NYS Vol FFs need more training

[Guest]

Article published Dec 6, 2005

ITHACA JOURNAL

Firefighter deaths up as training funds disputed

By JAY GALLAGHER

Gannett News Service

ALBANY — Despite assurances from state officials that enough money is being spent on training for volunteer firefighters, fire officials Monday blamed recruitment problems — and a spike in deaths — on a lack of training.

“New York has the distinction in leading the nation in line-of-duty deaths,†James Byrnes, the state fire administrator, told lawmakers Monday. He said more on-line training might be a potential cure.

Sixteen firefighters in the state have died so far this year while on duty, compared to only six in all of 2004 and another half-dozen in 2003, according to state records. Byrnes said the long-term average has been about 12, excluding the huge total in 2001 at the World Trade Center.

Maybe the easiest way to cut down on the deaths would be to require more physical-fitness training, said Byrnes and Thomas LaBelle, executive director of the state Fire Chiefs Association.

Byrnes said that he would favor requiring firefighters to have more training, but LaBelle and other fire officials said the problem is that not enough classes are available, even though the state is spending about $1 million this year to pay for them.

“We have five instructors, but we need more,†said David Jacobowitz, who was chief of the Whitesboro, Oneida County, department for 20 years. “The courses would be filled if we could offer them.â€

But Byrnes said the $1 million the state is spending is “adequate.â€

“There's a disconnect somewhere,†said Assemblyman David Koon, D-Perinton, Monroe County, a member of the Local Government Committee.

“Clearly the Department of State and the fire services see the situation differently,†said committee chairman Robert Sweeney, D-Suffolk County. He said lawmakers have to find out whether the state is spending enough money on training.

The fire officials also said the lack of available training is hurting their efforts to reverse a long decline in volunteers.

Since 1999, the number of volunteer firefighters in the state has dropped from about 135,000 to 100,000, according to the Firemen's Association. In the last decade, the number of volunteer emergency-medical technicians has plummeted from 70,000 to about 40,000.

Of the 1,824 municipal fire departments in the state, 95 percent are all volunteer. They range in size from the more than 11,000-member New York City Fire Department to tiny forces in rural areas.

Koon said departments in his area are focusing on trying to get high-school students interested. But he said long waits for training discourages them.

“If we have to wait six months or a year, we're going to lose them,†he said.

A panel that is looking into the possibility of taxpayer-provided health insurance as a way to lure more people into volunteering. They are due to issue a report before the end of the year.

[Porsha911gt3 8]

I was just reading this on my local newspapers website. I was just thinking, correct me if I am wrong but for the salary of one career firefighter per year isnt it possible to train numerous volunteers to do the same job for free. I personally think the state is only making it worse for down the road when departments don't have enough properly train volunteers and they have to turn to a paid staff. If the state increased funding just a little more for volunteer training then that could save many departments money in the long run.

[jd783 64]

Since 1999, the number of volunteer firefighters in the state has dropped from about 135,000 to 100,000, according to the Firemen's Association. In the last decade, the number of volunteer emergency-medical technicians has plummeted from 70,000 to about 40,000.

Why train them in 24years they will be gone

[JohnnyOV 2]

Honestly we do need more training. Our FF I is only 78 hours. If you go to any other state, it is much longer then that. Florida's FF I is over 120 hours. NJ is similar to that. Our FF II class is 28 hours, NJ's is over to 50 hours.

In Illinois you have to be FF II qualifed to even enter a burning buliding...over 240 hours of training!

Obviously I think NY is lacking in our training!

[Porsha911gt3 8]

Why not train who you have properly? At least you'll have something for "24" more years

[Guest Truckie 1075]

Honestly we do need more training. Our FF I is only 78 hours. If you go to any other state, it is much longer then that. Florida's FF I is over 120 hours. NJ is similar to that. Our FF II class is 28 hours, NJ's is over to 50 hours.

In Illinois you have to be FF II qualifed to even enter a burning buliding...over 240 hours of training!

Obviously I think NY is lacking in our training!

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this is a good point, NY is way behind.. and it shows....

[Jybehofd 85]

Well its nice to see that we finaly have the Fire Fighter II training offered at the county. But now I am hearing that the Camp Smith training is going to close up!! I know in my department we are have about 4-6 guys waiting for the past 3-6 months for training. The big problem is there are not enough classes for them to get into. I think we had this problem before too in or about 2000 it was hard to get classes. Now it is happening again, what happened to all that homeland security money for 1st responer training? I know they have offered hazmat and trailer ops but we need the EMT or fire fighter 1st to train, can that money be used to train more FFs and EMTs?????

[bmfd231 3]

New York will always lag behind the other states when it comes to training Volunteers or Career FF because the monies earmarked for emergency services from the Federal Government never get much farther than the states general fund. The three stooges in Albany (Pataki, Silver and Bruno) take our money and spend it on parks, personal pork, parks, etc, anyplace except where it is really needed. Did I mention they love to create parks! Until we find a way to take back our state thru referendums to limit their powers and expand the peoples, this will not change.

[danb 10]

we need the EMT or fire fighter 1st to train

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I agree 100%. The countys need to offer more class's. In orange county, they offer Pump Operator/EVOC more than anything! Yeah thats important but I have been waiting since May for a Fast Team Class, or a Truck Co Ops, or Rescue Tech. I dont even think the county of orange is having any class's this month and i dont think they had any last month eather!

[firecapt32 282]

where do I begin on this subject-----the article is right the. volunteer service needs more training. The question is how do we get them trained? New York is basicly starting form the begining with firefighter one and firefighter two.

Do you realize that there are still fire departments in Westchester that do not require State Training. shame on them

The volunteer service does its sellf a diservice but makeing the standards lower for them selves. sorry guys but you do-- when the firefighter one and two were being developed the Vol Organizations fought tooth and nail to keep the standards to a bare minium plain and simple. Thats why we are lacking behind other States.

Do I think 78 Hours is enough no I dont but its a start.

Career firefighter by State law must have a minium of 229 hours during their probationary period.

Police officers by State law require almost 300 hours if not more.

why does the Volunteer service, at lease the Alabny organization, want to hold you to just the minium??

As for Classes at teh County level and State level-- the county is in the process of adding more County Fire Instructors. and adding at least one more state Instructor.

Keep pushing for more classes, keep the traing center alive with quality training--- we need a better product--the people we protect deserve it.

[HFD23 37]

I personally think that the standards need to be raised and maybe FFI is the start at 78 hours but I thing new York state should require certain progression within a period of time form FFI to then in lets say 1 year complete Survival and Fast training, Then the next 6 months truck ops and so on this way it helps to meet the schedule of volunteers the key is making everything accessible to all being that they are giving up their time freely to provide this service to their community and the need for higher standards is in no way meant to drive off volunteers by making the standards to hard, but lets face it firefighting isn’t a game we loose over 100 FF's a year .. 104 to date as of 2050hrs December 6th... unacceptable and its the lack of training and lack of physically fitness that is killing our brothers.... so yeas the standards need to be raised maybe something that slow progress and just sets a broad time line that a volunteer firefighter must contain to achieve in order to keep they furthering training and not just doing the minimum... which is basic at best...

[Guest]

Jibehofd, here's the answer to your "homeland security $$" question. And this piece was written by Gov.Kean and Cong.Hamilton the heads of the 9-11 Commission.

As you can see, $$$ were given out but completely mismanaged. What worries me is where is the next round of the really needed $$ going to come from now that we're buried to our necks in deficits.....

December 5, 2005

Op-Ed Contributors

NYTimes

A Formula for Disaster

By THOMAS H. KEAN and LEE H. HAMILTON

SINCE the passage of the USA Patriot Act of 2001, the federal government has distributed more than $8 billion to help local police departments, firefighters and emergency medical technicians pay for equipment and training to prepare for terrorist attacks, including nuclear, radiological, chemical or biological strikes.

In our report, the 9/11 commission recommended that this assistance "be based strictly on an assessment of risks and vulnerabilities." It seemed obvious to us that national security resources should be deployed where the threat is greatest.

Unfortunately, the original Patriot Act did not require these funds to be allocated on the basis of risk. Billions have been distributed with virtually no risk assessment, and little planning. Nor has the federal government set preparedness standards to help state and local governments use the money wisely.

The District of Columbia used part of its grant to buy leather jackets and to send sanitation workers to self-improvement seminars. Newark bought air-conditioned garbage trucks. Columbus, Ohio, bought body armor for fire department dogs. These are not the priorities of a nation under threat.

The result of this disarray is that taxpayers have no guarantee that these billions have increased our overall level of national preparedness. The response to Hurricane Katrina suggests that we have not come far.

Congress has a golden opportunity to repair this program before the end of the year. A House-Senate conference committee is negotiating a compromise bill to reauthorize the Patriot Act. The House-passed version included an excellent bipartisan formula for first responder grants, which would distribute money strictly based on risks and vulnerabilities.

States would have to submit a detailed security plan to the Department of Homeland Security, and a board drawing on top officials from the department and from the Department of Agriculture (a critical agency for responding to threats to the food supply) would review applications for grants and set priorities. These and other provisions in the House formula would ensure that the grants actually improve national security.

Unfortunately, this provision will not become part of the final Patriot Act bill - it will not become law-unless six senators in the conference committee support it. So far, only five do. We hope that the remaining five senators will join in supporting the House provision.

Small states and rural areas have little reason to fear the House formula. The House approach does not favor urban areas or large states based on preconceived notions of threat. Rather, it creates an objective process to assess risk, vulnerability and the consequences of an attack.

House members from states large and small, districts urban and rural, recognized this when they approved the risk-based formula 409-10, an overwhelming bipartisan majority. Risk assessment is not a competition between states - its goal is to ensure that all of our nation is protected.

This reform is too important to fail by one vote. We are a nation under threat, and these funds are a critical element in our defense. Our elected representatives need to demonstrate leadership and act to increase the safety of the American people.

Thomas H. Kean and Lee H. Hamilton are, respectively, the former chairmanand vice chairman of the 9/11 commission.

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

Bottom line… Firefighters, career or volunteer, should all be held to the same standards.

A friend of mine volunteers for a department in Arizona. Prior to EVER getting on a piece of apparatus, he needed to have his AZ FF I & II, 24 to 40 Hrs of HAZ MAT training, AZ EMT, and Wild land firefighter. The academy he attended is the same one the local career guys go to (except Phoenix). The volunteers trained side by side with the career staff and are required to have the SAME amount of in service training hours as the career staff.

[ex-commish 490]

The original FF1 was supposed to be more than 78 hours. It was chopped due to FASNY, an organization that is supposed to represent us and look out for our safety. They were concerned that more training would prevent people from joining volunteer deparments so now we have a 78 hour version of FF1. I do believe it is a step in the right direction and you are getting a better trained firefighter but I feel the original FF1 should of remained.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Bottom line… Firefighters, career or volunteer, should all be held to the same standards.

A friend of mine volunteers for a department in Arizona.  Prior to EVER getting on a piece of apparatus, he needed to have his AZ FF I & II, 24 to 40 Hrs of HAZ MAT  training, AZ EMT, and Wild land firefighter.  The academy he attended is the same one the local career guys go to (except Phoenix).  The volunteers trained side by side with the career staff and are required to have the SAME amount of in service training hours as the career staff.

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http://volusia.org/fireservices/bulletin.pdf

These are all the classes I must take in FL before stepping on the aparatus as well. 13 in total and im 4 down. Orientation (4 hours), ICS-100 (20 page take home woth test), CPR (BLS for the healthcare provider), IRHMI:BC (intial response to haz-mat incident : basic concepts...12 hours) and a lot more to go

Edited December 7, 2005 by EMSJunkie712

[ny10570 745]

THis topic has drifted over into skills training when the article is about reducing line of duty death in NY. "Maybe the easiest way to cut down on the deaths would be to require more physical-fitness training, said Byrnes and Thomas LaBelle, executive director of the state Fire Chiefs Association." This says it all right here. Guys are still dropping from cardiac and other health related problems more than anything else on the fire gound. Addd to that the fact that most mistakes occur after fatigue has set in and it all points to better physical condioning.

[firecapt32 282]

how about this survey how many departments really do have annual physicals with mask fit tests and pulmamoury function tests. most of you do but how do we get complience from the others?? is that where our numbers are coming from??

also responding and returniong from alarm seem to be a big contribuator to the deaths im sure theres soomthing we can do about that.

just my thoughts

the citizens we protect deserv the best so lets be there for them

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I see several valid points being brought up. But I think in the mix of this discussion we are crossing over one topic and another. If you look at the stats for FF deaths you will find heart attack the leading killer. I think the fact that we can't field enough guys on the fire ground thus forcing our people to multi task and become overly taxed plays more of a roll in that death than the fact that he or she only had 78 hrs of basic training.

I agree that NYS is WAY behind the rest in FF training and has been for pretty much ever. Westchester County was very progressive in that it was one of the few places that had a dedicated training facility. It was state of the art and because of budgets and poor management over the years had fallen WELL behind the many counties around us that now far EXCEED Westchester. In the last few years we are lucky enough to have started seeing a change for the good, and the ball is now rolling in the right direction to get us back up to speed. Will it take a long time? Yes, but at least we are moving forward.

I think one thing that contributed to our state having lower minimum standards for FF's is the fact that it is hard getting qualified instructors to run classes in the rural areas. Down around the tri state area we are spoiled in that we have several facilities either in counties around us or in municipalities within Westchester itself. If you were to go up north or in the west of the state is it not as easy to set up training etc. I also think that when the basic classes were 39 hrs etc. The electives that were offered were thought to supplement any lack of basic, and eventually add to the amount of training that FF has. Similar to the career academy. The FF I and II are only a portion of the 229 hrs of training they get. The electives that are offered to the Volunteers at night comprise most of the rest of that training.

Better recruitment and increased convenience/frequency of the elective classes will improve this situation.

Edited December 8, 2005 by COMMANDCHIEF

[firemn23 8]

What departments have equipment or a deal worked out with a local gym for physical fitness?

Who should be responsible for paying for this the companies or the department?

All volunteer companies recieve 2% money but how many used it on helping their members. I will bet we spent more 2% money on dinners than on physical fitness. We have control of this money and we should have used it to do whats in our members best interests.

[ex-commish 490]

"What departments have equipment or a deal worked out with a local gym for physical fitness?"

We ( Hawthorne FD) have a weight room with a complete set of dumbells ( not the two legged ones ), a universal set, bike, stepper, and treadmill.

"Who should be responsible for paying for this the companies or the department?"

I believe the AHD should be responsible. Our fire commissioners paid for the enitre room and have also paid for replacement of equipment.

"All volunteer companies recieve 2% money but how many used it on helping their members. I will bet we spent more 2% money on dinners than on physical fitness. We have control of this money and we should have used it to do whats in our members best interests."

Not all fire companies recieve 2% money. Many benevolent associations recieve 2% money and are bound by law to spend the money where it would benefit all benevolent members, many of whom are retired or no longer are active members. I do agree however that more needs to be emphaisized on fitness.

[Monty 35]

Interesting topic. Yes, the top cause of fatalities is medical (MI, CVA), the next is vehicle related, I'm sure we could do more training there. Anyone have any stats related to injuries though?

How about ensuring that the current rules are enforced? How many departments don't follow the current minimums? I'm sure they're out there .... How many do the bare minimum OSHA/NYS PESH 8 hours? Fit testing 29 CFR 1910.134? Bloodborne Pathogen CFR 1910.1030, Hep-B vaccination? Hazmat training?

If we could get the Departments / County / State to enforce what is currently out there would be a good start.

I agree that having the ability to take more training would be great - but I think we should first look at the current situation.

A previous department had basic courses that needed to be taken within one year as part of the mutual aid agreement within the municipality and the department had rules of at least 48 hours annual department training to be 'active'. I know places in Westchester that have active firefighters in their 80's living in Florida! Sure, acknowledge them for their service to the department, but are they really active?

<soapbox begin>Unfortunately, we have 200+ years of tradition resisting even these basic things. I mean, if it's worked for 200 years with no incident command, accountability, mandatory training, why do we need it now ?<soapbox end>

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Damn Monty, are you my twin. Well said!

[joeya7 1]

Damn Monty, are you my twin.  Well said!

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I have to say that the volunteer service has a lot to do with tradition and as we all know tradition went out with leather buckets and horse drawn wagons. New York will always be behind in volunteer training. It’s a shame but how can you hold a volunteer to meet the same training standards as a career firefighter?

[ajsbear 11]

Damn Monty, are you my twin.  Well said!

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"OHMYGOD" another TMAC, we're all in trouble.

[ex-commish 490]

I have to say that the volunteer service has a lot to do with tradition and as we all know tradition went out with leather buckets and horse drawn wagons.  New York will always be behind in volunteer training.  It’s a shame but how can you hold a volunteer to meet the same training standards as a career firefighter?

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As a chief of a volunteer department, instructor, and volunteer ff for almost 26 years I would like to address this. This may sound like the usual pitch but here it goes. We ( volunteers) are expected to respond to and handle what ever it is we are called to do such as our career counterparts. The business we are in is dangerous and requires training. The original FF1 and FF2 was the answer in my opinion as it a course of study that would of satisfied national standards and produce a better trained firefighter. The present FF1 is a good course, don't get me wrong, but it is watered down thanks to FASNY and other organizations who only seem to want to protect the status quo.

While I understand time is an issue for many volunteers but if you get hurt, you will have to find time to heal. If you get killed, you don't get a second chance. And allthough nothing is fullproof in this risky business, good and consistent training is the key to reducing death and injury. We find time to attend parades and banquets and other social functions but it seems to be a problem when time is needed to to something that may save your life....something wrong here.

I am not in any way bashing or criticizing the volunteer fire service. I have been a part of it for many years and hope to go quite a few more. I do see an increase of training and the desire for it. I think the newer generation of leadership wants a more professionally, competent, trained firefighter and by judging the attendance at the training center and the skill level demonstrated, many volunteer departments are stepping up to the plate and not settling for less and my hats off to them. Off the soapbox.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[Guest Truckie 1075]

I feel a little anger and hostility here... good luck guys... i'm leaving this post...

all i can say is you can never trail enough... set some higher standards

[Guest]

As a chief of a volunteer department, instructor, and volunteer ff for almost 26 years I would like to address this. This may sound like the usual pitch but here it goes. We ( volunteers) are expected to respond to and handle what ever it is we are called to do such as our career counterparts. The business we are in is dangerous and requires training. The original FF1 and FF2 was the answer in my opinion as it a course of study that would of satisfied national standards and produce a better trained firefighter. The present FF1 is a good course, don't get me wrong, but it is watered down thanks to FASNY and other organizations who only seem to want to protect the status quo.

While I understand time is an issue for many volunteers but if you get hurt, you will have to find time to heal. If you get killed, you don't get a second chance.  And allthough nothing is fullproof in this risky business, good and consistent training is the key to reducing death and injury. We find time to attend parades and banquets and other social functions but it seems to be a problem when time is needed to to something that may save your life....something wrong here.

I am not in any way bashing or criticizing the volunteer fire service. I have been a part of it for many years and hope to go quite a few more. I do see an increase of training and the desire for it. I think the newer generation of leadership wants a more professionally, competent, trained firefighter and by judging the attendance at the training center and the skill level demonstrated, many volunteer departments are stepping up to the plate and not settling for less and my hats off to them.  Off the soapbox.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

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very well articulated chief, couldnt have said it any better myself. Its attitudes like this that not onyl save lives, but helps in providing top notch protection of the plubic.

[firecapt32 282]

I gotta reply to some of this before emt bravo cuts us off.

training is training-lets all get on the same page. Chief Mancusi said a lot and it goes a long way. We must put our egos aside and we should. lets remember what we are really in the business for--PROTECT LIVES- PROTECT PROPERTY. Am I at least right on that-- I hope so. Wether you'r in Hawthorne or Tarrytown its the people-- the citizens we are to protect-- we owe it to them, we owe it to our selves to be the best trainied firefighters that we can be. Firefighter 1 and 2 are headed in the right direction.

Cuffs I aggre with you that the Tarrtown situation is an unusual one. I can only hope that they can move foward and progress so that the Tarrytown F.D. again earns the respect of the firefighting community.

I will go out on a limb here and say that any department that needs help with OSHA compliance ,mask fit tests, physicals, or what ever training they need, the County will be more then willing to meet them more then half way, but they must be able to help them selves and realize that mabey, just mabey some of their traditions are a little too far in the past and shoud be updated

Just me thoughts

State Instructor 6030

[firemoose827 324]

I dont know about any of your departments, but in mine there are a lot of people who actually think that training classes are a waste of time and that what training they receive at our drills is good enough. Needless to say, I do not go interior with any of them but it is still a scary thought to think that people are entering burning buildings armed with info they get from buddies, or relatives who still believe in old-school practices. We need more education and physical fitness in the fire service REGARDLESS if you are paid or volunteer.

[Guest]

you can take all the training you want at the county level, just like the career ff's do, but that's just basics...it means very little when guys learn together and then get shipped to departments around the county and never work together again. Eveyone should have ff1 & ff2, or the equivilent...that's just basics...but then you have to drill together in your houses, in your departments, and with your neighboring communities. Forget paid vs. volley, very few of either train like they should, and never train together and that's wrong. Personal fitness and fire survival is essential, but doesn't put a fire out. Proper hoseline placement and truck work does. In lieu of fires , drilling... proper drilling is the only answer. But you are all right, before you drill in house, you have to know THE BASICS!