Why Don't Career Firefighters Drill With Volunteer

[calhobs 110]

not to start a big career vs vollie arguemnt but, why dont vollies drill with career? I have never heard of any drills like this before. Is there a reason why the vollies and career depts dont drill with each other?

[Guest]

The large career Depts in WC are Mount Vernon, New Rochelle and Yonkers. They are surrounded by combo Deps. such as Pelham and Pelham Manor and all vollie units. There are mutual-aid agreements signed by the career municipalities with the other depts.

However, if M/A is requested by a career Dept, my vollies in a combo Dept. are not permitted to assist and, we are not paged (the career FFs go). So since, in reality, we will never be on the fireground together no need is seen to train together.

Maybe it also has to to with Union rules. It is frustrating on many levels since all Depts have their own different internal SOPs even when trying to set up combo-vollie drills.....

Anyway, this is how it appears to me, I'm sure some of you have a better knowledge of the situation.

[Guest]

The large career Depts in WC are Mount Vernon, New Rochelle and Yonkers. They are surrounded by combo Deps. such as Pelham and Pelham Manor and all vollie units. There are mutual-aid agreements signed by the career municipalities with the other depts.

However, if M/A is requested by a career Dept, my vollies in a combo Dept. are not permitted to assist and, we  are not paged (the career FFs go). So since, in reality, we will never be on the fireground together no need is seen to train together.

Maybe it also has to to with Union rules. It is frustrating on many levels since all Depts have their own different internal SOPs even when trying to set up combo-vollie drills.....

Anyway, this is how it appears to me, I'm sure some of you have a better knowledge of the situation.

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SO WAIT HOSS explain you are in a department that PAGES?? out their PAID staff to come in and man a rig for an out of town response ??????Just when you thought you have heard it all.................

[Guest Truckie 1075]

SO WAIT HOSS explain  you are in a department that PAGES?? out their PAID staff to come in and man a rig for an out of town response ??????Just when you thought you have heard it all.................

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What he means is the on dudy carrer staff responds from the firehouse to the M/A call, and the vollys aren't paged to respond. Hey, someone has to cover your own town, right? everyone likes to forget that. It's the moth to candle effect. everyone wants to go to the flame, but you have to cover your own turf first. so it's not all bad.

[Remember585 815]

Why ask the question that's asked.

I ask this of everyone...

How many volunteer Departments train with other volunteer ones?

How many volunteer FD's with multiple companies actually train within? IE Engine and Ladder company drills....

How can most career FD's train with the volunteer FD's? For the most part, weekday training is out for volunteers, and most career FD's have to keep up with their required NYS training during the day right? Not to mention their code enforcement and other responsibilities.

[calhobs 110]

Let me clear this up right now.This is not to start a battle, or question other departments training procdures. I was just curious why we dont train at drills with each other. Such as the Drill last year at shaft 18 i think its called from my understanding there were no career depts there I could be wrong, and the drill at yonkers race track last week there were no vollies there. Is it a labour issue or is it an insurence issue, or is it that we just dont like each other so you cant come to my party issue.

Myself would like to attend some of those drills with other departments but was wondering why vollies and careers do not invite each other to big drills like those mentioned above.

[Guest]

The Yonkers Raceway drill consisted of Squads 1,2,3,4 and 5. Those Squads are assigned to Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, Eastchester/Scarsdale, and the Greenburghs(Greenville,Hartsdale,Fairview and White Plains) These departments are fully staffed and can respond at a moments notice. One would have to assume that is why there were no volunteer departments involved in this multi agency drill. If no volunteer departments have a squad assigned to them, then there would be no reason to be involved. These 5 squads are involved in all types of fire-rescue scenerios ie:high angle rescue, structural collapse, hazmat and so on. This was supposed to be a 24 hour drill but somehow someone put the kabosh on that.

[E64PCFD2044 1]

Why ask the question that's asked.

I ask this of everyone...

How many volunteer Departments train with other volunteer ones?

How many volunteer FD's with multiple companies actually train within?  IE Engine and Ladder company drills....

How can most career FD's train with the volunteer FD's?  For the most part, weekday training is out for volunteers, and most career FD's have to keep up with their required NYS training during the day right?  Not to mention their code enforcement and other responsibilities.

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A few months ago, Port Chester and Purchase had a drill together at SUNY to make sure all of our new thread adapters were correct and we practiced water supply from a PC engine to TL53. And when the new "Waterfront" development opened, we had a full department drill for car fires in the parking garage and had walk-throughs of each business there. Weekly drills, training, and training center visits are different for every company.

[Guest]

Truckie Buff, thanks for clarifying my statement . That was exactly what I meant.

[HFD23 37]

correct me if i am wrong but wasnt that yonkers race way drill dealing with USAR and indepth tech rescue?

how many volunteer depts even have TECH teams or enuff firefighters that are trained to a level that these carreer Firefighters that took part in these drill are?

i think even beyond the different scheduals and availablities of vollies and career FF"s the underlying element is the difference in the level of training and i am in no way saying that volunteer FF's are not good FF"S but bottom like is they haven't been trough the academy and then any other specialized classes the CAreer FF"s have been through.... whats the bottom line the difference in training

so keep training and learning it may save your life

Edited December 7, 2005 by HFD211

[Guest BrotherFF]

When was the last time a volunteer department invited a paid department to their drill?

Whether anybody likes it or not, the two "sides" are on completly different levels.

A big factor safety issue. As a paid guy, my training...and the standards I'm held to such as physical fitness, are completly different then those of a volunteer. The things I HAVE to do are options for volunteers. If I called for Yonkers Rescue 1, I know what I'm getting in terms of the staff training, experience and in the timeframe I am getting them in, not to mention they will be in a uniform. Can the same be said for a vollie rescue?

Now, you can throw the "paid guys hate vollies" comments around, but how about not getting all defensive and looking at, and admitting, there are some truths to the concerns paid guys present....paid guys who are informed citizens who live in the communities you protect in some cases.

To tell you the truth, I'd much rather drill with my peers. Yes, vollies are firefighters too, but until they are held to the same standards as I am, then how can we drill together???

Edited December 7, 2005 by BrotherFF

[firebuff860 54]

Brother FF,

I am a volunteer in a combo dept, I would be interested to know what you mean by physical fitness standard. Is there something in NYS about fitness, or is it a local standard? I know about the 100 hours of annual training, but I know our career staff is held to no fitness standards. We have been trying to get something passed on the local level for volunteers and career staff, but the politicians do not seem interested.

Thanks

[Guest]

Brother FF has a valid point. I, as a volly, make a concerted effort to keep myself in the physical condition required to do the job on the fireground. BUT, no one is making me do it. In many agencies, if you don't have the self-discipline to follow a fitness program there are no consequences, period.

[ex-commish 490]

When was the last time a volunteer department invited a paid department to their drill?

To tell you the truth, I'd much rather drill with my peers. Yes, vollies are firefighters too, but until they are held to the same standards as I am, then how can we drill together???

I usually do not get involved in the paid verses volunteer issue nor do I intend to do so now. Show me perfection anywhere. Guaranteed you will be searching forever. To answer your first question Brother FF we did invite career departments to our drills on occasion in fact Yonkers Hazmat was invited to a spill simulation we did in Hawthorne about 10 years ago along with the county haz-mat team. They came and worked with us and it went well. We have had other training invovling career firefighters as well. Never a problem. I will drill or train with anyone, especially someone who is willing to teach me something so to answer your second question as to how can we drill together the answer is simple....just do it. learn by it and also share what you know

Andy Mancusi

Hawthorne FD

[BFD1054 1,552]

Chief...I couldn'd have said it better myself, amen brother!

Just because most vollies do not have the same amount of training as career ff's, doesn't mean we can't train together! Thats all the more reason to train! Its attitude like that that keeps us from bettering ourselves. If you feel that vollies and career guys shouldn't waste their time training together because they don't have the same training level, then shame on you. BrotherFF, don't get me wrong, you make alot of valid point, as usual. However, vollies could learn alot from career guys, therefore training together is a + in my book. And if there are career guys that are soo worried about fire protection in their hometowns, why not do something about it (whether it be volunteer themselves, ofter to help them train or lobby for career staffing)? Again, BrotherFF, don't take my post personally, just adding my 2 cents. As i said, you have alot of valid and useful information that you bring to this board.

On a personal note, i have trained several times with career guys/depts. My dept. has trained with Peekskill (combo), Mohegan (combo) and the Montrose VAFD (fully career). I would love to train with them on a more regular basis as well. I have always encountered good things when the two "sides" get together to reach the same goal - training!

Are there issues with the differences in training levels for career vs. vollie - hell yes, we know that!

Instead of bickering, i just wish the NYS fire service could be more unified for both "sides." I would love to be able to have the same training background as a career firefighter, hands down!

This goes for everyone - train as much and as hard as you can because your life DOES depend on it! When in a training session, keep your ears & eyes open, listen to what experienced people have to say and learn from them!

Most importantly , stay safe!

[JohnnyOV 2]

When was the last time a volunteer department invited a paid department to their drill?

Whether anybody likes it or not, the two "sides" are on completly different levels.

A big factor safety issue. As a paid guy, my training...and the standards I'm held to such as physical fitness, are completly different then those of a volunteer.  The things I HAVE to do are options for volunteers.  If I called for Yonkers Rescue 1, I know what I'm getting in terms of the staff  training, experience and in the timeframe I am getting them in, not to mention they will be in a uniform.  Can the same be said for a vollie rescue?

Now, you can throw the "paid guys hate vollies" comments around, but how about not getting all defensive and looking at, and admitting, there are some truths to the concerns paid guys present....paid guys who are informed citizens who live in the communities you protect in some cases.

To tell you the truth, I'd much rather drill with my peers.  Yes, vollies are firefighters too, but until they are held to the same standards as I am, then  how can we drill together???

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My combo dept hold the same standards for its volunteers and paid guys. We train and drill together and our paid guys arent just drivers. I dont see why there has to be anger between everyone. WE'RE BROTHERS!

Edited December 7, 2005 by EMSJunkie712

[NJFDPLFC5 0]

My combo dept hold the same standards for its volunteers and paid guys. We train and drill together and our paid guys arent just drivers. I dont see why there has to be anger between everyone. WE'RE BROTHERS!

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Here in New Jersey all firefighters are held to the same standard .The academy where I work the careers classes are taught by volunteers. I think FF shhould be trained as one standered not by a pay check . Also before people yell at me I am a paid FF and volunteer.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I never knew they dindn't

[Guest]

I recently took a FAST class at camp smith, one of the instructors was a career deputy chief in the Monticello FD. Monticello is a combo dept. with I believe about 5 or 6 career personnel on staff, of course career FF's have to do 100 hours of i/s training a year, he also told me that his vollys are invited to attend that training. Figured that was pretty interesting.

[bob803 1]

You are only speaking for yourself. How many times do you see a senior person (not time on the job) who does not look physically fit at all.

[dc2t 80]

The drill at shaft 18 was attended by White Plains and Greenburgh Squads who worked in conjuntion with the local depts. NO PROBLEMS at all. :angry:

[Guest]

Hi bob803, if you were replying to my post the answer is a frustrating one: TOO OFTEN.......