How do we produce a better fire officer

[firecapt32 282]

How do we get our departments to inhance our training--inother words how do we make a better product--ie fire officer. We have seen that many departments have no rhyme or reason as to how a mamber becomes a officer while other departments have strict policies. why such a difference in one county??

just thought i would ask

[Guest]

As in any organization, it all flows from above, both the good and the bad. If you are fortunate enough to have smart, trained progressive leaders as Chiefs and company officers you are in luck. This will happen whether these officers are appointed or elected.

Of course luck shoud not be a factor in the equation. But, for example, what are the consequences for an officer who consistently does not don his PPE at a call unless it's a structural fire ?? Many times, none. Some of the new recruits will follow the bad example while others will not. Who will confront this person in private and point out the obvious ? No easy answers...

To lead effectively means not caring about off-the-fireground personal friendships, political winds or the next election. That is why there are so few good leaders.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I think one key component is get people with more that the bear minimum of time required to run for office. It's gotten to the point where people are still learning their basics while expected to lead others. In part this is because of a shortage of experienced members wishing to take on the added responsability. But this makes for a dangerous situation.

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

I think one key component is get people with more that the bear minimum of time required to run for office.  It's gotten to the point where people are still learning their basics while expected to lead others. In part this is because of a shortage of experienced members wishing to take on the added responsability. But this makes for a dangerous situation.

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I think you have made a very important point. It seems like more often then not, people who are obviously not ready are moved up to officer positions are being moved up. You need to not only have the education, but the time in the department, and the variety of calls.

[CPFD91206 0]

If you are fortunate enough to have smart, trained progressive leaders as Chiefs and company officers you are in luck. This will happen whether these officers are appointed or elected.

I dont think I could have said it better ! Lead by example. Years ago there used to be mentoring programs or "buddy systems" when you first got in...... they always seemed to work, there should be the same for Officer Cadidates/ Officer Development.......... But Furthernore, there has to be dedication/devotion by the candidate for the "right reasons" not just a gold badge and a portable radio !

[JN352 0]

In addition to what has already been said, it is the responsibility of officers to show the next man in line his job and what has to be done. Too often we see politics playing into leadership and officers not learning from above. Once again this is because those senior officers were never shown the "right" way when they were jr ossifers!

Edited November 27, 2005 by JN352

[IzzyEng4 427]

A better fire officer, simple.

Besides all of the training, requirements, experience and so forth, there is one important thing above all. And it is only one word.......

LISTEN

That is all. A good fire officer must and sould listen to all of his / her subordinates and hear what they see. AND also thier supieriors. A good fire officer not only has to make decisions but has to be able to convey it back to his / her team.

By listening the individual officer can relate and convey his / her thoughts to everyone. Also an officer has to make a decision that would be benificial to all. your not going to please everyone of course.

No matter how many classes and vertificated you have, it still doesn't make you a good officer, you have to know how to use it in a given situation. That is why listening to you're crew is the key, in my opinion, in becoming a good officer.

[firecapt32 282]

do you think the county should have a" fire officer" development program and if so what should it contain??

[firecapt32 282]

homer you always impress me with your knonwledge. I see I have some reading to do.

[exmrvfc 0]

do you think the county should have a" fire officer"  development program and if  so  what should it contain??

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The County can't dictate what the departments should be doing. However, if you watch the course postings you can tell "what direction" they are going. This was evident by the number of Hazmat Ops courses they were offering over the last year. They did an informal survey and found a Huge need as a lot of firefighters did not have it. OSHA requires it if you respond to ANY type of hazmat spill or the potential release of one.

I think the County is doing a good job of trying to "round out" the firefighters by offering more than just FF1 and FF2. This is evidenced by the recent Fire Officer, Incident size up, Building construction and other classes.

As other people said before, it comes from the top down in actions and in words. We have been on a 5 year program to get EVERYONE that is an interior FF up to National FF2 standards.

[firecapt32 282]

I'm not saying that the county has to "dictate" but rather listen to the departments and CREATE a course that will satisify some of the needs and concerns of the county.. how to be a leader not just what s in intro to fire officer but you al know thers a lot more to it then just that, how do work a fire department drill how to set up a training program in your department, use the county its there for all of us.

[x635 4,066]

Although I'm still just a probie, and a very tired one right now, and don't know much at all, I'd like to add my 2 cents quickly.

Personally, I feel that leaders are bred from their first day of training. One crucial element that turns that firefighter into someone able to lead on the next level is experience. Someone who has fought the battle before has gotten his didatic education enhanced by being able to apply his or her skills, and gets the respect of those under their span of control. Do you want to follow someone who hasn't been in your shoes???

There needs to be a certification for Fire Officer. Who's elegible should be determined by yes, mandatory requirments, followed up by character, education, and experience...and ranked via a written, verbal, and practical test. And standards, developed, agreed upon, and voted on by every department in this county...none of this "They can't tell us what to do". In some cases, regulations can be our friend. None of this it's his/her turn. It's understandable that many agencies may have a lack of people capable to lead....could this be because of the over-abundance of officers? How can we expect our leaders to get enough experience when they can't even get any time in to do their jobs independtly? Maybe it's time to consider condensing the command structure in some areas, to allow those leaders a chance to lead.

In addition, I still believe in my vision for the WCFTC to partner with Westchester Community College, Pace, or Mercy to form a "Fire Academy" tract. Make some basic business, managment, human resources, and administration courses available to the future officers. Because an officers role is not only as a leader, but often an administrator.

There also needs to be a clear delineation and respect between someone who is charged with getting his/her firefighters home safely, and the people who follow them. A leader needs to act and behave like a leader, all the time, and anytime he/she is acting in a firematic capacity.

This person shouldn't forget, there are tons of peers available. Don't just depend on your department to grow, always seek out your peers in other agencies for support,perspective, and insight, and to better be able to set the foundation for that person who will eventually come in under you.

Oh yes, a leader is also a teacher.

And most importantly, teach and train to lead and work as a team early and often. That's a basic concept, but one which if not able to do, can become a critical wall in a person abilties to interact down the line.

I am lucky enough every day to train and work with some leaders I hope one day to emulate, and to train with my fellow probies who will make a HUGE impact, and be the proponents and recipients of some great,progressive changes in the future of the fire service in this county. We've been taught leadership since Day 1 in the academy, and the personal and professional growth we have had is because of the philosophy..and set the course for many great things, as afformentioned.

Often ( I saw it out driving just last night around 2130hrs), I see a white suburban with red stripes, fire district markings, and a lightbar driving around my town. It makes me safe in my community to know the person driving is a truly experienced, qualified leader, and everyone should have that feeling.

So, the short answer to the question posed in the title of this thread..."How Do We Produce Better Fire Officers?". The answer is quite simple in my eyes...we produce better firefighters. Because a leader's not neccarily someone with a title......because a leader doesn't assume power, a leader earns respect.

Disclaimer: That's it, that's my idealistic view which I shouldn't even have or say right now. Just some thoughts from my perspective starting out. I know I have no opinion or thoughts at all except the opinion and thoughts I am told to have, nor do I have any experience in this field. I know I should turn my fingers off, but honestly I don't know how sometimes, lol. This was just some delusional ramblings of mine due to me being so tired. And this is a different x635 that wrote this, his other personality, his evil twin. I'm going to cower now.

Edited December 1, 2005 by x635

[Guest alsfirefighter]

OK, I've been waiting so now its my turn.

First, officer development starts with department responsibility and holding requirements that make sense, in regard to training and time and sticking to them. Its a little more then filling a slot, marching up front in a parade, a gold badge and a colored helmet. You can't think you know what your doing, you have to know what you are doing and realize you are a decision maker, a leader, not a worker. You have to be able to make decisions and develop your firefighters to be the next officer. Are you a leader? Or are you a firefighter with a colored helmet or red lights? When the dominoes of problem are falling, can you make the decision to pull one out to stop the fall? Can you run an incident when the Chief isn't there? I like the adage, lead, follow or get the fu(k out of the way.

For one the officer training courses that have been developed are a great resource and gives persons insight and skills to deal with personnel. What is additionally needed is courses which review tactics, building construction, fire behavior and allows them to think in a classroom so they can react and make sound tactical decisions on the fire ground. Easier said then done I know, and we can all do the round robin on classroom versus experience. I want the fire officer that has the classroom and the experience in front of me. Many fire officers are tasked with department training, but have never received training in instruction, how to set up a drill, or what needs to be done. This also needs to be addressed. You fight like you train. I've said it time and time again, if you go on the premise of you train like you fight, you got problems, because every incident has something that can be improved. You need to react and perform, and you will only do as you are trained.

Another idea I have, is continued fire education requirements. Firefighters should have a mandated amount of annual training that is enforced above what OSHA (which is a joke in my opinion) says and for fire officers this should be a must and have more advanced requirements. All medical personnel are required to do so, so why shouldn't a dangerous occupation like ours require 50 or more hours per year on topics such as fire behavior, building construction, tactics, handline selection, propane emergencies etc. To ensure sound skills, good decision making and the training to get them to react properly and make sound judgement all through whatever incident they are operating at.

[ajsbear 11]

Again ALS you it this one perfect. We need to work with the yonger members to help build them into effecient officers for the future. The more senior officers of today need to work with the younger officers to make them ready to lead. We also must stop just filling a position with a live body just to say we have a full list of officers. Nothng is worse than an inexperienced line officer (18, 19, 20 years old) no real experience, just out of FF1 and no clue. This person my be the only officer at a call. Do we want them making the important decision? There are some departments who have a line up of officers barely old enough to drink. (ok bad comparison) but you know what I mean. No real experience.

We need some guide lines for who qualifies, and mandated training. I don't think 50 hours is too much to commit to if you want to be an officer. Like someone said in an earlier post someplace. Career members must put in 100 plus traning hours a year. I think Volly's should all do 50 and officers more.

Just my opinon.

[firecapt32 282]

Homer---Als--- I think some one is a** kissing in here.whats he doing out at 2130 hours on a school night. He should be home studying. who was working?? It wasent you homer was it??

[firecapt32 282]

after 12 weeks i am finally catching on.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

My entire point is in the volunteer fire service, anyone can be thrust into a supervisory role at any moment. Its a lot more then just sitting in the front seat where the siren control and air horn chain is. At every incident someone has to take command. Note I didn't say be in charge. There is a difference between being and charge and taking command of something. The only way to learn is to do it. I see and hear time and time again, 2 or more chiefs responding to wires down, vehicles leaking fuel, CO calls, etc. Let your junior officers spread their wings and let them be command. There is nothing wrong with a chief taking a operations role and letting a junior officer or firefighter run a incident to learn.

[Guest]

My questions is ? .... How do firefighters know how to produce a better officer??? Too many inexperienced Monday morning quarterbacks giving solutions on how to make a better fire officer? This question should be entertained by experienced people in the fire service....Those with BATTLEFIELD fire experience...Hopefully officers and chiefs can give us Light on this topic, through their experiences as Officers.

[firecapt32 282]

sometimes when we try it falls on deaf ears. way too many times do we hear we do it this way in our depratment been doing it that way for 50 yrs why do we need to change?? well your not driving a 50 yr old car are you. some departments just have to move into the new century and I do nt mean just with apparatus either.

If departments just moved ahead I know the past offers a loook into the future but you have to get to the future first dont be stuck in the past.

If that happens Officers will emerge and lead and not just be a position on a chart in some chiefs car.

[ajsbear 11]

sometimes when we try  it falls on deaf ears. way too many times do we hear  we do it this way in our depratment been doing it that way for 50 yrs  why do we need to change?? well your  not driving a 50 yr old car are you. some departments  just have to move into the new century and I do nt mean just with apparatus either.

If departments  just moved ahead I know the past offers a loook into the future but you have to get to the future first  dont be stuck in the past.

If that happens Officers will emerge and lead and not  just be a position on a chart in some chiefs car.

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OK only a 48 year old car.

[x635 4,066]

My questions is ? ....    How do firefighters know how to produce a better officer??? Too many inexperienced Monday morning quarterbacks giving solutions on how to make a better fire officer?  This question should be entertained by experienced people in the fire service....Those with BATTLEFIELD fire experience...Hopefully officers and chiefs can give us Light on this topic, through their experiences as Officers.

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I disagree.

Your comment actually counters some of the things that make a better fire officer. Namely, not listening to the "troops".

Even though some people may not have a lot of experiece, they may see things that the officer may miss, or see things in a different light or frame of mind. This could lead to new techniques or ideas that may have been overlooked if the officer has an fairly open mind. Yes, there is a pecking order, and firefighters should, in no way, tell an officer how to do his job, and that's no what I am saying.

As far as the comment that's there's too many "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" on this thread....uh, no. Nobody's critiquing anybody, only giving their (constructive) ideas. Which everyone is entitled to do on this board.

Yes, the chiefs and current officers have been through it, and have some knowledge of the position, but the firefighters are the next officers and have been at the recieving end of the leadership.

Edited December 6, 2005 by x635

[firecapt32 282]

I have just read in fire engeneering about testing for volunteer officers do you think its a good idea?? some sort of national test for officers on the same level as national testing for firefoghter one and two??

[Guest]

What about attitude?

[HFD23 37]

I have just read in fire engeneering  about testing for volunteer officers  do you think its a good idea??  some sort of national test for officers on the same level as national testing for firefoghter one and two??

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honestly captain I know that Greenville volunteers used to have to basically recertify yearly usually in June or July I haven’t; heard or seen it as much lately but I remember doing burn building evolutions at the FTC as well as them doing rig quiz’s.. Correct me if I am wrong...

But I was always interested in trying to developed some sort of recertification test both written n hands on, maybe 50 MC questions and then practical evolutions with scales to be rated on these could be as basic as ground ladder placement, hose stretching, search n rescue, fire attack rook work. And on up maybe rate them based on time, how accurate the search was the whole area covered? victim found, radio communications and so on maybe 10 stations 10 points each or even 5 stations 20 points each and let each Firefighter or team of 2 be rated in order to be recertified each year and maybe upon completion of FFI... I would think officers could also be tested the same in a drill situation based on how well he or she maintains a command post, frequent PAR's.. assigned tasks, used the ICS system, expanded the system as M/A rolled in and the overall out come of the fire and all assigned tasks, seems complicated but I just though it would be a interesting test for all firefighters especially volunteers who will be going to combination depts. and working with career FF:"s who have gone through he academy and this could be a good test to see where a dept as a whole lacks points if its a certain event and also certain FF's weaknesses will be exposed and thus they can be worked on.

any opinions

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Goalie, I haven't seen one monday morning quarterback reply on this thread. So where you see this I'd like to know.

Besides, whats wrong with monday morning quarterbacking? Maybe if we got off our high horses every once in a while and discussed incidents, including the problems maybe we wouldn't lose over a 100 firefighters per year. The times of no one got hurt and the fire went out should be over. Near misses still happen and nothing gets discussed. Major operational and tactical problems and mistakes are made, but we call it monday morning quarterbacking to discuss them. This isn't being critical this is called learning and enough is enough. Want to be a good fire officer, take critiscism and learn from your mistakes and don't be defensive about it.

[firecapt32 282]

als nothing like telling it like it is!!!! The citizens we protect deserve the best nothing less will do. The better the officer is trained the better they are to their community and to the service.

[hudson144 150]

Here is something to think about- if a new officer both volly or career was never a ball of fire as a firefighter don't expect wonders from that person after his promotion! you can take all the classes in the world for officer developement but if the individual never did his time in the trenches chances are he won't be in the trenches as an officer. i know a few that bark out orders like they are general patton but that is usually when the smoke clears and the overhaul/salvage begins!!!!!!!!!!!!