Have Probies Changed Over The Years?

[Larryalb 0]

My comments were not intended for you Tom, I don't think any of the probies you were envolved with have hit the fire house yet. My comments were more directed to the life and times we live in. disapline is not a top priorty these days, maybe it will come back. But as you know or should know when you are envolved in an emergency operation the chain of command needs to be followed. That should mean we should have the best of the best leading. I don't think this is the case. There are too many leaders that are not leaders and are setting waiting for someone to make the decisions. Too may of our young have not known the process of receiving orders, and they get promoted and don't know how to give orders. This is not just related to the fire service. Ther were the different names for the kids growing up. The baby booomers, the flower children, it goes on and on. These different groups floated different boats.

Just because things change doesn't always mean they have change for the best. I have some personal objections to some.

I know when we used to repel we never used belays, obviusly now you look at it and say to yourself what a$$ we were. There have been many many changes for the good that have saved lives and injuries. There is no question that we will need to have many more changes to make a bigger difference. I don't want to get in to the changes other than the disapline and the way we have to pick our leaders.

The progress is good. The bldg. dept. or codes are going to put us out of business. I don't think anyone can condem them. Fire prevention has made a big difference in to the way and how many fire we catch. We used to have 1 man on fire prevention and that was punishment, then it went to 10 and started getting serious. Companies going out on inspections continuously. It diffinately has made a difference.

My comment re keeping the mouth shut was and is intended to the less experienced firefighter from shooting their mouth of because they think they know everything. Part of the job is getting along with one another, We have to work as a team, That part of the difference between cops and firefighter they work by themselvs we have to bwork with one another. It was said earlier that there can't be shirkers and they need to realize that senoity has to be earned. That is also part of the learning process. We all know if someone was a dumb kid when they grow up they usually are a dumb adult. they don't just get smart. I was an exception to that. The young need to know when it is appropriate to take over the conversation, and know not to put across they are the experts. There are ways and there are ways to do this. That is part of growing up and experience. Part of age and senoirty is the realization that you don't know everything, the more you know the more you find you don't know.

To go futher I don't thing the previous instructors did a bad job either. I also know what I had as a probie you would laugh, so I won't go into that, but what I did and are still doing, is to know that I don't know everything, and still need to hit the books or what ever else is available Montour Etc. I had to almost sneak to get to Montour . Now they send half the job all over the country. It all has to start somewhere, I have been lucky enough to see this with my own eyes. Just since 911, look at all the changes, someone is now paying attention. This all goes back to the orignal question re: the probies and senior men, tradition etc. There needs to be change, but we also need to maintain tradition. We need to be proud of what we do, and bring that to the probies, that is is ok to say "you like the job". I still hate fire prevention, but that doesn't mean that I don't think it is necessary or should be done by all firefighters, probie and senior, thats the way you know your first due etc. and keep the fire duty down.

I mentioned in my previous post about the 129 hours for the inservice training. I don't know how the smaller jobs are able to do it, I know how hard it was for our job to accomplish it. I know, I had to set the schedule and keep the records. The smaller jobs don't the luxuary of the manpower. They must be doing, it but I don't know how. I have seen some real positive changes with the different articles, internet, etc. to get the changes out.

Well it looks like I got carried away again. Enough is enough. we need spell check this is hard.

Have a good day

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I know you weren't larry. Just putting my opinion and spin on it. I hear all your saying, I'm just adding to it from my experience and insight. I agree with you on discipline as well, the liberals have taken much of that away. But like you said, its not something that is learned later in life, not to what some of us think should be.

[Guest]

ALS....first of all with your mastery of the english language one would think you were on the debate team in high school. However, having been a student of yours I know that you were more likely to beat up the debate team in high school....just kidding (thanks for the many lessons). Anyway, thank you for making your points. It is not everyday that a seasoned veteran can stand up for the new guys. In any aspect of life the older generation TENDS to look down on the newer generation. It all comes back to a simple developmental issue: "with time comes wisdom".....which is true but that doesn't mean with time comes respect or superiority. On the flip side there are some overly confident "rookies" with a tad too much swagger in their step. I love this topic.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Hey I was one of those over-confident rookies, lol. Some call it arrogance, I'm just comfortable with my abilities.

[Guest]

ALS....first of all with your mastery of the english language one would think you were on the debate team in high school. However, having been a student of yours I know that you were more likely to beat up the debate team in high school....just kidding (thanks for the many lessons). Anyway, thank you for making your points. It is not everyday that a seasoned veteran can stand up for the new guys. In any aspect of life the older generation TENDS to look down on the newer generation. It all comes back to a simple developmental issue: "with time comes wisdom".....which is true but that doesn't mean with time comes respect or superiority. On the flip side there are some overly confident "rookies" with a tad too much swagger in their step. I love this topic.

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thanks, i like this topic too..i thought it would get a huge response

[Guest]

Hey I was one of those over-confident rookies, lol. Some call it arrogance, I'm just comfortable with my abilities. 

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let me ask you..how does your head fit in your helmet? haha

i'm also comfortable with my abilities, but over-confidence can be blinding.

[Remember585 815]

let me ask you..how does your head fit in your helmet? haha

i'm also comfortable with my abilities, but over-confidence can be blinding.

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Over-confidence leads to poor choices, injuries, and in worst case scenarios, death. I am a "jolly volly" myself, and from time to time anyone that knows me will say I can be arrogant and stubborn from time to time. Bottom line is this - if I know something - I express it.

And, for the record, Tommy's helmet looks like a beanie atop that massive cranium of his. But this is coming from a guy called "Roundhead," so take it as you will....

[Irons 0]

The Fire Service is ever changing. Larry Alb comes from a period in time where the actual FIRE DUTY was a great deal more than it is now. Thus, yes Larry, im sorry i do consider you OLD and SALTY...... to translate this in laymans terms...Larry gained the majority of his experience from crawling down dark hot hallways, opening roofs with fire underneath the cut, feeling the steam from when the nozzle moves the first water on the fire, forcefully entering locked doors with fire and smoke behind it. See, this is the MEAT and potatoes of the fire service. This is still our main agenda ... to preserve life and property from the ravages of the Red Devil. And i truly believe the point he is trying to convey is the Fire service is like any profession.... the more you have done it the better you get at it.... A carpenter doesnt become a carpenter by building one book shelve.....

But this is America, and yes everyone has their right to their free speech and opinion. An educated firefighter is absolutely wonderful!!!!!!!!!!! Combine it with experience and we have a WINNER in this business....throw in a dose of humility and a spirit of eagerness and openness and WE HAVE IT MADE...

Be safe to all the brothers...

[R1SmokeEater 359]

With all the compliments to ALS, I might have to sit in on one of your classes. I am curious (no sarcasim intended).I also believe that book knowledge is good (and a place to start), but experience is Better. I have seen that book go rite out the old window !! I also believe we are losing focus by trying to stick to "The book" and safety too much ! I like Old School !!!!

[Guest]

With all the compliments to ALS, I might have to sit in on one of your classes. I am curious (no sarcasim intended).I also believe that book knowledge is good (and a place to start), but experience is Better. I have seen that book go rite out the old window !! I also believe we are losing focus by trying to stick to "The book" and safety too much ! I like Old School !!!!

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with you all the way on that R1!! thanks!

[Guest]

Truckie,

I have been part of a department now for about three years and have been very, very active in the department making as many runs, events, and courses that the department has going on. I have been in several structure fires and operated at several serious MVAs that required the use of the tools. This past year we have had many probes join our department. Now being a junior I am seeing the way the probes are coming in and making a name for themselves and it DISGUSTES me the way they are being let into the department. There are two ways becoming a firefighter in a department. The Old fashion conservative way and the liberal way. When I first joined the department I was lower than dirt and I was treated that way until I made a good and respectful name for myself. I had to mop the floors, wash dishes, clean the trucks, check the hand tools, and much, much more. Over the year I was probationary I countinued to do these tasks without being asked because I knew it was my butt if the stuff didn't get done and didn't work at a alarm. I didn't have a problem doing these tasks because I knew how important it was. I think I turned out alright because I gained the respect of my fellow brothers and officers and they see me as a firefighter that knows his stuff and can be counted on to do the job when the bell/ alarm goes off. I am extremely happy that my fellow firefighters can count on me and treat me as a firefighter. Today with these probes the way they make a name for themselves is who can suck the chiefs off better and whoever can gets the good name with the chief. For example there is this one kid who is all buddy buddy with a chief and we call him the chiefs butt buddy because he gets out of all the work that needs to be done. When there is work to be done he runs away to the chief and stands behind him. For example, this particular probe was asked to grab a hand tool off the truck and clean it. The person who asked him to do this was a 10 plus year firefighter with our department and had been a NYC firefighter for twenty plus years. Do you know that the kid gave the other firefighter a hard time about cleaning a freaking tool!!! I can't believe it, then he tried to pass the job off to another senior firefighter!!! How pissed does that get you knowing you had to clean tools when you were a probe and he tries to get out of it and he did because the chief who he sucks off pulled him out of the work. Ahh it just gets to me that ahh I don't know. Another situation that would hopefully prove the point that I am trying to make is; all the probes had to go through a new course knowed as firefighter one and I am going to admit that the course is strenuous because all the material is taught at one time however it is the same as taking basic and intermediate and now you need the firefighter one course if you're new in order to become an interior firefighter. Anyway, the junior men about 6 of us had held a drill at our firehouse, we decided to bring about 10 of the probes along just so they could get some drill time in. We went through the evolutions and then had a debriefing about how everyone did and we started to critique. Once we came to one of these probes who had already took firefighter one he said that we were lucky to have him at the drill because he already completed the course and knew everything and there was no reason to him being there. I wanted to cut his throat out! Are you shitting me? A probe saying that to me. What has he seen within his couple of months joining the department a few minor things!!!! I couldn't believe it. Then the other night another probe said to me that he was thinking about running for second leutienent next year because he completed firefighter one, I was steaming angry. These probes come into the department thinking they are all big and bad and "their s*** doesn't stink" because they know everything.....These probes think they are in the department because they are buddy buddy with the chiefs well guess what they have a lot of firefighters and other officers who don't have any respect for them and want them out of the department. It is time to go and fix this big problem before it goes way way out of control, already than what it is. These probes need to know their place before they get themselves or someone else hurt. It is up to us firefighters and officers to make these probes into firefighters the old fashion and traditional way. They can not continue to act the way they are acting and holding themselves the way they are. Just because you have all the courses available that the state offers and you pass them all, it still DOES NOT beat experience. Experience is valuable and that makes you into a knowledgable and better firefighter. Brothers be safe and happy holidays.

[Guest]

I as a probie can see that thare are probies who act like they know every thing but some of the older guys should move out of the past and realize that probie are not unknowlgeable. but probies should understand that you will get the dirty work sometimes and you have to prove yourself.

[Guest]

I as a probie can see that thare are probies who act like they know every thing but some of the older guys should move out of the past and realize that probie are not unknowlgeable. but probies should understand that you will get the dirty work sometimes and you have to prove yourself.

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seniors guys shouldnt have to move out of the past. probies come into the dept. and come into a brotherhood of honor and tradition. senior men dont change for "knowledgeable" prbies. probies better learn to change to adapt to the job as it is and was...and one of the ways they do that is under the wings of the senior men. probies might learn a thing or two in the academy/ff1, big woop....better not let that get to your heads and think it means that you earned your place.

[Guest Truckie 1075]

The Fire Service is ever changing.  Larry Alb comes from a period in time where the actual FIRE DUTY was a great deal more than it is now.  Thus, yes Larry, im sorry i do consider you OLD and SALTY...... to translate this in laymans terms...Larry gained the majority of his experience from crawling down dark hot hallways, opening roofs with fire underneath the cut, feeling the steam from when the nozzle moves the first water on the fire, forcefully entering locked doors with fire and smoke behind it.  See, this is the MEAT and potatoes of the fire service.  This is still our main agenda ... to preserve life and property from the ravages of the Red Devil.  And i truly believe the point he is trying to convey is the Fire service is like any profession.... the more you have done it the better you get at it.... A carpenter doesnt become a carpenter by building one book shelve.....

But this is America, and yes everyone has their right to their free speech and opinion.  An educated firefighter is absolutely wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!    Combine it with experience and we have a WINNER in this business....throw in a dose of humility and a spirit of eagerness and openness and WE HAVE IT MADE...

Be safe to all the brothers...

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couldn't have said it better!!! amen!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Adapt to the job the way it is and was? I understand your point your making, but I disagree with that statement and have to shake my head. The job was once losing nearly 200 of us. We still hover at or over a 100 every year. I don't want what it was. Where it is at, ok maybe. But I want forward thinkers and movers.

If you in a department that makes you feel like you have to "prove" yourself, then to me that's trouble. Don't prove $hit. Just do your job and I will notice. When you get into words like "prove" then they feel they may have to do above and beyond and that can be dangerous.

Tradition is good for 2 things, reminding you of where you are at and stopping you from getting to where you should be.

[billwiegelman 1]

AMEN! They get on the job thinking the job owes them the world. Its pathetic and sad. Half these guys take this job just so they can get time off to concentrate on their B job. they have no interest in what the job is all about, just when their next day off is

[R1SmokeEater 359]

"Tradition is good for 2 things, reminding you of where you are at and stopping you from getting to where you should be."

-With all due respect, ALS to which traditions are you referring (I am curious) ? Where should we be ?

*10-4 on your post Wiegelman !

Edited January 5, 2006 by R1SmokeEater

[Guest]

Adapt to the job the way it is and was?  I understand your point your making, but I disagree with that statement and have to shake my head.  The job was once losing nearly 200 of us.  We still hover at or over a 100 every year.  I don't want what it was.  Where it is at, ok maybe.  But I want forward thinkers and movers.

If you in a department that makes you feel like you have to "prove" yourself, then to me that's trouble.  Don't prove $hit.  Just do your job and I will notice.  When you get into words like "prove" then they feel they may have to do above and beyond and that can be dangerous.

Tradition is good for 2 things, reminding you of where you are at and stopping you from getting to where you should be.

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you love to overthink everythiny i say dont you als...if you think at all that i meant that the "way it was" was referring to 200 ff's dying and that i feel that it should stay, then i have to SHAKE MY HEAD as you say. tradition isnt ff's dying or us still using horse pulled wagons, or using rubber coats...if thats what you think i'm talking about...spend a lil more time to understand what i mean, instead of assuming the worst with this topic

[Guest]

AMEN!  They get on the job thinking the job owes them the world.  Its pathetic and sad.  Half these guys take this job just so they can get time off to concentrate on their B job.  they have no interest in what the job is all about, just when their next day off is

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exactly...the job dont owe anyone anything..you owe the job...thats why you wanted it isnt it?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Yeah I'm an overanalyzer Truck, at least that's what a head shrinker once told me. Nah brother, just keep the convo going. Like I said I hear what your saying, but isn't it more fun to keep throwing out opposites then just agreeing. To be honest with you, the job doesn't owe me $hit, and I don't owe the job $hit. I owe the people I serve. I'm here because I love it. Both fire and medical and I get to do it in one spot. I love the fact that I'm part of a service that you have to be selected for, not just "join." I rose to the challenge and did what I had to do to get here. I love that and respect all my brothers for that. Just like you, I've seen it all, both probie's and senior guys worried about their B job. I've had probies that walk into the academy thinking they know it, only to see them crush under pressure or that ah ha I didn't know that look. I guess I look at it from my Marine experience. I knew my role at every rank I held but we all Marines. The private that just walked in the door had something to offer as much as the Master Gunnery Sgt. You just knew their role and they knew theirs. I have a different ideal on building teamwork and trust. Doesn't make my way any more right then yours, or yours any better then mine. But, different view points are good, if someone doesn't respond to one, it allows them something that they may be able too. And just like the military as I've mentioned once, the generation gap is difficult, but only as much as you let it if you don't want to understand that generations, their thoughts, intelligence and ideals change. Its all there in history but the fire service tries to fight it like we are some cult. WW II era people looked at Viet Nam era people like they were nuts. I'm a product of the 80's as my political awareness and independance in personality and my kids will think I'm nuts just like I think some things I see are nuts. But I've accepted it and wanted to learn more about it and did so by reading, and listening to speakers on generation gaps and learning.

Every department has traditions both good and bad. I've heard and seen them both. "You can't do that, its a tradition..." is right up there with the phrase "watch this" before someone does something. I could list some traditions in my department, but then I would be classified as bashing and starting trouble. Any tradition that hampers a better service to our customers, our safety or to make operations better is a $hitty one, plain and simple. Those are the ones I'm referring too, and unfortunately I can't get into them for many wil know immediately what I'm referring too. I know what you meant, like I said its just wording I would not use, nor ever agree with. And like I said, without a little argument, this wouldn't be as fun.

Be safe brother.

[X615 0]

for whatever reason this generation is extremely arrogant, very full of themselves, incredibly selfish and self important and unable to show any respect. they also seem to have a quite perverted sense of entitlement just because they're here. if their parents had done their jobs properly and parented instead of trying to be buddies & buying them off with videogames & mp3 players to make up for the guilt of not spending time with them & raising them to be proper polite respectful adults maybe we wouldn't have to waste our time "undoing" all their bad habits & reeducating into what's expected of them & what we're not going to tolerate. and unfortunately there are some kids that as so obnoxious, arrogant & basically deep-seated a$$holes that'll never change & those are the few you need to get rid of quickly because they poison the whole firehouse. and to the parents, if your keeping up with the jones lifestyle & working night & day neglecting your parental responsibilities then DON'T HAVE THEM TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!!!!!!!! baby sitters & day care are not going to raise your kids to be normal, well adjusted, functional, pleasant to be around kids. sorry to rant. guess i'm just another getting to be an old timer sick of having to breakdown & reeducate other people's children because they were too busy or just couldn't be bothered. to answer the original question. of course they've changed because they've raised themselves, are not held to any standards, get whatever they want and there's no consequences for their actions. to the spawners: thanks for dumping your crappy kids on us so we have to do what you should have done in the first place. you wanna be a dad then DO YOUR DAMN JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thank you & good day

[firemoose827 324]

and yes...probies, must respect, learn and appreciate senior men, and in return, senior men should absolutely teach the probies.  i agree with that, because that was kinda part of my point.  probies should want to learn and understand they NEED to learn more (which is the reason why i mentioned the fact that i noticed so many probies latly who swear they know everything there is), and senior men should also know their own role of educating and helping them adapt to job. 

i dont  entirely agree though with the statement that probies are sometimes better trained .  i'd have to read that article and try to understand what you mean exactly.  besides, classes are absolutely great and you of course learn a good basis...but  its in experience, that you truly learn the job.

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Truckie419, I agree with you. I may not be a paid ff, but I have 17 years in the service and I was brought up to always, ALWAYS respect my elders. In Northport FD we were supposed to stand and salute when the chief entered the room. Probies KNEW what was expected of themselves and they did it out of respect. One opinion was that training today is better than before and offers probies the right to have that "swager" around the fire station? Training is only the first step of many to becoming a good ff. Next you need experience. You need to fight fire with the senior guys and learn from them and their experiences or else that training is worth @#%! There are far too many self taught ff's out there and it scares me. Especially when these self taught wonders start disrepecting the senior people. Seniority is one tradition that should never be forgotten and we should remind todays probies of the importance of it. It's good for the morale and image of the dept and builds better relationships between ff's and officers. Learning and the desire for knowledge are becoming lost in the fire service, today people think you need one class and you know everything. Learning should be a continuous thing from class, to dept drills, to the senior ff telling of his/her experiences. Sorry for carrying on but this is a sensitive subject for me too.

I wish I was in your dept truckie419!!!

[ex-commish 490]

This is an interesting topic as I am not happy with some, not all, but some of the latest generation I am experiencing both as a chief and instructor. When I first became a junior firefighter in 1980 I was told I am here for 3 reasons....

1. Keep my mouth shut

2. Do as I am told

3. Learn

Period!!!

Now today some would say it is a bit harsh but back than respect, team work and proving that you can do the job by doing it was how you were accepted. I see alot of young kids today that think they know it all or kids joining because the community service looks good on college applications. The committment to the department and to the public is lost. The "what's in it for me" is the norm as opposed to " what can I do for you". I remeber my first fire when I was 18 and out of the junior corp I was assisting on a handline in a structure, took a beating but when it was over I was told "good job" and at that point I felt like I belong to something worthwhile. Today pride is a word some of these kids or even older probies don't seem to value. They think pride is wearing that " I fight what you fear t-shirt" or " how much can I milk this organization for?"

Now, there are some probies who are great, respectful, want to learn and prove themselves and they are usually the quiet ones and are always asking questions as opposed to telling you how to do it and I hope thier ranks grow and thier attitudes pass on to the others.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Guest]

Chief, those same instructions are still given out...they're not harsh, they're the best advice. Probie's in my department(or at least my house) hear the same thing coming in the door: "shut your f*@!#'n mouth and open your ears"...its the best way to learn, and the best way to give senior men the respect they deserve...

[Guest]

This is an interesting topic as I am not happy with some, not all, but some of the latest generation I am experiencing both as a chief and instructor. When I first became a junior firefighter in 1980 I was told I am here for 3 reasons....

1. Keep my mouth shut

2. Do as I am told

3. Learn

Period!!!

Now today some would say it is a bit harsh but back than respect, team work and proving that you can do the job by doing it was how you were accepted. I see alot of young kids today that think they know it all or kids joining because the community service looks good on college applications. The committment to the department and to the public is lost. The "what's in it for me" is the norm as opposed to " what can I do for you".  I remeber my first fire when I was 18 and out of the junior corp I was assisting on a handline in a structure, took a beating but when it was over I was told "good job" and at that point I felt like I belong to something worthwhile. Today pride is a word some of these kids or even older probies don't seem to value. They think pride is wearing that " I fight what you fear t-shirt" or " how much can I milk this organization for?"

Now, there are some probies who are great, respectful, want to learn and prove themselves and they are usually the quiet ones and are always asking questions as opposed to telling you how to do it and I hope thier ranks grow and thier attitudes pass on to the others.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

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BRAVO, Chief! You hit the nail right on the head. There seems to be no PRIDE amongst many of the new Probies. The Fire Service today is nothing more than a Job to many of them. Many of these new recruits can tell you more about 207A Benefits and Supplemental Health Insurance than their Job of Firefighting! Oh, and let's not forget what happened on the last episode of Jerry Springer! For those Probies who don't fall into this category and continue to show initiative and a desire to learn, keep up the Good Work! Maybe you can influence some of those less desirables with your great Work Ethics? Oh, and by the way, try to keep your mouth shut and your ears open at least until you reach Top Grade. You can learn a wealth of information from your Senior Men if there are any still on your Job!

[Guest]

first off, i have to say that i'm am very happy to see this topic continue to prosper!

i am really enjoying everyone'e viewpoints on this very important, and sometime very sensitive issue!

als...again, we meet head on, lol! thanks for your thoughts, and as i am sure you respect mine, i respect yours...i guess the truth to this matter is simply we have different thoughts on this. and thats ok, because it does make it more fun. if you and i agreed with everything, this topic prob. would've died way back on the first page, haha! but thats that, we just view in 2 very diff. points, and i hope more people will jump in on this way and continue sharing what they believe. its seems to be a never-ending battle between tradition and "modernization" (only word i could think of). you dont have to be a firefighter from back in the 50's to still believe and follow in tradition. its a matter of how YOU were brought up in the fire service, whether you chose to adapt the traditional lifestyle, or if it was passed down onto you from family. OR you might choose a diff. route, more modern and something i cant comment too well on. you have to turn to als for that one, ha!

by the way...thanks for the very kind words jones

take care and continue to be safe...all of you!