Fire Truck Safety Once Again A Burning Issue

[Guest]

(CBS) NEW YORK After Friday night's fall from a truck left a firefighter in critical but stable condition with a fractured skull, the issue of fire truck safety and maintenance has once again come to the forefront.

United Firefighters Association President Steve Cassidy blasted the FDNY on Saturday, citing the department's failure to address the issue of aging and unsafe trucks. FDNY public information officer Seth E. Andrews responded by saying the Department as well as Seagrave, the maintenance company in question, have made improvements in both safety and repairs of late.

Below is Steve Cassidy's statement from Saturday:

"Several months ago the UFA brought to the Fire Department and the public's attention a severe problem with the city's procurement process to replace aging fire trucks. This failure by the department was requiring older and in some cases unsafe rigs to be kept in service.

As reported, the problem of an aging FDNY fleet were being compounded by the department's purchase of new fire vehicles that have not worked properly and were declared unfit to be put onto the streets of New York.

These unresolved management issues took a turn for the worse on Friday night, when a firefighter almost lost his life responding to a Manhattan fire as he was ejected from an unsafe and almost 20-year old fire truck. How can it be that in a city with an annual budget of over $55 billion dollars that the lives of firefighters and the citizens we are sworn to protect depends on apparatus built in the 1980's when Ed Koch was Mayor

It is clear that the city's procurement process is broken and taxpayers should be furious with the caliber of equipment the Fire Department is forcing its firefighters to operate with. Putting old and unsafe rigs and safety equipment on the streets endangers the lives of firefighters and civilians alike.

The lack of corrective action by the Fire Department has and continues to place firefighters and the public we serve in danger. The UFA will be conducting its own investigation into the circumstances of this tragedy in an effort to insure that firefighter and the public safety are not unnecessarily jeopardized."

Below is Seth E. Andrews' statement from Saturday:

"The Fire Department has been proactive in addressing the issue of procuring and repairing fire trucks. In fact, the FDNY has brought in both fire unions in an attempt to work together on this important task. Steve Cassidy is disingenuous in his comments regarding this.

Seagrave, the Wisconsin-based firm that provides the FDNY with its fire trucks, has experienced recent problems in meeting its responsibilities both in supplying new vehicles and making warranty repairs. The FDNY has been aggressive and relentless in pressuring the firm to improve, or risk losing our business. Since then, there have been measurable improvements and the FDNY will keep the pressure up to make certain Seagrave meets all of its contractual obligations.

The Department is committed to providing the best equipment for firefighters. As for the exact cause of this serious accident, we will wait for the results of investigations by our safety command and the NYPD."

Friday night's incident left three-year veteran Joseph Moore of Ladder Company 13 in critical condition after he toppled out of the moving truck while it was en route to a fire at a bagel shop at 1640 York Ave, department spokesman Kevin Nolan said. Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta went to the hospital, Nolan added.

The exact cause of the incident remains under investigation, but the fire truck was an older model from 1988 that had replaced the regular truck, which was being fixed, according to published reports.

Contrary to a report in Saturday's New York Times that said a faulty latch caused the fire truck door to swing open while Moore was standing inside, officials on Saturday said the door mechanism was working properly.

It was reported on Friday night the injured firefighter opened his eyes shortly after the accident. On Saturday, FDNY officials said he showed some movement in his hands.

[x648eng119 2]

Not to critisize, or judge, or anything along those lines, but i just wanted to point out that he was standing. Here they are bashing the city, and the apparatus manufacturer, but as we all know (even though we do it anyways) nobody should be standing while the vehicle is in motion. Everyone should be seated and belted in.

Best wishes to the injured firefighter..

[JBE 328]

Not to say the guy was right or wrong, but those rigs, if memory serves me, are not equipped with seat belts.

The fact remains that the quality of rigs being produced by Seagrave for the FDNY lately has been substandard. If the original 1999 or 2000 TL that 13 Truck is normally assigned had not broken down, this accident could have been avoided. The spare pool is pretty much depleted, and a number of Tower Ladders have been operating with Rear Mounts because there are none left in the spare pool, and only one is in Reserve Status. If Seagrave loses its contract with FDNY, you're going to see them take a huge hit in the wallet.

[hudson144 150]

boy does this all sound FAMILIAR!!!! I hope the injured member recovers 100 %, hopefully a lesson will be learned here for the admin of fdny as well as many other depts who do not have a plan for the purchase of apparatus. a lesson for depts who on a daily basis operate old worn out rigs as 1st due rigs. enough said!

[Guest]

December 4, 2005

Injured Firefighter Still in Critical Condition

By KAREEM FAHIM

NYTimes

A firefighter whose skull was fractured after he was thrown from a fire truck on Friday night remained in critical but stable condition yesterday at New York-Presbyterian/Weill Cornell hospital, according to fire officials.

The Fire Department continued its inquiry into what caused the firefighter to fall from the truck, an aging replacement vehicle that was standing in for a newer truck undergoing maintenance.

Te firefighter, Joseph Moore, 26, of Engine 22, Ladder 13 at 159 East 85th Street, fell at Lexington Avenue and East 85th Street about 8:30 p.m., when his truck turned a corner as it was going to a fire on York Avenue.

Mr. Moore had been sitting on the "back step," one of four seats in the rear cab of the tower ladder truck, and had been facing forward, a fire official said.

The cab had no roof and a half-door, the official said.

A preliminary investigation by safety inspectors suggested that the latch on Mr. Moore's door had not been faulty, the official said.

Law enforcement officials at the scene of the accident initially said that the latch might have been broken, or that Firefighter Moore might have been putting on his jacket when he fell over the half-door and into a crosswalk on Lexington Avenue.

Stephen J. Cassidy, the president of the firefighter's union, said in a statement, "Putting old and unsafe rigs and safety equipment on the streets endangers the lives of firefighters and civilians alike."

He added that the union would conduct its own investigation into the accident.

A man who answered the phone at Firefighter Moore's house, in Rockaway Park, Queens, declined to talk about the accident.

[Guest]

I saw a picture of the spare rig and it looks like it has a half covered cab and half doors in the rear, so there are no seats for the fith and sixth man. Poor condition if you ask me. The firefighter probobly had no choice but to stand from the looks of things. And really, who wears a belt while responding?!?!?!?! I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm jus tsaying that people just don't and thats how it is.

[x648eng119 2]

And really, who wears a belt while responding?!?!?!?! 

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When I'm driving, 100% of the time, when i'm riding, it goes on as soon as i'm dressed. Especially after one of my company's rigs rolled over last year.

But that wasn't the point of my earlier post. The main thing i was trying to get accross was that people were jumping to conclusions, blame the rig, blame the city. Yes, they are all factors, but it probably could have been avoided. I HAVE NOT SEEN A PIC OF THE RIG HE FELL OFF OF, so dont get me wrong, i'm not trying to prove anybody wrong or anything, but all i'm saying is there's gotta be a safer way. Maybe if there are no seats for the 5th and 6th riders, give them a spare battaliion car so they dont have to stand in a half open cab. Just some thoughts for people to consider

Edited December 4, 2005 by 648eng119

[Remember585 815]

Open cab, half-doors? Sounds like a Mack to me.

So how can anyone blame Seagrave for breaking down and being the reason for this accident? I would think that the blame may lie within the person or persons responsible for the maintenance of the reserve fleet, no?

Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery to the injured FF and his family.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First, I hope the brother recovers fully.

Second...

"That's just how it is.." is completely unacceptable. Perhaps we wouldn't have over a 100 LODD's if that comment was taken away. This isn't rocket science. Your in a truck you are belted. You take it off to put your pack on, you put it back on. An empty SCBA has a seat belt, but a person riding doesn't put it on. Bull$hit. It starts at the top. Its starts with you. If we want to get serious about safety then every department will demand and enforce 100% compliance with seat belt usage at all times. Want to really cure the problem, make it a federal law that LODD benefits will not apply for any emergency responder who is killed while performing duties who was not belted. No disrespect to anyone's service, but if you want to get real about safety, you need to get real with criteria and SOG's to deal with it.

[Guest]

I saw a picture of the spare rig and it looks like it has a half covered cab and half doors in the rear, so there are no seats for the fith and sixth man.  Poor condition if you ask me.  The firefighter probobly had no choice but to stand from the looks of things.  And really, who wears a belt while responding?!?!?!?!  I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm jus tsaying that people just don't and thats how it is.

←

On those older Mack Towers the seats for the 5th and 6th man fold down. We've all been guilty of standing at one point in time.......this is no time for critisism, we need to pray for FF Moore.

I think the problem they have with Seagrave is that so many of the "newer" Tower Ladders are seeing down time when they shouldn't be.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Sq288_HM1

[TRUCK6018 50]

I'd like to wish Firefighter Moore a speedy recovery.

There are two issues here as far as I'm concerned:

1) Seat belt usage.

Have a SOP everyone must wear their seat belt while the vehicle is in motion at all times. PERIOD! While I respect your opinion ALS, the few seconds that someone takes the belt off to don their SCBA can mean a life. Phoenix Fire Chief Alan Brunacini made it impossible to take off your seat belt to don your SCBA. He orders ALL SCBA's removed from the jump seats. Granted, it was a bold, controversial move. If one life is saved, it's worth it.

2) NFPA 1901.

NFPA 1901 recommendations are in place for apparatus safety. I understand all the BS issues: "New York isn't an NFPA state". "They can't tell us what to do". etc. The fact of the matter is, NFPA 1901 would have prevented this from happening.

At a time, apparatus were grandfathered prior to the NFPA revisions. With the 2004 revision, this has changed. NFPA 1901, Annex D, 2004 edition has a schedule of apparatus replacement.

In a nutshell, Annex D states:

"It is recommended that apparatus built to meet the 1979 or 1985 editions of NFPA 1901 (or equivalent ULC Standards) be placed in reserve status and upgraded to incorporate as many features of the post 1991 fire apparatus as possible".

Additionally, it states "Apparatus not built to NFPA apparatus standards or manufactured prior to 1979 (over 24 years old) should be considered for upgrading or replacement".

Should these guide lines be implemented, that Baker would not have been on the street in it's current state.

For anyone interested, here's the complete run down on NFPA 1901 Annex D:

Annex D Guidelines for First Line and Reserve Apparatus

[GoshenFD 0]

I also hope FF Moore has a quick recovery. Open jump seats scare me, even if they have some little half door, this incident shows they don't really do much good. We have one engine left in our department with open jump seats and when whenever I am riding in the back of it I buckle up.

I know firefighters everywhere used to ride on the back step of the engine which in my opinion is madness. I certainly don't trust myself to be able to hold on without slipping while the engine is going full bore down city streets, let alone trying to put your gear on in the process. The safest way is to have enclosed cabs and avoid getting dressed while responding.

As for the rig in question, I believe it is the Mack shown on this page:

http://fdnytrucks.com/files/html/manhattan/e22.htm

[Guest]

I also hope FF Moore has a quick recovery. Open jump seats scare me, even if they have some little half door, this incident shows they don't really do much good. We have one engine left in our department with open jump seats and when whenever I am riding in the back of it I buckle up.

I know firefighters everywhere used to ride on the back step of the engine which in my opinion is madness. I certainly don't trust myself to be able to hold on without slipping while the engine is going full bore down city streets, let alone trying to put your gear on in the process. The safest way is to have enclosed cabs and avoid getting dressed while responding.

As for the rig in question, I believe it is the Mack shown on this page:

http://fdnytrucks.com/files/html/manhattan/e22.htm

←

Goshen, I don't believe that was the rig in question........the rig involved in the accident was a 1988 spare rig, the rig photograped there is MT8704. It is however, the type of rig that was involved in the accident.

[Guest]

Hey, just to clarify to you guys about safety and SOP's, you are all very very right!! No question about it, there is no reason that you shouldn't put your seatbelt on, none at all. However, its something that I believe is rarely done and I don't believe that I've ever seen it done. This isn't a good thing, but I was just trying to stress that it doesn't happen often enough to be surprised when someone isn't wearing one. As for that old Mack, I doubt it had belts. That was a good idea about the spare battalion car for those who would have to be seated in the open air portion of the rig.

I wish a speedy recovery......

[Guest]

Is this report true ?? Never know, with the Post......

MORE TRUCK TROUBLES FOR EAST SIDE FIRE COMPANY

By TOM LIDDY

NY Post online

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 4, 2005 -- A day after a firefighter's skull was cracked in a fall from an aging replacement firetruck, his Upper East Side company experienced a vehicle malfunction with yet another replacement rig.

The ladder on the latest truck assigned to Ladder 13 was stuck in an upright position for over an hour last night as the firefighters responded to an alarm.

Mechanics found that the truck's aerial lock was bent — which could have sent the ladder whipping through the air had the hydraulic system failed.

"The city doesn't care," fumed a Ladder 13 member who requested anonymity...

[Guest]

true

[Guest]

Hoss if that post form the NY Post is true I say change the number of the ladder company from 13 to another....geshhhhh!!!!

[Guest]

Commissioner Says Latch Not To Blame In NY Firefighter's Fall

12-07-2005 01:09:35 PM

Courtesy of NY1 News

    New York Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta says that the door latch blamed after a firefighter's near fatal fall from an FDNY truck Friday night was not faulty.

Firefighter Joseph Moore fractured his skull after falling from a truck on its way to a call.

The truck, from Ladder Company 13, was making a left turn on to Lexington Avenue between 84th and 85th streets when Moore fell out.

Commissioner Scoppetta says that it's still unclear why Moore fell out.

"Apparently preliminary indications are that there was no faulty latch on the door, and we are now interviewing everybody who was involved, who was working on that rig that night," said Scoppetta.

Moore is listed in critical but stable condition at New York Hospital/Cornell Medical Center.

The truck has been taken out of service during the investigation.

[Firefighter57 0]

Hoss if that post form the NY Post is true I say change the number of the ladder company from 13 to another....geshhhhh!!!!

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yeah...sounds like 13 is living up its standards as being an unlucky #

heres a ? for yall....if the ladder was bent, how did who ever used it last get it beded, or was it bent durring the run that they were on?