is there really hostility?

[DaveTFD 0]

without turning this into a rant from any1 because it is a ligit question from me, is there really hostility between paid and volunteer departments?

i mean, if fairview has a structure fire, would they not call elmsford because they are volunteer? and if they did would there be tension?

ive never experienced this because i am surrounded by volunteer departments and we all have mutal respect for eachother.

agian no ranting please and keep it friendly between the paid and volunteer guys/girls

[ems-buff 81]

Before I answer this I just want everyone to be aware that I mean in no: way, shape, or form for this to be offensive, and to anyone here that take offense to this I am sorry. These are just my opinions.

Well I think that there is no hostility between paid and volunteer, but then again I not speaking for everyone. I volunteer at an ems department and I work with people who work in the city. From what they say Volunteer’s are a good thing, but they seem less professional. (A.K.A. showing up on scene w/o BDU’s or something to that extent.) Fine I would give them that, but the way I look at it is all about Patients care. Who care if you get a little blood on your jeans just as long as you know that you did what you could to help said person in there time of need. I think that some people think just because they are paid they are better EMT’s or Medics then someone who does it for free. Maybe, Maybe not. Who knows? All I know is that when I’m in the back of the ambulance my main focus is that person laying in my cot. They don’t know or even care that I get a pay check or nothing at all. All they care about is that they call 911 for what ever reason, and I show up to help them. No questions asked. So to my knowledge I don’t know if there is a paid vs. volly’s thing going on. From an EMS stand point the one and only thing that should matter is that patients care is not in anyway compromised, because of people’s ego’s

[DOC22 1]

I agree with you, ems-buff, but I'll go one step further. I think as you stated, there is, in some cases an opinion on the "professionalism" BUT All FF's, EMT's MEDICS, are required to have certain training. However, A career FF goes thru the academy and it's his/her living. Volunteers come from all walks of life, all different types of people, it's now what they do for a living, if you grt my point. Also I think that a certain amount of the debate between career and volunteer is a union thing (they feel vollies take jobs away from them. They have a little trouble grasping the small town tax thing. just my 2 cents.

[Guest BrotherFF]

Both sides of the fence are held to different standards, such as physical fitness, which is part of the issue.

As far as the comment regarding unions feeling that vollies take jobs away from them, well and that small towns can't afford it....they could afford it if they found a way. If they can pay garbagemen, paramedics, school bus drivers, cops, DPW, etc they can certainly find a way to pay for firefighters. And if I went down to the DPW and volunteeered to plow during inclement weather, I'm sure the DPW guys would have something to say as well. BUT....it's not about that....it's about PUBLIC SAFETY!!! It seems some just want to be defensive about the issues, and pretend their not there. Both sides have problems. But maybe the unions are right, as afraid as some are to admit it. Would a career staff in some departments really hurt, in fact, several members of that department may end up getting good jobs and the community a better daytime response. The unions aren't evil just because they are looking out for their members, some of which live in these communities. And I haven't seen the unions do anything anti-vollie in years, if at all.

As far as the motivation and question posed in the first post, maybe paid departments call paid departments because they know who they will get, how many they will get and in know the state/fitness they are in,what level they are trained to, and they will get them in a known timeframe......and personal issues between the department's wouldn't come into play.Here is where standards come into play, and why standards should be equal for everyone.

I, like many of my collegues, reconize the devotion the volunteers have....to give up ample amounts of thier personal time to do what I get paid for is unimaginable to me. There is no hostilty per se, just firefighters who truly want to protect the public and get annoyed with all the "social club" issues and lesser standards of some departments. Can you be a professional and party in the same place? There are some great vollies, but then there are some-mostly the old schoolers, who give out a bad image.

[csf248 0]

i mean, if fairview has a structure fire, would they not call elmsford because they are volunteer? and if they did would there be tension?

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im from elmsford, and fairview has called us for m/a to many times to count. and we always work with eachother well.

i think the tension is caused by a few bad apples, who view volunteers as a threat to their jobs.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

I may be an explorer in a vollie dept., but have sat in the City of Albany on mutual aide (to cover the city) many times. I generally ride duty crew on the weekends, so I ride the calls. We have been called into the City of Albany several times when they had a working fire (usually 3rd alarm or higher), and they had run out of units. On one occasion, we sent an engine to one house, and a truck to another. I was on the truck, we were sent to a house with a reserve engine. The deputy chief requested that city ff's were recalled to staff the reserve apparatus. When the recall firefighters arrived, they did not say high, or even make eye contact. We are told to wait in the apparatus bay, so we do. We were not invited in, or talked to. We were eventually returned to service when the City of Troy's apparatus arrived in the city, with out a 'thank you' or even a nod. Other times, we have just gotten a "hi" or a quick chat, but nothing that you would come to expect in the fire service. Albany requests that we are called up to standby in their quarters until other paid departments are in the city. There is a rumor that the city will no longer use the volunteers to standby in their quarters.

My thoughts are, we could at least get a thank you or even a nod. We are all there to help the paid firefighters, whether we like them or not. I personally LOVE the City of Albany Fire Department. I go buffing there often, and am treated well. I ride with them sometimes, and also do fire apparatus/scene photography for them.

There would also be an issue, if the city decided not to call the vollies when they ran out of apparatus. Albany takes quite a few calls, my dept can be in the city with a fully staffed rig in 4-5 minutes. It takes Troy Fire 15-20 minutes to enter the city, Watervilet Fire about 15, Green Island Fire about 20-25, and Cohoes 25-30 minutes. That means, if the city is out of apparatus, they will be uncovered for at least 15 minutes. If they have a very large fire, and have already called Watervilet and Troy for apparatus, they won't get any more apparatus from those cities to cover their city. That means, if they have to call Green Island, or Cohoes, the city is not covered for 20+ minutes! Chances of not having any calls for 20+ minutes is very low, especially when there is a large fire in the city. They usually get a couple calls reporting an odor of smoke from various parts of the city, which requires a box assignment of 2 & 1 + a rescue, the rescue squad and a battalion chief (if the response protocols haven't been modified by a chief).

[firecapt32 282]

Wow Dave what a subject !!! trying to keep it on the right playing field and not making it a career/vs/ volunteer is going to be difficult.

Let me first state -- It's the citizens we protect they are the most important. Protecting them is our responsibility. Leaving egos aside and I know it's hard. heres my first thought

We all work for a living, we need a paycheck to survive in this world. Some of have chosen to be professional firefighters. In any society and in any culture if one does a job and does it well they wold like to be rewarded. Maslows therory of hirearchy. If you were a boss running a business and had employees( that s what career firefighters are employees) and were looking at a cost revenue( thats what city managers do) and some one said hey I can do the same job for no money (thats what volunteering means) dont you think the Employees have a right to be upset??

I am not demaning any volunteer firefighter believe me but this is my first reaction.

[LineCapt 134]

i think the tension is caused by a few bad apples, who view volunteers as a threat to their jobs.

←

That's just a very false assumption. Volunteer's aren't a threat to my job.....in fact, it's quite the opposite....

Edited November 16, 2005 by LineCapt

[4truck48 25]

Why would a paid ff be worried about a volunteer ff, the paid guy already has his job. I would think that it's the other was around the volly may be replaced some day by a paid dept. As for the unions being obsessed with the vollys I think that this is just the usual smoke screen thrown up by volunteer depts to keep their political clout.

[FF402 133]

Well said, 4Truck48.

Could the hostility out there be caused by MISUNDERSTANDINGS and EGOS of a FEW select members of both sides?????

[Guest JQP442]

While Im a Volli with no paid Depts arround me, I dont see too much hostility between the paid and volunteer firefighters. I think that what some people have already said here is correct. The training and standords MUST be the same for all!!! If anyone thinks that as a group, paid FF's have a problem with Volunteers, next time you take a class at the county training center, ask your instructor what he does for a living, Probably a paid FF. I can not remember the last time I had an instructor who was not. If they had problems with volli's then they would not be down there teaching us. Just a littel food for thaught

[Guest]

In my opinion, the only problem I have is when a "volley" from a dept that makes 10-20 runs a year, come onto my job and starts saying "well this is how we do it in Podunk USA".

Who cares...fighting fires in Podunk is much more different than fighting fires here in NYC. Building layouts are different, incidents are different, etc etc etc. There have been many a firefighter that has come onto the job doing such things. Then they get overwhelmed when the number of runs they get is from 10-20 a year to sometimes 10-20 a day.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Having done the volunteer thing for many years, I realized that this is what I wanted to do as a career. I was already a proffessional (has nothing to do with money). I have a lot of respect for volunteers that train and know the job. In my area we are constantly requesting M/A from the volunteers around us.(we're the only FD with paid staff and we're a combo). Some days they show up with 6-7 guys, other days 2-3. We cannot count on many of these dept. to provide adequate numbers. We found out that at a recent fire a M/A Co. had a new member in SCBA working in the building with no formal SCBA training. TYhis is unacceptable. Is there animosity? Not really. Just a need for adequate numbers of trained personnel. I know many volunteers that I'd trade for a few career "professionals", any day.

All this being said we have also had City Councilors ask us why we couldn't be an all vol. dept.? If there were a bunch of dedicated volunteers, maybe we could (2300-2500 runs/yr). One even said,"look at how they do it on L.I." I can't wait to see him again and say, "Yeah, look at L.I. !!!" So it is hard to not have some disdain for the volunteers when your governing body sees them as a way to reduce staff. Just like in EMS, everyone is a paramedic, they think all firefighters are the same.

[firecapt32 282]

Leave egos at the door men!!! we are here to protect the public the best way we can, and the best way is to be trained.

The question should be why are there 2 standards. One for the volunteer departments, one for the career departments. Heres my answer like it or not, the leadership of the volunteer organizations are stuck in the past. Sorry guys but it aint 1955 its 2005 the good old days arent around any more.

Chiefs and Officers are still being elected in some departments not by their qualifications.

Ther is no reason for the volunteer service here in New York State, when it comes to the public, to be any different from the career standard.

Sorry to ramble but lets get on the same page-- forget vol/paid --- set a standard and every one live up to it.

[Guest ksneubec]

All of this is really a shame. I don't care if you are career or volunteer, you will find troublemakers in both types of departments.

I was down in Mississippi for almost 7 weeks, working as FEMA Firefighter Operations Branch I Group 2 Supervisor for the Katrina response. I had about 100 firefighters underneath my command- both volunteer and paid. With the exception of one or two bad apples, ALL of them made me very proud! I couldn't help but form assumptions about some of them before I got to know them well, as to whether they were career or volunteer, but I quickly discovered that with everyone acting so professional, I could no longer tell who was who.

I learned a lot about what career and volunteer firefighters could do together when their status was not so easily known or such a big factor in people's minds . . . . I hope that all of us who went down there can bring these lessons back home and teach those who remain ignorant in both volunteer and career departments.

[JN352 0]

Lets not play games here... I am a volunteer in an all volunteer company with paid dept's on one side and vollies on the other. I live in this town and I want to protect my family and the families of my town with the best possible fire protection I can, however the career I have chosen is as a Firefighter and I get paid to protect the families of the city I work in. I have the benefit of seeing both sides of the coin... not everyone does.

There is some animosity between these two groups and anyone who says different is either not being honest or doesnt know what they are talking about. The reasons are typically union related and the complaints as long as I have been around come from a small group of career firfighters usually bashing the abilities and or "unprofessionalism" of vollies. Is this so far from the truth? In some parts yes and in others no. Vollies vollunteer for many varied reasons, but typically they want to be the best they can, but its tough, we as vollunteers have jobs and families and it is difficult to manage our time between the many parts of your life. Career firefighters have it easy in the sense that it is their job to train and they get the time (during working hours) and money to be a proffessional firefighter. With that said i am going to repeat what many have already said on this topic..... This is 2005, no longer are the days of partying and drinking in the firehouse as a vollie, we as vollunteers cannot expect that we will be viewed in the eyes of career firefighters as equals if we dont train ourselves in a way that meets the requirements of the most stringent departments training standards and act in a way that fits what we are doing.... SAVING LIVES. Just because we are Volunteers does not mean we cannot be professional. Keep this in mind whatever you do as a volunteer on or off duty. As a career firefighter we cannot be blinded by the stereotype of a volunteer. Look at what your surrounding departments have to offer. More often than not you will find a dedicated group of people who are willing to do what it takes to get the job done and lets face it career brothers whether you like it or not, when it comes down to it we all want to accomplish the same thing ... the best job possible. Dont get sucked into the the bullshit about unions and vollies taking jobs away from us, that fear as mentioned by others is a two way street and as the current situation goes no paid jobs in this area are going to be lost to vollies anytime in the near future. If anything it will be the other way around so lets give the vollies a chance to prove themselves, and vollies lets step up to the plate and act like the proffesionals we are and can be and get the job done!

[Guest]

You know what really cracks me up about this issue.....How many of these DIE-HARD career union firefighters were volunteers in the same department prior to gettin a paycheck. There are tons of them.

You knew darn well what type of department you were hired to be part of prior to gettin there. Grant it, if you do not have a volunteer response then the various town councils should address the sitaution, if not, work diligently with the volunteers who protect the communities. If you are professional and career, act accordingly. If people channeled all this negative energy they have in a positive direction, there would no BS hostility.

Its all about the PUBLIC, men and women..not individual agendas!!!

[DOC22 1]

You know what really cracks me up about this issue.....How many of these DIE-HARD career union firefighters were volunteers in the same department prior to gettin a paycheck. There are tons of them. 

You knew darn well what type of department you were hired to be part of prior to gettin there.  Grant it, if you do not have a volunteer response then the various town councils should address the sitaution, if not, work diligently with the volunteers who protect the communities.  If you are professional and career, act accordingly.  If people channeled all this negative energy they have in a positive direction, there would no BS hostility.

Its all about the PUBLIC, men and women..not individual agendas!!!

←

WELL PUT , Florian! I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Guest]

The way I see it is that we are all one brotherhood fighting for the same cause. Therefore there should be no animocity at all, unfortunately there always will be because of all the egos and different mindsets. As far as training goes we all should be held to the same minimum standards, and all of us should go well beyond the minimum standards. As mentioned before, the people who's property we save don't care whether you're career of volunteer, just as long as when they call 911 someone is coming to help them.

[Guest]

all can say that is I have been a volly for about 7years and also am on the career side my biggest issue on either side is the vollies who make the minimum number of required events be it alarms drills, or meetings and are the 1st ones to want medical reimbursements, or dinner committees or social events. while that money can be better spent on the safety and training of the more active members who are working full or part time or going to school, who break their buts to make most of the calls in their district. I have the utmost respect for those who go above and beyond to be vollies and make a living lets face it most do it to be part of the brother hood they one day hope to join as Career ff's or they do it case they had the misfortune of not being hired or offered a career position but bottom line they do it for love of the job.

Also as Firecapt32 says should their be different standards? Why do career FF's need 229 hours of training and vollies need about 78 hours I believe is FF1? Given they are giving up their time to take these classes, but I don’t think FF1 is enough for you to be going into a burning building. many depts. require survival and Fast but even still those should be minimums, they should have to continue their training maybe in increments but truck ops, hazmatt, evoc, pump ops, all important classes especially in all vollie depts. lets face it your citizens rely on you even if you committee your drill nights to make those state courses maybe take 4 hours on a drill night and for 4 weeks do a state class? What’s wrong with that? given I know there is a certain time window a course must be done in by the state, but still find ways to work things out and keep training, stay safe, and use the money for firematic reasons and take care of those guys who go above and beyond maybe a plaque or maybe a new flash light for making over a certain number of calls, honor those guys and don’t let those people who make the bare minimum ruin what the majority of you who are probably the minority in your dept who make a ton of calls do.

many career FF's are also vollies they do this caz they love their jobs and can’t get enough of it and lets face it its their living so why not spend as much time responding as you can, its the only way you learn aside form taking classes, taking state classes can teach you alot but there is nothing like getting out there and applying what you learned, also a vollie depts ways mixed with ur career depts ways may be different it helps you live and learn new perspectives.

Also the last issue I pose is a question, how do we all feel about depts with paid drivers or maybe 3 or four career FF’s who have to answer to a chief or officer who is a vollie? The problem is not that they are a vollie, the problem is that they haven’t gone through 14 weeks of the academy and 229 hours of training and these other FF’s have I don’t see that as right or makes the most sense with regards to the safety of the citizens

and like we all said were out there to protect citizens, lets not have some bad apples ruin it, all the while all I can say is keep training and put the money to use for training and equipment, not trips and dinners n social crap.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Wow, i was staying away from this topic for awhile because i figured it would turn out to be an all-out volly vs. career bash fest! I am so glad to see that i was wrong and that educated, mature conversations have been taking place! Bravo to those who have replied to this topic soo far!

I have read all the replies on this topic and was pleased with all of them! Everyone had great input, thoughts and concerns. First off, hats off to JN352 for one hell of a relply! That was one awesome reply brother! I was impressed that you not only admitted to being a volunteer & career FF (sometimes guys don't like to mention that), but you also made great points for both sides!

Now, for my reply lol; Let me start off by saying that i am a volunteer firefighter with approximately 7 years in the fire service. I am NOT a career FF, but have absoutely nothing against career FF's in any way! I have many friends who are on the job in various towns & cities and we get along very well. I have friends who are on the job and we can bust each others chops non-stop, but in the end, we all share mutual respect for one another. Before i got hired at my current job, i too was taking civil service exams for firefighter positions. I happen to like my current job (mainly because of the $$$ & benefits), so i have not taken any exams in quite some time. However, i may decide to take some in the future and if anything come's up, i have the option to take it. My point is that i love the fire service and if i could get paid for being a firefighter, even better! I joined the volunteer fire service because many of my family members were/are volunteer FF's. I saw what they did/do and had respect for it and knew that as soon as i was of age, i too would join. At that time, i didn't know much about the fire service and never considered it as a career path. It may sound cliche, but i got involved in the fire service because of my family, but more so because i wanted to help my community and get involved.

As some of you have stated, instead of bashing one another, we should be trying to get on the same page! After all, aren't we all trying to accomplish the same goals? Speaking for myself, i am constantly trying to better myself as a FF. I take as many courses & seminars as i can fit into my schedule! I even like to take courses on things that i may think i will never need to know, because in the fire service you never do know what to expect! Unfortunately, i can only speak for myself and many FF's don't share that same way of thinking. If i could go through the career academy, that would be great! I think it would be an awesome opportunity for me, not to mention a good challenge! Unfortunately, i wouldn't be able to fit it into my schedule, not would my dept. pay for it and i'm not even sure if it would be allowed? That would be something that the County/State could try and work on. Devise an academy, equal to that of the career one, but make it accessible to volunteers. In other words, conduct it a few nights a week and also utilize Saturdays. Obviously it would be much longer than the daytime career academy, but it would be fair. Is this a reasonable goal, i can't say, but just a thought i had.

Getting back to the main issue, career/volly hostility. Is there hostility between the two groups, sure there is! As someone else stated, if we all said there wasn't, we'd be lying and or ignorant! Its out there, we all know it, but lets try and stop some of it if we can! Again, we're all out there trying to accomplish the same things; to protect life and property when we are called upon!

antiquefirelt...you stated that "I know many volunteers that I'd trade for a few career "professionals", any day." Is this to say that volunteers can not be just as good or as professional as career FF's? I'm not trying to start a fight with you, just making a statement. I'm sure there are some career FF's out there that aren't all that professional. I'm sure it could be the other way around in that some vollunteers could be better than some career FF's. I've probably just opened up a big can of worms and i'm sure someones panties are twisted reading this, but why can't it be that way? And i will agree, there are plenty of volly FF's out there who don't have adequit training and probably shouldn't be considered firefighters to begin with. However, these are issues that individual departments must deal with.

As i have said, i have nothing against career FF's and have friends on the job. My department got the chance to train with a local combination department not to long ago. The training session was an all day affair and was conducted at an aquired structure. We trained in areas of search & rescue, FAST op's and ladder/roof op's. In one scenario, i was paired up with a career FF and i'll admit i was a little intimidated and wasn't sure what to expect. We were instructed to enter the structure and locate a downed FF. Not only did we get the job done, but we did it as a team and had great communications. When we got outside, we stopped to talk about everything and even had a few laughs! Why do i share this story with all of you? Just to show that it shouldn't matter whether or not you're career or volunteer, we should all have the same overall goals!

Lets try and remember that we are all in this brotherhood of firefighting together! When there is a job to get done, lets get it done and not worry whos a volly and whos career!

For us volunteer FF's, lets try and keep up to date with our training so we can be the best we can be! For our brother career FF's, may you all keep fresh on your skills as well!

And to everyone in the fire service, train as if your life depends on it, because guess what? IT DOES!

Most importantly, stay safe everyone!

Edited November 21, 2005 by BFD1054

[HFD23 37]

well put brother, and their probably are some vollies who may make even better career FF's then some Career FF's are just as it can be the some career FF's are better then some vollies. they key is how much you get out there and learn and how you apply what you learn. good luck to all i'd like to hear more what others have to say on this topic and keep it going in the respectfull manner it has been.

[DMA327 12]

HFD summoned it up:

Its all about training and maintaining the training you've learned and applying it to the real world. If you think you know everything, it's time to quit!

Edited November 22, 2005 by DMA327

[4truck48 25]

This forum should not be about individual firerighters, volunteer or paid. It should be about the service your DEPARTMENT provides. If your department can't put enough properly trained manpower on the scene, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year within 4-5 minutes then you have a problem. This is the problem no one wants to address. How often do you read in this web site a residential house fire takes 7 departments and 100 firefighters to extinguish. A chief arrives on the scene in three minutes but the first engine takes eight minutes and then you have to tone out for additional manpower. Which is better a properly trained paid, or volunteer firefighter, should not be the issue. Giving the citizens the fire protection they deserve is the issue.

[Guest]

This forum should not be about individual firerighters, volunteer or paid. It should be about the service your DEPARTMENT provides. If your department can't put enough properly trained manpower on the scene, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year within 4-5 minutes then you have a problem. This is the problem no one wants to address. How often do you read in this web site a residential house fire takes 7 departments and 100 firefighters to extinguish. A chief arrives on the scene in three minutes but the first engine takes eight minutes and then you have to tone out for additional manpower.  Which is better a properly trained paid, or volunteer firefighter, should not be the issue. Giving the citizens the fire protection they deserve is the issue.

←

AMEN BROTHER!

[HFD23 37]

4truck48 your 100% correct thats the real issue how ever the question was is there hostiliy or do volunteers and career FF's get along?

your point is dead on and should be the end result and main goal of any firefighter or department . how ever no matter where you go there will always be some sorts of minor tension this being mostly those few people on either side who give each side a bad name and forget that their main role is that of public saftey and that no matter who gets off that rig in those 3-5 minutes as long as that goal is done so with highly trained personel who mitigate the incident who cares

with both sides there are those vollies who are in it for the perks and make the bare minimun, and there are some career FF's who had a lucky saturday and do it for the money.

but one must take into account that there are those who loose the whole picture on each side and thats where any sort of conflict comes from.

[Remember585 815]

I wasn't going to jump in, but I do have a few thoughts I'd like to share.

Manpower = big issue, no difference if it is in a paid or volunteer environment. I can't speak for outside Westchester County, but in our happy little wasteland, the almighty politicians would rather piss money into parks nobody uses, playgrounds that see more drug activity then children playing and new "Welcome to Putz Town" signs then protection for the residents. To the best of my knowledge, none of Westchester's fully career Departments, with maybe the exception of Yonkers, has enough personnel and equipment to hold thier own for 90% of their runs. I'm not blaming the FD's by any means, I just think it's a slap in the face to all of the lower WC Departments to be expected to provide flawless, top of the line protection day in/ day out with the bare minimum. Come on Joe Politician, put some money into your community's front line responders.

In volly land, where I spend my time, our biggest issue is manpower as well. Every Department is too shy to step up to the plate and admit their problems. Anyone that does should be commended. Aside from pointing out the problems - what else are you doing to correct it? Membership drives - they're about 50% useless in my opinion. If you take in 6 new members in 2005, I bet only 3 will prove useful and be there in 2006. Incentives? How about helping your community and being a part of a proud heritage, nevermind the tax breaks, LOSAPs and other benefits. Those of us that joined "yester-year" knew we were getting nothing in return and that is still fine by us. I joined in 1996, after 2 years as a Probie, knowing that my only reward would be the memories I have and the lives I've been able to help.

Its been said here a few times - why do we have seperate training standards for paid and volunteer? Answer - time! Career Firefighters are expected to complete 100 hours of in-service training per year - which, if you think about it, is only one month's worth of shifts. (Obviously one has to sleep and occassionally take in a run) Volunteers are required to, um, well that varies district to district, doesn't it? If we were required to do 100 hours per year, which I think isn't too much, we could do it in 2 hours per week, roughly. Think about how much time we piss away at meetings, parades, cleanups and other BS functions. I think the top dogs of FASNY, WCVFA and all the other "organizations" should work together to set a new mark for us to meet. I think it would be more benficial to our public then say, spending time and money on the blue light law?!

I have friends and family on both sides of the fence. In most cases, all of them take pride in what they do and do it professionally, regardless of a paycheck. Most of them spend time learning more. I also know many, mnay career firefighters that do the same. If you do this job, paid or not, you should always further your knowledge until you finally give this sh!t up. Is there hostility, yes, and it's because those that take pride in what they do get fed up with the shadows that do nothing, but run their mouths.

Rant over. Happy Turkey Day!

[Guest NYTruckie]

I wasn't going to jump in, but I do have a few thoughts I'd like to share.

  Membership drives - they're about 50% useless in my opinion. 

←

So your a glass is half empty kind of guy.

I got into EMS for the Money

[ajsbear 11]

I don't remember in which thread he said it but FireDapt32 said it all in one work, "STANDARDS." It's time the state and counties stepped up and put in standards and force the departments to adhear to them. Standards in minimum training both on County and Department levels, officers too should have taken specific courses before they are allowed to be an officer and additional classes to stay an officer and more as he or she moves up the ranks.

Some departments hold weekly drills and weekly lceanups to check over equiptment. Some monthly drills. While 100 hours may be too much time for many voulunteers today with the other demands on our lives even a requirement of at least 60 should be in place of a combination of classes from the state list and departmental drills. A 50/50, half from each. This may overburden the training center a little but the CFI's and SFI's I know are on the most part up to it. We have a greeat training center and if someone wants to maintain an INTERIOR status, 60 hours is nothing. One thing we need to add REFRESHER courses as well. Get everyone up to the same level. This way if an dwhen you need M/A you know what you are getting.

[NJFDPLFC5 0]

I will now add my 2 cents as a two hatters as some call me I do both . I have found that most of the hostility is by ignorence by both sides. On the volly side I hate the departments who only let their members complete FF1 and that is it they then ride the wave or the next 25 years and they know nothing. Along the piad side I hate hearing that volly stole jobs.I only know of one department who went back to volunteers after dispanding the Paid department and that was because the town did not have any runs to support the paid personell and when they retired they did not replace them. Once you add career firefighters you will only add more in the future not less. As per the people who get hired and always say well on my department we did this I say that is nice but that is not here so you are a probie so shut up and keep your eyes open along with your ears and nothing else.