment saving alot of time and energy that was needed later in the day. No full size engine could have gotten up the hill.

Every FD should have a mini attack.

It is a great resource with an endless amount of potential.

[mfc2257 464]

MA-10 Loves to be ridden hard and hung up wet.

[Guest DG795]

On the subject of Mini Attacks, Here are some of the issues that designed the new MA-8:

Versatility- In 1968, Brush fire made up a good percentage of the runs, and a dedicated brush vehicle was a neccessary tool. Yorktown has required a mini attack for brush fire twice in the past two years. The demand is no longer prevelant, however having a Mini Attack for those few incidents is a great asset.....SO....The new mini attack was designed with a removable skid unit that holds the pump and tank...allowing for use as a industrial pickup if neccessary. The Mini Attack is also designed to tow the Dive Team's Trailer, The Light Tower, etc. In addition, MA8 will in the future be responding to wires down, unility assists, pump outs, etc. to sum it up, we designed a rig that could be used for brush fires if necessary, but also could be used for a variety of other applications, therefore getting more out of the unit then would be possible if it was strictly a brush unit.

Price- MA8 is a 2001 Ford pickup that originally saw service as a chiefs vehicle. after a couple years of service it has been converted into what it is today. This saved a huge amount of money, and allowed for the conversion of a current vehicle, instead of the development of an entirely new one.

[Guest WPC1986]

Can some one tell me what a QA-1 is or was?

[chris498 31]

I think that QA 1 belonged to the Somers FD. It was a 1987 Ford F-450 chassis with Reading utility bodywork. It is now Utility 5. It had a skid unit with a dry chem. unit and I believe carried the Jaws and other rescue and first response gear. It was SFD's "Highway" response unit.

I have a slide of this unit somewhere I will try to find it and post it this week.

[TRUCK6018 50]

As Chris had said, QA1 did belong Somers. QA stood for quick attack.

It was a "state of the art" structural fire supression system that consisted of a 500 pound dry chem tank, 250 gallon water tank and 30 gallon foam tank on a skid unit. There was no pump.

All of the containers were pressurized vessels as the dry chem was delivered by a compressed nitrogen cylinder and the water/foam by a compressed air cylinder. After the tanks were pressurized the product was flowed though two 1 inch booster hoses fused together. One for the dry chem, one for the water/foam.

The theory behind the system was to knock down the fire with dry chem, then cool it off with water, water/foam mixture.

The problem with the system were many. Once you ran out of water, you could not refill on site and the vehicle was nothing but in the way. Once you ran out of the compressed air or nitrogen, you had to change the cylinders back in the barn. To refill the dry chem was a project.

The skid was mounted on a 1987 Ford F350 chassis with a utility body. Also carried on the vehicle were the hurst tool and air bags.

QA1 was converted into U5 in 1996 with the delivery of E-183 (rescue pumper). E-183 currently carries the Hurst tool, air bags, etc, along with a 500 gal booster tank and 30 gal foam tank.

Once Rescue 20 gets built and delivered, a new set of jaws will go on that.

U5 is the same utility body pick up but much more functional. It's now used for fire police equiptment (flares, cones, barricades) along with trash pumps for pump outs and a portable generator.

There is also a QA 2 in the Vista Fire Department. It is a 1990 GMC TopKick with a Salsbury body. More info on that can be found on www.vistafd.org.

[Guest WPC1986]

Ok we now know what the QA was for and it's questionable use.

Now who gave it the name Quick Attack (QA-#).

My guess it was some thing though up because no one else had it. I had checked with the county (fire Control ) they have always used MA. And from reading above we all know what MA means.

Like the old saysing goes.

BIG BOYS BIG TOYS.

[chris498 31]

Questionablle use? It was called a quick attack because it was just that...... a quick attack. A unit that required little set up.... packed some punch and could get a head start on things while the to quote "big toys" took time to set up; there was really nothing big about these units.

This concept of a small fast moving quick to spring into actin unit is not new, in fact it is very strikingly similar to the chemical units of the late 19th and early 20th century .

Quick Attacks if you really looked at the details of such a unit would seam to imply a small rig with firefighting capabilities and rescue abilities...... Questionable use? They had a purpose..... they served it. QA2 still fulfills that roll today!!!!

Something someone made up..... like the first mini-attack, some made that up too.... they used to be called patrols.