Have Probies Changed Over The Years?

[Guest]

is it just me, or has probies over the past couple of years have really changed. i mean, i see probies in houses acting as if they all have almost 20 years on the job, and walking around leaving all the work for senior guys!!! i'm def. not sayings it everywhere, but i def. have noticed this alot, and in many houses, and i find it disgraceful....what do you guys think?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I don't find it disgraceful at all, but a sign of the times that soceity and its members change much faster then the fire service mentality. I sat in a excellent lecture that discussed the changes from the "baby boomers" to the "generation x' ers" to what is called the "netsters" today. This is a management challenge. "Leaving work for the senior guys." I've never believed in this thought process anyway. Working together builds esprit de corps and good working relationships. Seniority to me means you don't wash dishes, get served dinner first and get good vacations picks. You want to get out of the grunt work, get promoted, then you can worry about taking care of your management functions that must be done.

Perhaps they walk with a little more swagger because studies have proven that every generation tends to be smarter then the rest. Advances in training programs, the way they are delivered as well as the way education in elementary and secondary schools they have attended has changed dramatically. Much of what your discussing is also occurring in other emergency services and the military itself. One of the biggest challenges the military faced in the 80's and 90's is an influx of enlisted personnel better educated then the senior enlisted ranks which they served under.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I agree...dont get me wrong im a probie by all accounts, but there are certain people that i can think of that act this way. One of them we call 2 weeks - he was in 2 weeks and acted like he was king. I hate when I see them being disrepectful, not following orders or being just plain stupid. I take up there slack and try and "pick up" after them.

[Guest]

I agree...dont get me wrong im a probie by all accounts, but there are certain people that i can think of that act this way. One of them we call 2 weeks - he was in 2 weeks and acted like he was king. I hate when I see them being disrepectful, not following orders or being just plain stupid. I take up there slack and try and "pick up" after them.

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als...i am also in the military, and i dont see it nearly half as much as i do in the emergency services. i respect and understand what you think, beleive me...i just dont see that. seniority is much more than just not doing dishes, or getting to eat first...but its part of the tradition and honor of firefighting. its exactly what it means, seniority! and my discussion was that probies, not all, but alot that i noticed latly have absolutely NO respect! i have seen men with 20 years +, sweep and mop floors, while boys with less than 1 year sit back, goof off, talk about the job as if they've seen it all, and just relax, while watching senior men do that "grunt work". its all part of the job, and respect toward any senior man is due. just as i would do for men with more time, knowledge and experience. thats seniority. respect for elders in time and grade, and soakin up what you can while you can, so that one day, the probie themselves can do the same. times might have changed, but taht doesnt mean that the job should too. thats tradition. forgive me if i sound a little "ticked" haha, but its just something that i do find disgraceful. thanks ems for understanding, and congrats on doing what you have to do! thats awesome to see that you are an exception!it'll pay off in the end

[x635 4,066]

I don't think that this opinion applies to all probies, as some departments will see next week.

I absolutely agree that the senior man should be respected, taken care of, and also, learned from. In turn, the senior man should take the time to teach the probies from his experiences as well.

As for the statement that the newest generation is always more educated then the previous, that is true....but experience is a great educator as well. Additionally, Probies nowadays recieve more training on average then their predeccesor....though the men on the job may have more training and experience, the probie may have picked up something-like Metro North trains-that a senior man might not have been exposed to.

There is a great article in last month's Fire Engineering called "The Rookies Guide To Survival"....defintely a must-read, and some words to live by.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Truck I respect what your saying also and I do understand. But there is one thing that if you read many of my posts, I'm not a traditionalist in many ways. That's the nice thing about tradition, you can start a new one everyday. As a corporal in the Marine Corps, I would often grab a broom with my PFC's and Lance Corporal's. Again I understand what your saying, I just look at it differently.

[Guest]

Truck I respect what your saying also and I do understand.  But there is one thing that if you read many of my posts, I'm not a traditionalist in many ways.  That's the nice thing about tradition, you can start a new one everyday.  As a corporal in the Marine Corps, I would often grab a broom with my PFC's and Lance Corporal's.  Again I understand what your saying, I just look at it differently.

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yes, new traditions came be made, but old ones shouldnt be broken. otherwsie, whats the whole point of having traditions, if you continuosly change them? then there is almost no point. then it become a trend, not a tradition. either way, thanks for your opinion

semper fi als, what is/was your MOS?

[Guest]

and yes...probies, must respect, learn and appreciate senior men, and in return, senior men should absolutely teach the probies. i agree with that, because that was kinda part of my point. probies should want to learn and understand they NEED to learn more (which is the reason why i mentioned the fact that i noticed so many probies latly who swear they know everything there is), and senior men should also know their own role of educating and helping them adapt to job.

i dont entirely agree though with the statement that probies are sometimes better trained . i'd have to read that article and try to understand what you mean exactly. besides, classes are absolutely great and you of course learn a good basis...but its in experience, that you truly learn the job.

[x635 4,066]

 

i dont  entirely agree though with the statement that probies are sometimes better trained ..

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I'm not saying "probies are better trained", in that sense, then senior guys...who may have more classes and experinece that always will outweigh.

I am saying that maybe the probie has learned something in school that the senior guy was never exposed to, or during life, that is valuable. Although the probie should keep their mouth shut, just because a probie is a probie doesn't mean that the senior guy should automatically shut them out when their information can be more recent (for example, we had a chance in school to learn about Metro-North's newest M-7 trains in person) and could lead to a life being saved.

As I've said, experience is always a great and unreplicated eductator. Definetly read that article (August 2005), it is awesome and a must read for every probie!!

Here's a quote from the article:

Rookies are the last to kick back and the first to start work. A rookie should be the first one to get up and start working. New employees should have a youthful enthusiasm about every aspect of the job. They should be self-motivated and always look for something to do. There is always something that needs to be done. If you do this, you will find that work is contagious. Your coworkers will take pride in showing you how to do things, and they will feel good about the accomplishments you make. Also, since they have already earned their wings, they have also earned the right to stop working before you, or not work as hard as you. This is also a test to see if you will slack off or stop before you are finished.

Here's the full article (Registration Required)

http://fe.pennnet.com/articles/article_dis...DS=rookies&p=25

Edited December 13, 2005 by x635

[CPFD91206 0]

I absolutely agree that the senior man should be respected, taken care of, and also, learned from. In turn, the senior man should take the time to teach the probies from his experiences as well.

With the kids coming into the Fire Service today its a whole new breed! These are the kids mostly from the 80's where Mom was home all day to pick up after them and wait on them hand and foot. I think thats why when they get into the service they think the "older" guys will take care of them. If its your first day on the job or your first night at the fire company they should step up to the plate , shut their mouth and do what they're told ( oh yea don't come in empty handed either). A majority of the times the senior guys have a way of teaching the "probies". Important lessons that are learned are usually by introducing the probie to a situation where we know they will fail (safely)but yet THEN taking the time to explain WHY they failed ! This is what we hope they retain and never make the mistake again.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

MOS: 2531, Field Radio Operator 2ndary 2542 Data transmission specialist.

Also was a enlisted instructor for Communication Officers School and the Command and Control Systems School.

This is the way this forum is supposed to work, I love this topic.

Great points Truck. We're just on different sides of the spectrum.

In my honest opinion, todays probies are better trained. I know the probies today get more then what I did. I do have to disagree to a point with your statement that it is with experience you truly learn the job. It all starts with basic solid skill. You learn the job better and to be a better fire officer through experience. I want the smart firefighter with skill with me above all else. I want all my firefighters, probies and senior guys to want to learn more. In our business the way things change we need to learn things all over again or run the risk of injury or death because we didn't catch up on something in regard to building construction and so on.

Plus lets not forget, that sometimes, attitude reflects leadership.

[hudson144 150]

To the new guys,remember the old saying, the first impression is A lasting impression!!!!!!! a bad impression will follow you forever especially in the fire service. Its not all about firefighting,good luck n be safe.

[hudson144 150]

To the new guys,remember the old saying, the first impression is A lasting impression!!!!!!! a bad impression will follow you forever especially in the fire service. Its not all about firefighting,good luck n be safe.

[Guest]

MOS: 2531, Field Radio Operator 2ndary 2542 Data transmission specialist.

Also was a enlisted instructor for Communication Officers School and the Command and Control Systems School.

This is the way this forum is supposed to work, I love this topic.

Great points Truck.  We're just on different sides of the spectrum.

In my honest opinion, todays probies are better trained.  I know the probies today get more then what I did.  I do have to disagree to a point with your statement that it is with experience you truly learn the job.  It all starts with basic solid skill.  You learn the job better and to be a better fire officer through experience.  I want the smart firefighter with skill with me above all else.  I want all my firefighters, probies and senior guys to want to learn more.  In our business the way things change we need to learn things all over again or run the risk of injury or death because we didn't catch up on something in regard to building construction and so on. 

Plus lets not forget, that sometimes, attitude reflects leadership.

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thanks for the response als...i do not agree that probies today are better trained, but instead, trained differently. they might get some "new modern" information in the academy now, but that def. does not make them better trained, maybe better informed. how many times have you gone to a job and applied every single step from the book. sometimes, the book just goes out the window, and thats with anything, not just firefighting. as a fellow marine, i'm sure you can understand that. oh and by the way, MOS 0311, haha. i'm not entirely sure which departmetns you refer to, nor do i want to know (just so names dont go around of course), but i have never seen a department where the seniors arent informed and trained the same "new modern" information, such as MTA. if new probies who never have touched a fire before,( other than in a training simulator), have learend aobut it, i know senior guys are going to want to also learn about it themselves instead of putting their lives in the hands of a textbook and kid who passed a test, but never actually applied in real life. but dont get me wrong, in no way, shape or form am i at all implying that classes are garbage and probies dont know anything. they get the basic training they need to start, and thats extremely important, but the senior in their future companies are the men who fought some of the wrost fires, cut the worst accidents etc etc, and its them who is going to guide (or at least should be guiding) them and help them, and teach them the true nature. as my infantry instructors said, "its fun and all to be shooting blanks at dummies in a controlled environment where we tell whats going down, but when the dummies fire back and it becomes a 2 way fire range, its a whole different ball park."

[Guest]

I'm not saying "probies are better trained", in that sense, then senior guys...who may have more classes and experinece that always will outweigh.

I am saying that maybe the probie has learned something in school that the senior guy was never exposed to, or during life, that is valuable. Although the probie should keep their mouth shut, just because a probie is a probie doesn't mean that the senior guy should automatically shut them out when their information can be more recent (for example, we had a chance in school to learn about Metro-North's newest M-7 trains in person) and could lead to a life being saved.

As I've said, experience is always a great and unreplicated eductator.  Definetly read that article (August 2005), it is awesome and a must read for every probie!!

Here's a quote from the article:

Here's the full article (Registration Required)

http://fe.pennnet.com/articles/article_dis...DS=rookies&p=25

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i never said either that probies should be shut out at all. of course everyone in a fire house, has or as at least should have something to give back to each other. senior guys, while being respected and def. looked up upon for their knowledge and experience, should also take probies under their wings and guide them and help them with knowledge and through just adapting to the job,i understand that every now and then, a probie might have been informed of a updated version of something, but at no time should they act like they are better because of it, and i guess in essence, that is my argument. not that probies are "scum" and seniors are "gods", haha. so if thats the impression i gave i apoligize. you just dont go into any field as probie, boot, recruit, whatever and act like you own the place and started the business, and that is what i have seen from ALOT, not all, probies latly...and its disrespectful and a lil disturbing to those men who have been for there 10, 15, 20 years, and seen, experienced, and unfortnately lost a good share. in the end, you have to learn your place, and earn your way...thanks for the article 635, i'll check it out! appreciate the responses

[pcfd64 1]

I'm sure all will appreciate this one. In my Dept a couple of us put together a 'probie' class meant specifically to tell new members what is expected of them and impart some of the traditions that are important to us as a Dept and the fire service and as a prep/intro for FF1 training.

We were told after the first class that the new members thought that calling it a 'probie class' was demeaning to them!!!!!!

The class is now called the New Firefighter Orientation Class just so we don't offend those PROBIES!!!!

[Guest]

I'm sure all will appreciate this one. In my Dept a couple of us put together a 'probie' class meant specifically to tell new members what is expected of them and impart some of the traditions that are important to us as a Dept and the fire service and as a prep/intro for FF1 training.

We were told after the first class that the new members thought that calling it a 'probie class' was demeaning to them!!!!!!

The class is now called the New Firefighter Orientation Class just so we don't offend those PROBIES!!!!

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[/qu

thanks pcfd for that bit of info. i cant believe that. thats what i mean

[Irons 0]

I'm sure all will appreciate this one. In my Dept a couple of us put together a 'probie' class meant specifically to tell new members what is expected of them and impart some of the traditions that are important to us as a Dept and the fire service and as a prep/intro for FF1 training.

We were told after the first class that the new members thought that calling it a 'probie class' was demeaning to them!!!!!!

The class is now called the New Firefighter Orientation Class just so we don't offend those PROBIES!!!!

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[/qu

thanks pcfd for that bit of info. i cant believe that. thats what i mean

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BROTHER TRUCKIE,

You bring up a lot of valid points and i agree with you brother. The whole attitude today in the fire service is changing. When i started out almost 20 years ago, I had a great deal of respect for my elders and i kept my mouth shut when i entered the door. i knew my place and I learned from those who stepped up and taught me how to be a firefighter, in the field and on the training ground. I found i learned the most from those who actually fought the most fires because they were teaching me from their experience and not from a Book.

Another thing i can be grateful for is the DISCIPLINE that was instilled in me in my early years in the Fire service. This valuable tool is so needed in the early stages of a firefighters development otherwise a lack of understanding of how we truly operate will develop.

I also truly feel that is up to the senior men to mold and develop their Proby. Years on the job or in the fire service mean nothing if those years were spent being useless. Hopefully the senior mans years were filled with fire duty, plenty of experience, and a knowledge of the real traditions of the fire service.

People with little time and no experience should should keep their mouths closed and their eyes and ears open... but then again this might be too harsh in todays day and age... MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

[Guest]

I have two feelings on this matter there is not doubt that senior men deserve respect and that probies need to pay their dues and all the things that come with it and all the while experience is worth a ton and yes often the text book goes out the window. But I tent to see several other factors.

Those of you who are talking about a pre FFI class I am assuming those are with regards to volunteer FF's? Which either way I think the pre training before sending any one to fire school is defiantly that much more of a help when they get there.

I defiantly think that on the volunteer end of the service there is a severe disregard for the respect of senior men and officers there is little or no instilling of firefighting traditions in the FFI classes offered to volunteers. And I feel that their needs to be more both at class and in every fire dept.

How ever I think this post is more about Career FF's who go through 14 weeks at the academy and are taught the levels of due respect and hands on and text book skills to prepare them to go back to their FD's where they will be turned into FF's.. lets face it the academy makes civilians into probationary FF's and the experience and knowledge the senior men and officers give you once you get back to you department or company is what will turn you into a Firefighter.

there is defiantly no substitute for experience but lets also face ALS's point and X635's probies learn the most modern and up to date ways of doing things as well as new tools and a lot has changed about the job in the post 9/11/01 years let alone the last 10 or 20. I know many vollie and career depts. don’t bring their members who have been on the job 20 or 25 years up to the new standards many never even went to the academy and well the best example is extrication how different is it today cars are different safety systems and airbags are different, various types of fuels such as propane or electric, how many senior men have be retrained so that they are up to date with the new methods taught at the academy? there is no way a FF who has a lot of time on the job in a dept that doesn’t do very much rope work is going to remember z rigs or 3 to 1 systems and so on many may not have even taken rescue tech basic or other rope classes during their times. so maybe the new probie may better remember how to set up the system having just done it in the academy... the fire service is every changing and new ways of doing things will be a way of life accept them and learn from each other... probies respect you senior men and follow the article x635 mentioned.. And senior men let you probies show you what they were taught and together you man both learn form one another.

the bottom line here is respect one another follow traditions but don’t think that’s all that matters things change and methods do to so keep going to classes and drilling that’s the only way you retain what you were taught and maybe you will learn new ways form the classes you may take during your career.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What traditions should be instilled into a firefighter 1 course and how? I'm interested to know. I do talk about some traditions, like this is a profession and you represent it on and off the job, in and out of the firehouse. I also knock old traditions which were ludicrous and dangerous. I see no reason for or time for instilling whatever traditions some can think of. I instill pride in ones self, the profession and what they can mean to it, or the flip side what they can do with it if they act, dress or talk like an a$$.

[Guest]

What traditions should be instilled into a firefighter 1 course and how? I'm interested to know.  I do talk about some traditions, like this is a profession and you represent it on and off the job, in and out of the firehouse.  I also knock old traditions which were ludicrous and dangerous.  I see no reason for or time for instilling whatever traditions some can think of. I instill pride in ones self, the profession and what they can mean to it, or the flip side what they can do with it if they act, dress or talk like an a$$.

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as ALS is very well aware of, i am a pure tradiontionalist and for good reasons. but like als, i am also wondering what you mean by instilling traditions in FF1 courses. and unlike als, i am not knocking this idea...i just dont want to understand better what you mean by doing so? what ideas do you have?

als.. i understand some traditions might be dangerous such as wearing rubber coats w/o bunker pants...but to me thats not necessarily a tradition, just a change in NFPA and OSHA requirements for safety reasons. but as i'm sure you know, there are so many traditions in the fire department that have been there for decades! and to this day, those tradtions dont damage the fire services image, but i feel it in fact gives us a more pride-fulfilling image.

as you and i have come to understand about each other, we simply just dont agree on the tradition aspect. haha

[Guest]

BROTHER TRUCKIE,

You bring up a lot of valid points and i agree with you brother.  The whole attitude today in the fire service is changing.  When i started out almost 20 years ago, I had a great deal of respect for my elders and i kept my mouth shut when i entered the door. i knew my place and  I learned from those who stepped up and taught me how to be  a firefighter, in the field and on the training ground.  I found i learned the most from those who actually fought the most fires because they were teaching me from their experience and not from a Book.

Another thing i can be grateful for is the DISCIPLINE that was instilled in me in my early years in the Fire service.  This valuable tool is so needed in the early stages of a firefighters development otherwise a lack of understanding of how we truly operate will develop.

I also truly feel that is up to the senior men to mold and develop their Proby.  Years on the job or in the fire service mean nothing if those years were spent being useless.  Hopefully the senior mans years were filled with fire duty, plenty of experience, and a knowledge of the real traditions of the fire service.

People with little time and no experience should should keep their mouths closed and their eyes and ears open... but then again this might be too harsh in todays day and age... MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

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i appreciate your thoughts and understanding irons...merry christmas to you as well brother

[Guest]

What traditions should be instilled into a firefighter 1 course and how? I'm interested to know.  I do talk about some traditions, like this is a profession and you represent it on and off the job, in and out of the firehouse.  I also knock old traditions which were ludicrous and dangerous.  I see no reason for or time for instilling whatever traditions some can think of. I instill pride in ones self, the profession and what they can mean to it, or the flip side what they can do with it if they act, dress or talk like an a$$.

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Well ALS and Truckie I am glad it caught your attention and with regards to traditions such as the boots and no bunker pants not what I meant. but lets face it I find on the career side that as a whole there is more respect for the job and the brothers and most are model FF's who remember that both on and off duty your still a FF. my point of the traditions isn’t so much meant toward the career side because every FF knows that the senior man or men are supposed to take the probie under their wing and guide them on the road to their career, we also know the probie should be doing all the little B*tch work and paying his dues as all his brothers have before him. He should keep quiet and listen and learn, how ever if he has a question or can relate something from his training he should voice it maybe the senior man can learn from the probie.

My point with the traditions is more aimed at the Volunteer FFI classes I think that while we all know 78 hours isn't enough training as it is to build an interior FF but that’s what it is now, the program could use some more discipline at least with some instructors. Some of the students needs to under stand that sweat shirt or t-shirt with the whateverFD on it draws attention and when you screw up it has an impact on the other brothers. How your dress and present you’re self also even when it’s reporting to the training center or grounds I can’t tell you how many people don’t dress appropriate for these classes and it’s not every one. also many a times your get these new young kids who show up at department meetings and say we should do this and this and that and treat this like its a game its not... you should keep your mouth shut and learn how your dept works learn how other depts do things put in some time respect those with more time on and learn pay your dues before you run your mouth.

That’s what I mean guys it may not be the case every where but I have seen it have your guys?

Also I am interested to hear how you both feel about my comments in the last post I made about the probie/senior men conversation?

[Guest]

well engine..unless i misunderstand everything just wrote, i think you and i are pretty on the same page with most issues. we seems to both agree about the role of a probie and how and what it should be, as well as the role of the senior men. as far as talking about volunteer/paid, i was referring to both, becuase whether or not you receive a pay check in the mail, your still a firefighter, therefore tradition is the same everywhere as long as its a fire department. and of course, i know how each company also might instill their own lil tradidtions here and there, as whole, the traditions of the fire department are usually specific. i also entirely agree with your statemtns on how probies, especially in classes, (mainly FF1 considering you have a designated dress in the academy) respresent themselves by their attire, attitude, comments etc. and like you, i also cant stand to see probies come in and treat it like a game, becuase its the complete opposite. but again, whether its paid or volunteer, this concept applies, cause i have seen in both, obviously moreso in volunteer companies, but i will not at all say that its never seen in a paid company becuase it very well is in some places.

well, in a nutshell engine, its seems that you and i agree on this matter all the way...and if there is something i misunderstand, please make me aware so i can give you a better response. appreciate your side!

and just to let you know engine, my comments about the rubber coats or bunkers pants were referred to you or your statement at all. that was simply an example a tradition which makes sense to change on account of safety hazards.

[Guest]

Deffinatly agree with you brother truckie, i mean no disrespect to either career or volunteer, been on both sides i totally agree with you and hopefully every one else does to i guess lets see what ALS and the Fellow brothers have to say

both line is show respect to the job

respect the senior men.

and learn form each other.

[Larryalb 0]

A little more infomation that was not covered or incorrectly covered. I was teaching proby school in the early 80's, part of what I taught was Metro north safety etc. with their help. I also taught disappline which is lacking, not only in the fire service but in life itself. When I was in the Navy if you didn't do what you were told you went to the brig. You didn't have the choice to quit or question the order you learned to do it when you were told and maybe question it later. I don't want to sound like a braggard, but you don't have the fires anymore, so most of what is being taught is from the book, because the expeirence is not there from some of the senior men either. This was already covered, but the probies are being taught more information now because the commincation level is much better. There are too many people talk the talk, but have not walked the walk. To touch on the senior men on the job now they need to be kept informed of the new technique's and that is part of what the 129 hours of in-service training is supposed to do. that is to keep them up todate with what the probies should be learning in the academy. The senoirity system should maintained and if you haven't been there done that keep your mouth shut. I think the problem is not just the fire service but the politcly correct croud. The smaller jobs may have a prolem keeping up with the 129 hours, but that is their jobs responsiblity. The bigger jobs do the in-service training and that should keep them up to date. Most of what a firefighter job now, is not fighting fires, but all the other things, house work, inspections etc. if fire duty is 3% thats alot. The senority process needs to be kept up, but as someone said earlier that does not give the senoir man a right to slack off either. The biggest problem I have seen is the officers are afraid to be an officer, that they want to be everybody's friend. I have said enough and more than I planned on.

Have a nice day

[Guest]

Probie School has been around since the late 70's- Yonkers has had classes, and it has been state law since around 1984( don't hold me to exact date) where the county and the state has had probie schools.

For most of the new guys who think dumping the garbage is below them get a grip and dump the pail. The problem with probies of today is a good number never had a JOB before , not even a paper route. Mommy did every thing for them, maybe mom could come into work and make your bed. oh yea don't worry you can have THANKSGIVING AND CHRITSMAS OFF THIS YEAR. The senior man had it last year. Everything you get in life you earn it. So just wait your turn and earn it.

Good luck!!!!!

[Irons 0]

LARRY            WE NEED MORE OF YOU ON THIS BOARD.  ITS REFRESHING TO SEE SOME OF THE OLD SALTY GUYS ARE STILL OUT THERE...MERRY CHRISTMAS BROTHER and thank you for shedding light to so many that need it!

[firecapt32 282]

Dont worry about larry by this time next month he will be with the other old people-----in flordia!!!! sorry larry had to get that shot in cause in jelouse!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Apparantly some of you have never talked to my students about what I discuss in class in regard to professionalism. Much of what you said that should be in a class also I do discuss. Like dress and conduct on and off of scenes.

There is discipline in the navy?

Old and salty? lol.

I have major issues with the keep your mouth shut mentality. People come from different walks of life. Maybe their way is better whether its day 1 on the job or the next to last. I scoff at the notion of the reduced number of fires. I'm not trying to be a bragger either but fire prevention, codes improvements and technology have assisted with that. We interact with the community probably twice as much as 20 years ago. My opinon lead, follow or get the f%ck out of the way. We can say what we want about learning from the book, but no secret that firefighter deaths have declined as education materials and curriculums have gotten better.