Shipping Containers For Small Training Buildings?

[x635 4,066]

I'm suprised that I don't see more departments around the area use shipping containers for training.

I would think that these would be fairly cheap, easy to locate and obtain, and easy to convert to a small training building.

These boxes seem like they can be easily modified in house to include several props for training, using membership and materials found in the community.

Some uses I can think of, and some can be most-in-one:

-Search and Rescue maze

-Mask Confidence

-Roof simulator

-Confined Space simulator

-Ladder prop

-Small Class-A burns (maybe not)

-Truck or large vessel fire simulator via class A materials

-Forcible entry simulator

-FAST/Survival training

So, am I missing something? Do some departments in the area have these, or has anybody considered them? And are there any disadvantages?

Edited December 1, 2005 by x635

[Guest]

Check out Jim McCormick's place in Indy! He has them and uses them for live fire training. He has a 2 1/2 story and is building an apartment building set up like an SRO that might be five stories. I have trained out there and they are impressive. But at first sight I was very skeptical, don't let your eye fool you, they work very well.

I'm not sure if you can see them in the pictures on his web site be he said hes going to get a picture page going soon.

www.fdtraining.com

G

[ny10570 745]

The flashover simulator in Rockland (a must use for everyone) is made from shipping containers.

[llm60 0]

Westchester training center uses 3 or 4 of them for mask confidence training.

[x635 4,066]

Westchester training center uses 3 or 4 of them for mask confidence training.

←

WCFTC's Mask Confidence Course is made of two old 30' highway-style box trailers, not shipping containers. (A new Mask Confidence course is rumored to be in the works, using a real, newly constructed structure)

The FTC does use some shipping containers, by the apparatus egress circle, for storage.

Here is a photo of a shipping container:

ttp://www.containerarchitecture.co.nz/images/containers/40ft_blue_shipping_container.jpg

And shipping containers used to build a house:

http://shipping-container-housing.com/imag...ing-systems.jpg

Suprisingly, during my Google search of this, I found several sites...and buildings, using "shipping container" architecture.

Even though utilizing these structures for live fire training isn't practical, for the reasons mentioned by Homer J., I still think these buildings can make excellent multi-function, local training structures, with some in-house work.

Edited December 6, 2005 by x635

[Guest]

Beg to differ but......

Shipping containers work very well for live fire.Our dept has used them for years for every probie class without problem.We put both doors and windows in ours with great results.We vent the roof just fine without burning boots and yes it is hot.Worried about steam? Learn proper nozzle and steam isn't a problem at all. Ours is a double decker and is AWSOME. It does get hot and has some limitations but all in all make for good training.We also built a pitched roof simulator on ours with outstanding results.

Edited December 10, 2005 by medic315

[BFD1054 1,552]

Found this in this months Firehouse magazine....

http://www.mobilefireunits.com/index.htm

[x635 4,066]

Great find Mike! The more and more I see, the more and more I want to build one.

x635 Training Buildings, Incorporated.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Thanks Seth. I too would be interested in getting one of these for my department. When i tried to get pricing info, it sent me to an e-mail address, so i didn't bother. I can't see them being all that expensive and it would be worth it becuase you would get great training out of it!

[Guest]

I agree the containers make good buildings for live fire training at a reasonable cost. As for getting burned you must be doing something wrong. What Nozzle type are you using. Heat transfer from steel through bunker gear is a problem if you lean against a hot wall. Flashover containers offer a nice show but putting out a fire in a container is even better.

[x635 4,066]

I agree the containers make good buildings for live fire training at a reasonable cost. As for getting burned you must be doing something wrong. What Nozzle type are you using. Heat transfer from steel through bunker gear is a problem if you lean against a hot wall. Flashover containers offer a nice show but putting out a fire in a container is even better.

←

Actually, I don't think getting burned in a metal container is doing something wrong no matter what the nozzle type you are using. Putting out a fire in a metal box is a lot different then one in a concrete or wood one....you are basically crawling on and in a supercharged, even/unified heat. If you noticed, metal training buildings and containers that are properly converted use some sort of "liner" to prevent this. Even if you don't lean up against a wall, you are still exposed and vunerable to this different type of heat.

I can't remember where, but someone was telling me about a training container possibly upstate that was shut down due to FF's damaging their turnout gear in the container.

Edited December 13, 2005 by x635

[Guest]

The reason they use those panels is to prevent thermal shock to the container and to prolong it's life. True a container burn is different that a structure burn. Container burns are much more predictable and don't extend. The heat is not evenly distributed in a container. Often like in a flashover container its hotter near the back than closer to the fire due to the heat radiating off the back/foward wall.

As for burns, you should avoid comming in conatct with a heated wall and if steam is the problem your either creating to much yourself with the nozzle or you have no ventilation, or both.

[Jybehofd 85]

Being in the commerical shipping industry I know shippers such as A&O MSC Mearsk and the other have one major problem on there hands. They can't really get rid of the shipping containers. I am sure if you approach them the right way you can either get the container for free or a small fee to transport the container to where you need it. Desposal of the containers is hard for them but most of the time they try to recycle them. But you would be surpised in the amount of containers at a terminal that are not being used and just wasting space.

[Guest]

Homer,

What's with the attitude?All I did was debunk some issues that you stated about container burn buildings.Since (by your own admission) you have never done any evolutions in them,mabye you shouldn't talk about problems with them. Did you even bother to check out some of the links on this post?Mabye some of the problems are in the way Putnam configured their system. There are a myraid of other training systems out there and it's up to you to seek out the ones that work for you and your situation.All I am saying is that my dept. has used them for a few years without any of the problems you stated.

So if you must know:

Horry County Fire Rescue. South Carolina.

350 paid/ 300 vollie running 20+ stations in one of the largest counties east of the Mississippi. You are more than welcome to come on down and inquire at the academy about the boxes we will more than gladly show them to you.You might even learn thing or two.

Edited December 15, 2005 by medic315

[firecapt32 282]

ohh boy is homer going to be upset when he read this. hes a smart man and knows a lot of things.

[firecapt32 282]

if i wasent so tired for the probie graduation today id enter into this discuession but right now i have to bond witih my easy chair.

[Guest]

Homer,

Ok, cool.

The system we use is 3, 45' containers.We stacked two and put the the third behind them with about 20' overlapping one end.To answer the window and door size question as well as the sharp edge question...We cut a door frame in the center of the long side as well as two windows.We cut them to standard window and door frame size.The way we avoided sharp edges and such is to weld angle iron around the cut out for a frame.From there we used the piece that got cut out shaved it down and welded anther angle iron frame to it.Thats how we made the windows.The door got cut out and a frame was made the same way. The neat thing is we use steel doors and have it set up so we can run force entry drills at the same time.Answering the roof as a frying pan question...we made more than one room in the building so that we can burn one room and have to force entry into it and vent it.That in mind, if the back room is burning and we approach from the front on the roof.We are walking on the non-burning half of the container and then we vent the burning side.I guess one way not to heat the whole roof is not to burn the whole container all at once.There are stairs in the front container and a door leading to the back one.The front one has 3 rooms,the top has two ,and the back has two.On the overlapping portion we built a pitched roof sim.Wood frame with plywood tops.We put telephone poles around the entire unit and strung steel line around then and to the unit to sim. electrical service when throwing the ladders.We welded a gas meter to it as well with piping and shut off.Also mounted some service boxes with globes in them.All in all it is a really good system.

I do have pics and will try to post them ASAP.

The academy is open when a class is going through.Pretty often we have a class either paid or vollie giong thru.Days and nights we use it.

The website was a private one paid for by a training captain, but it is no more.

As always you are always welcome to come check it out.Come on down to the beach(Myrtle Beach is in Horry).Come ride,eat some chicken bog(southern chicken and rice dish)and see the sights.

Medic 315

[Guest]

Homer

Instant steam burns

What was the nozzle technique being used?

X635

Containers for live fire aren't practical

They sure are! They are cheap compaired to burn buildings, easy to set up different fires, no rekindles.

All live fire evolutions in houses or at academies must be run safely. Florida lost 3 firefighters all in training burns over the last few years. New Jersey doesn't allow live fire in acquired structures or class A burns. An instructor was killed in Penn at the fire academy burn building. If we are to keep this training going for future firefighters we need to find out why guys are getting steam burns in containers and put a stop to it.

[Guest]

I have operated with smooth bore nozzles in the container and never experienced what you describe. We do horizontal ventilation (window) and even when its been delayed - no steam

[Guest]

Homer,

We got lucky.One of our instructors is a master welder.He fabbed most of this as well as makes a bunch of tools for the academy.Pretty much anything that is done is done by instructors and FF's who help out.Always trying to improve it for the next class. We used angle iron frame for the door. We always are on the look-out for doors and windows and such.When we get some we try to fab it into opening, sometimes we re-frame sometimes it fits the frame already there.

Stay safe.

Edited December 17, 2005 by medic315

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I have also seen (and felt) what Homer J. is mentioning. When you burn in that container all day and the metal continuously heats up, steam can and sometimes does become an issue. As with any burn building. Fact is many of us teach raw students who have to learn fire stream management, so sometimes improper application occurs. I have seen some shipping container type buildings that were great and had all appropriate safety and egress built in and I have seen some that gave me the you gotta be kidding me thought rolling in my mind.

How does a burn building have a rekindle? Or were you referring to a acquired structure for live fire training. A burn building by definition is a building designed for continous burning.

Whoever mentioned that live fire needs to be done safely, I applaud you. NFPA 1403 was developed because many were not and we had a rash of injuries and deaths due to live fire. Unfortunately many are still not and we all have heard the stories over the past few years of what has happened. The death in PA, was the first one I could find documentation on that occurred in a "burn building." Unfortunately there wasn't any investigation fully done and no information has been released in regard to what the cause of death was and if there were any implications that other departments and training centers need to know. I am a huge opponent of acquired structure live fire training and will contine to be.

[Guest]

To alsfirefighter I did mean rekindles in acquired structures.

The PA death is not the first to happen in a burn building/academy. Florida's last live fire death was in a burn building.

The PA instructor died due to burns how it all happened is still being looked into he was alone at the time.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Unless there was another live fire training death in florida since 2003 that flew under the radar, their last live fire training death wasn't in a burn building. Funny enough it fits this topic to a tee, the death occurred in:

"A structure designed and constructed of marine shipping containers to represent a marine going vessel."

This creates 2 problems. 1. the investigation said the layout was too complicated for recruits and 2. much of what ships contain could be considered a confined space.

Also in the report it stated and this backs me and homer up more:

"They were instructed not to crawl over the metal grating but to stay on their feet and duck walk since the metal structure had gotten very hot. They were also told to advoid holding the handrail on the ladder to prevent burns through their gloves."

Why? High heat retention due to the thin steel construction from numerous training evolutions that day. Yes the mock-up layout didn't help due to little or no ventilation capability. I'm not entirely sure if NFPA 1402 covers ship mock ups or not, so I can't comment on whether or not similiar ventilation requirements are similiar from burn building to a ship mock up.

If you are going to utilize metal shipping containers for live fire training, please, ensure that you follow nfpa 1402 in its design prior to use and that you follow NFPA 1403 to conduct them. Enough is enough losing firefighters during training. You may get away with something 99 times, but its the 1 time that gets us in trouble. And if you do, you may see me sitting across from you in court and you won't like what I have to say.

[Guest]

als - thats the one! I refered to it as a burn building only because it was located at a training facility. I have not seen pictures but I will assume they tried to make it just like a ship with metal floors. When your crawing in a single level container there is no hot floor (metal) to deal with its a wooden floor.

There were several things that went on there that resulted in tragedy.

Containers on a whole represent a good option for depts. looking to do live fire.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

A wooden floor? To burn on. Check NFPA 1402 but I believe that you cannot have any combustible material as part of the structure to be considered a "burn building."

There is a picture on the report for the fataility. I couldn't transfer it over because it is a PDF file.

[Guest]

I don't have a problem with 1403 and I believe we should try and go beyond what it calls for, however when you are dealing with a single level container and are conducting burns there is no need to remove the wooden flooring. Yes, the burn area must be protected by block or some other material but the other portions of the container should stay the way they came. Container can be slightly tilted to aid in water run off but lets not get crazy, NFPA is a guideline.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Maybe this should start another thread...but NFPA is not a guideline. They are standards and they should be followed. I don't call a standard that was made, because we lost firefighters going crazy. A standard that if it was followed, probably would have prevented the loss of 12 firefighters in the past 10-12 years.

If NFPA were just a guideline, what would our PPE consist of? What about any piece of equipment we utilize? They are made to meet a standard, a minimum of what construction must be, the material used, right down to how much reflective trim is on them.

NFPA was successfully used in a trial in upstate NY to convict a Asst. Chief, and was also used successfully in civil court to find him neglegable for not following a NFPA standard.

[firecapt32 282]

See what happends when you say NFPA is only a guideline if you ever get to court!! Its the STANDARD for the fire service

We had better read it and understand it.

have a safe holiday

firecapt32

[Guest]

ALS - I was refering to NFPA 1402 and "if" it states that a single level container should have it's wooden floor removed for fire safety I do believe that is excessive.

This is the second time you've turned into the word police on me. I must remember to be more carefull around you.

NFPA 1403 as "the Standard" doesn't cover everything you should do to safely conduct a live burn. If you really want to be safe you have to do more than it requires. So you can follow the standard and feel protected. I'll go beyond it using it as my guideline and feel protected.

At live burns there is no substitute for common sense and seasoned firefighter/live burn instructors. As for that chief at trial 1403 was used but probally wasn't necessary.

Capt 32 - I don't plan on being in court at either table.