LI vollies-incentives to join

[Guest]

Newsday reports that many volunteer fd's are now offering financial

incentives to join. In some cases pensions are being paid and in others

custodians are being hired and expected to drive apparatus and

to fight fires. Essentially, Newsday points out that these guys are low paid

firefighters. Many paid guys consider this union busting.

Edited November 16, 2005 by giants

[4truck48 25]

I don't know if it's just " the paid guys" who are questioning the financial incentives. As a resident I would question at what point you should stop being considered a volunteer. If your getting financial compensation then your not volunteering. The training standards and physical requirements then come into play. Not to mention response times and officer qualifications. Some of the budgets out there are higher for a volly dept then they are for the combo depts. in Westchester.

[Guest]

THe articles focus on Long Island, but are there similiar practices in Westchester?

I know of a few volunteer dept's that pay small pensions, but is this more

widespread than I think? Also, as for the practice of hiring custodians to be ff's,

I know of only one incident in Westchester in recent history that this has occured

(Purchase,I think) are there others?

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

Union busting or not, at least these guys are making an effort to get the trucks out the door quickly. You have to give them credit for that.

On the same token…

When it gets to the point where you have to offer financial incentives, or hire “custodians†to cover your calls; I think its time to consider your options before the community does it for you.

You can consider the possibilities of career chuffers, paid-on-call firefighters, paid-per-call firefighters, manning the first due apparatus with career staff while the rest of the dept is still volunteer, or just going full career.

The thing you have to remember while you are attempting to preserve your department’s tradition of being all volunteer is:

You primary objective is to preserve life and property.

On another note…

(From the Newsday article)

"It is the biggest firehouse on Long Island, a $7.7-million, 39,000-square-foot headquarters with spacious offices, a gym with a tiki-themed juice bar, party rooms lavished with ornate moldings, tile mosaics and stained glass, and vast truck bays whose teal-and-peach-tinted concrete floors match the building's carpets. It is for members only."

In a word… WHY?

Although it may sound fun, do you realize what kind of resources you can purchase with $7.7 million?

Some FDNY houses were built prior to 1900. The stations are falling apart, various things do not work…but they function fine.

[TSull 33]

Union busting or not, at least these guys are making an effort to get the trucks out the door quickly.  You have to give them credit for that.

On the same token…

When it gets to the point where you have to offer financial incentives, or hire “custodians” to cover your calls; I think its time to consider your options before the community does it for you.

You can consider the possibilities of career chuffers, paid-on-call firefighters, paid-per-call firefighters, manning the first due apparatus with career staff while the rest of the dept is still volunteer, or just going full career.

The thing you have to remember while you are attempting to preserve your department’s tradition of being all volunteer is:

You primary objective is to preserve life and property.

On another note…

(From the Newsday article)

"It is the biggest firehouse on Long Island, a $7.7-million, 39,000-square-foot headquarters with spacious offices, a gym with a tiki-themed juice bar, party rooms lavished with ornate moldings, tile mosaics and stained glass, and vast truck bays whose teal-and-peach-tinted concrete floors match the building's carpets. It is for members only."

In a word… WHY?

Although it may sound fun, do you realize what kind of resources you can purchase with $7.7 million? 

Some FDNY houses were built prior to 1900.  The stations are falling apart, various things do not work…but they function fine.

←

Making an effort to "get the trucks out the door". That is interesting. When was the last time a shiny red fire engine or truck put out a fire? You can have all the apparatus in the world lined up in the street but the fire does not go out without motivated, well trained people doing the job, paid or volunteer. As far as departments hiring "custodians" or"janitors": I know several guys who work as "custodians", it just so happens in order to be hired as a "custodian", the position requires that you have FF1,FF2, Haz-Mat Ops, ICS, CFR-D or EMT-D, EVOC, and a couple other state certifications. It's the departments way around civil service, the town's way around paying FF's, and the guys way of saying they are paid FFs.

As was asked before: what is the town's and the department's primary mission?

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

First, making an effort to get the trucks out the door is better then completely ignoring the problem as some departments / municipalities do. I do not disagree that apparatus can’t fight a fire by itself… but at the same time… if you can get at least a few firefighters at the scene, you could at least complete your initial attack.

Secondly, I am well aware of what some departments that have custodian-firefighters require for the position. But doesn’t it seem to you that hiring custodian-firefighters is like plugging a hole in a dam with your finger? Will a set-up like that work forever?

[Guest]

"it just so happens in order to be hired as a "custodian", the position requires that you have FF1,FF2, Haz-Mat Ops, ICS, CFR-D or EMT-D, EVOC, and a couple other state certifications. It's the departments way around civil service, the town's way around paying FF's, and the guys way of saying they are paid FFs"

Those guys are SCABS.

SIMPLY BLOCKING PAID FIREFIGHTER POSTIONS

[IzzyEng4 427]

"it just so happens in order to be hired as a "custodian", the position requires that you have FF1,FF2, Haz-Mat Ops, ICS, CFR-D or EMT-D, EVOC, and a couple other state certifications. It's the departments way around civil service, the town's way around paying FF's, and the guys way of saying they are paid FFs"

Those guys are SCABS.

SIMPLY BLOCKING PAID FIREFIGHTER POSTIONS

←

So dog, not starting the paid vs. vollie thing, but do you concider vols who get a tax break are scabs too??????

[X615 0]

springdale fire co in stamford had the same setup for years, calling their guys "housemen" before a series of fatal fires in the mod 80's when they finally caved in & hired career drivers, then firefighters before ultimately merging their guys into stamford fire rescue giving them a 4 man engine co. springdale was the last to see the benefits of having a combination dept and it was because their "old timer" management didn't want to deal with the iaff & contracts etc wanting to still be able to hire & fire at will. those guys were hopelessly stuck in the 50's until a few fires that were just disasters forced them to change and when the finally relented they were much better off for it. anyone from the area old enough should remember what used to go on.

[KCRD 6]

"So dog, not starting the paid vs. vollie thing, but do you concider vols who get a tax break are scabs too??????"

I believe these guys are scabs. The only thing a vollie shoud recieve is the satisfaction of helping the community. Anyway you look at it, once you recieve incentives of any kind, you are no longer a volunteer. You are just poorly paid.

[Guest]

Newsday should come to westchester and take a look at the fire service here...In particular actually show the public, the taxpayers, how their money is spent.

Id like to see an honest representation of what the firefighters in this county do...both career and volunteer....

For the volunteer..... your apparatus, your training, your quarters

For the career... How many responses do you do on duty....what do you actually train on? When you are not responding..what are you doing in your respective stations on your day tour...your night tour...

Lets actually take a look at what each department does on a Daily basis.............Alarms, medical runs, training, inspections, house and apparatus maintenance, manpower.....and most importantly what does the manpower DO when they get to the scene of a fire or emergency...

No bashing allowed...just honesty ..... IT MIGHT QUIET DOWN ALOT OF PEOPLE

[CAM502 6]

Newsday should come to westchester and take a look at the fire service here...In particular actually show the public, the taxpayers, how their money is spent.

Id like to see an honest representation of what the firefighters in this county do...both career and volunteer....

For the volunteer..... your apparatus, your training, your quarters

For the career... How many responses do you do on duty....what do you actually train on? When you are not responding..what are you doing in your respective stations on your day tour...your night tour...

Lets actually take a look at what each department does on a Daily basis.............Alarms, medical runs, training, inspections, house and apparatus maintenance, manpower.....and most importantly what does the manpower DO when they get to the scene of a fire or emergency...

No bashing allowed...just honesty ..... IT MIGHT QUIET DOWN ALOT OF PEOPLE

←

So, in your opinion, what is an honest representation??

[firebuff860 54]

Combo dept, 3 engines ladder, light recue. All interior FF's must be minimum FF1, train 3X per month to exceed OSHA requirements. Most active volunteers also have HMAT FR, Safety and Survival and FAST. Career training depends on duty officer working that tour.

[BmSmall92 1]

They did that report back in Dec 1998. The Journal News had a two or three day series that made everyone look bad with a similar style to the Newsday article. The only department that came out relatively unscathed was Yonkers.

[IzzyEng4 427]

"So dog, not starting the paid vs. vollie thing, but do you concider vols who get a tax break are scabs too??????"

I believe these guys are scabs.  The only thing a vollie shoud recieve is the satisfaction of helping the community.  Anyway you look at it, once you recieve incentives of any kind, you are no longer a volunteer.  You are just poorly paid.

←

Poorly paid?!?!? you have to be kidding. I get an incentive of a tax break because the aldermenr in my town, no of which at the time initiated it had a releative or were themself a volunteer, implimented it as saying thank you. I tell you it is not much at all.

As for a scab, being a UNION brother myself, non-fire related, you have to look at the definition.

A "scab" is someone who is non union, hired by an employer to replace a unionized worker. That replacement receives a set hourly pay scale for his / her work for any given period or time (no offense to the people who work in non union shops, you are not a scab.)

Now we can go further with comparisons. Not for nothing guys but check out the other AFL-CIO sites such as CWA, you know Verison's union, or AFSME read up. As for IAFF, the only ones you should be woried about id Rural/Metro. Remember them? Hmmmmmmmmm think now.

And if you want to talk about negotiations, come ask me, be there, done that, got the shirt.

I'll be quite for now.

[antiquefirelt 994]

In our area the "vollies" are actually paid per call and training. There are very few fully volunteer depts. The level of training depends on the department. Some have a shoestring budget and make the most of it, others like to drive big red trucks with lights on them. Most of the "vol. F.D.s" in our area have a very small (less than $50K) annual budget. They must ask the community to replace traucks as needed and are still raked over the coals for not stretching that 32 yr. old truck just a little further. Every day the number of volunteers shrinks. Less time, increased costs and more training mandates (not all good). I'm sorry but it's a little ridiculous to force volunteers who work 40-50+ hours a week at one job to have all the diversity training, sexual harassment training, BBP, infection control and other new age crap when their time is precious. As a society we're pricing ourselves out of volunteerism with too much worry of liability and offending someone. Look at the FEMA firefighter teams responding to Katrina.

My dept. is a combination of paid and part paid call firefighters. We run 2300-2500 calls a year. 3 Engines, 1 Aerial, 3 ALS ambulances, 1 Squad, 2 utility vehicles. We have 18 fulltime personnel and about 12-14 active part time "volunteers". Budget is just over $1 million.

Training: All Career personnel: FF I+II, EMT-I min., Haz-Mat Tech, Confined Space Tech., High/Low Angle certified.

Call firefighters: start with a pulse. Must meet same physical as career. Must come to training and be an asset. The hard part is running two different training schedules that meet the needs of both well trained and under trained personnel. Trying to accomplish this without making the "volunteers" feel as if there are two sets of standards and two distinct divisions is tough. That is probably part of the decline in our call firefighters. Its just the way it is. The career personnel go to more calls (alot more) train on duty, and most feel the fire service is a way of life not a hobby or social club. Many volunteers are like minded but work other jobs and need to have family time too.

[Guest]

Newsday never tapped into the sometimes un-publicized fact that many incorporated villages and towns have municipal workers who respond on alarms during the work day.

Some villages are more friendly twords this than others. Theres a village that has a unwritten rule that if there is a working fire, sanitation workers are allowed to leave the garbage truck to respond to the alarm. In another village the municipal mechanics often take the "spare pickup" to alarms lights and sirens to their respective houses. They're all union workers by the way. This has been going on for the past 20 years plus. Daytime alarms have always been attended "lightly".