TL Vs. LT-Apparatus Designations

[RWC130 594]

BFD you mean TL8 right? It's a TOWER LADDER!!

haha

[Guest DFFD227]

I dont understand why it says LT8?...Can someone explain this?

[BFD1054 1,552]

Hey now....don't everybody get all on me about this LT8 stuff lol. If it were up to me, they'd be Ladder 8 like every one else does it. Thier guys just still insist on signing on "LT8 responding" so thats why i put it. RWC130.....Peekskill has a Tower Ladder and they sign on Ladder-45, so maybe they can pass it on lol. I am impressed w/Verplanck, they sign on Ladder-46. I remember when they still had the Snorkle and refussed to call it anything different. 60 Control used to get soo mad, but ya gotta give them credit for sticking with it lol. But for DFFD227, sorry man, can't answer your question. I have yet to hear anyone use the term Ladder-8, and i don't know if i ever will. Its something they've always used and it stuck i guess. I really don't know why someone hasn't stopped them....i mean all Westchester Depts. use the "Ladder" designation. You don't hear the career depts (or anyone else for that matter) using "Truck" all the time, so its no different. I mean, i'm in no way "bashing" them for using that term, i'm just surprised it hasn't been stopped. IMO, i really don't care all that much, as long as i know i have a ladder company coming to me, thats all that matters to me lol.

[Remember585 815]

DFFD - the reason behind the "Tower Ladder" and "Ladder Tower" confusion is really simple.

A "Ladder Tower" is an aerial device with a bucket, that also has a "full use" ladder to climb as well. A "Ladder Tower" can be found in Montrose, Croton, Peekskill, etc.

A "Tower Ladder" is an aerial devce with a bucket that also has an "emergncy/escape ladder". A "Tower Ladder" can be found in Bedford Hills, Dobbs Ferry, Verplanck, etc.

The reason Montrose calls it a "LT-8" not a "TL-8" is because they are correct with the description. However, the county follows an NFPA guideline for apparatus designations, hence the "Ladder" and "Tower Ladder" designations we all have.

If anyone has more input, please say so.

[Guest DFFD227]

So basically a rear mount "tower ladder" is a ladder tower? and a mid mount tower ladder, is a tower ladder?

[DRD 0]

I dont believe that is necessarily so, DFFD. I think it has something to do with the height of the handrails on the ladder portion of either the ladder tower or tower ladder, if there is in fact a difference. Like it was said before, one is a an escape ladder, short handrails, and one is for ascending and descending, higher rails. Where the base happens to be mounted I dont think is of any significance. If I am wrong, please correct....

Also, would you call your truck co. apparatus Aerialscope 1 or Telesquirt 1, if it had no aerial "ladder" at all?

DRD

[x635 4,066]

Also, would you call your truck co. apparatus Aerialscope 1 ?    

DRD

Worcester did, LOL!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Actually, BFD its not a good reason nor does it make sense. Its just another case of do whatever the hell you want in Westchester. Does it really matter whether is called TL or LT? Not in my boat, know your resources. Mohegan has a telesquirt that was TS-3 and when the county started the we only are going to have this and that designations they switched to engine 250. And yes Peekskill does mark up as TL-45, that I don't have a problem with, even if Verplank marked up TL-46. It wasn't that big of a deal with Peekskill because they kept the same number despite switching aerial types. This also came to a head when the county told ambulances that they would have to use the 3 digit plus 1 letter designation, ie 75b1, 88b1, 69b1 and so on. One FD in the same area continued to use the "Ambulance #" because "we don't care, we always used that and we're still gonna. Basically they stopped when no one would answer them right away or wouldn't return the favor and called them by ##B1. Perhaps if some of us fought for equality in equipment, training, communication with the same vigor as someone with work problem spilling over into the volunteer fire service things wouldn't be as bad as they are. And I'm not bashing that Chief either, just making a point of how much support he got (which is great for those whom decided to stand with him). I figured I better point that out before that got misread.

[Guest resqstuff]

All this nonsense about what is a tower ladder and what is a ladder tower is irrelevant to anything. The bottom line is - that every department when designating apparatus of any kind and signing that equipment on the air (responding to a call) needs to use the county designation. I have never in my 10 years as a volunteer or 4 years working at fire control heard an incident commander request a ladder tower instead of a tower ladder. The term "tower ladder" in this county is a standard for a "bucket" as a "ladder" is a universal term for a straight stick. What are departments going to start naming the apparatus? Freightliner 51 or Smeal 35, Mack 119, etc... That is idiotic. At a time when the county is trying to gain some sort of control of a county wide radio system that is out of control ALL departments need to use the correct assigned designations for equipment.

[x635 4,066]

As I've said before, an Engine should be an Engine, a Ladder a Ladder etc. Whether it is a tower or SS, it should be able to perform the job of a truck company. Since there is a ton of TL's in the WC here, IC's should know what they are requesting without having to refer to the name, which I will expand on in a moment.

There should be, IMO, some clarification to the designation system in this county I.E. Adding a Cascade Desgination, and unifying ALL L's and TL's to a single truck desgination. Yes, I do mean "Truuck #". I personally feel this would consitently remind people in this county that it is a truck and their purpose is truckwork. When some people say ladder, they get tunnelvision and seem to think only of the stick on top and nothing else. Not to mention it would be a heck of alot buffier,lol.

As for a single Truck designation, IC's should know what type of apparatus they are requesting, and if they don't, then they should not be IC. (within a normal scale incident)

For "non-conformists", who do whatever they want on the radio system, that shows lack of respect for everyone. For a County that should be showing a drive to work together, not conforming to a set countywide standard only drives people further apart, and creates more confusion. I've had people say "It's really no big deal". I feel it kinda is. It, IMO, sets off a chain of events. If one person starts doing it, then it rolls downhill and control is lost.

There is absolutely no way for the county to really enforce anything, so it's basically a free-for-all.

It's fine how people wanna refer to their apparatus in person or on the rig,etc.....but to be profesional on a radio system my feeling is that conforming to a standard way of operations is the only way to do something.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Seth, as usual you make very good points and i agree with you 100%! Ladder designations definately need to be conformed to cut down on confusion. As you said, each IC should have at the very least a basic knowledge of surrounding depts apparatus. In Buchanan, we rely on Montrose for thier Truck, if they are unavailable, we go to Verplanck & so on. Our chiefs know what these depts have and thier main concern is that they get to us and do thier job! As you stated, a truck is a truck, and there are many tasks that a truck company must perform, just like an engine company. Unfortunately, one to many times i have seen truck companies "forget" thier overall tasks and they get caught up in being worried about the stick or the bucket. In Buchanan, the truck company usually isn't there for forced entry due to the fact that they are coming m/a and our engine is there first to do that. For us, we expect our m/a truck company to do the venting because it certainly makes it easier/safer for our interior attack teams. It is also nice when they set up ground ladders for us as points of egress. As far as the designations, i definately think going to "Truck" would work great. As IC, you know what your m/a company has, so it doesn't matter if its a SS or TL. For example, we need a truck, our IC requests "Truck-8." Thats simple, and hopfully as Seth stated, this will drill into these companies heads the fact that they are a "Truck" company and that they are they to perform truck work. The only time it may be an issue is when you are requiring a specific ladder (TL, SS), but again, this would go back to the IC knowing what the surrounding depts have.

[HFD23 37]

i agree that command should be able to requst and get a truck by the name ladder, how ever at certain times departments may need a straight stick, or a tower ladder for a certain task and i think 60 needs to know what is a tower, what is a ladder tower, and what is a SS, caz lets face it, it does make a difference, when u need to evacuate people from the floor above whom are traped, a ladder tower, or a stick are alittle better then the standard tower ladder that needs to go up and down to unload the bucket... each serves a different task, but i personal am a big fan of the ladder tower, it gives you the best of both worlds, i think a truck like FFD's ladder one is great because you can climb it to rescue or change crews, yo can bring required tools up to the bucket with out lowering the ladder, and it has the platform to work from and spray watter... it is much better for multitasking then a FDNY TL that requires the bucket be lowered in order to add more tools our bring rescued victums from the ground, mabe there doesn;t need to be a designation between what truck is a TL or a Lt of a SS as far as on the air but i think as a Ic and 60 control they need to know exactly what they are gettin or giveing to a IC at a working fire.

[x635 4,066]

A possible solution to keeping a single "Truck" designation and differentiating between types would be to make SS's 1-50, and Tower Ladders 50-99, or something similar.

Also, just to add on as to using a bucket to evacuate victims. I feel it's alot safer to evacuate the victims via a moving bucket then to make the people walk down the aerial, a risky thing to do, especially if it is wet/icy or you are evacuating children or the elderly. The drawback to this is you may not be able to evacuate as many victims as quick.

[Task Force 7 65]

After reading through this thread, I find interesting how the terms are used differently up there in WC. Down here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area we try to keep it simple. For instance:

1. Dallas Fire Rescue designates their apparatus as the following.

Engine: Just what it is, an Engine.

Truck: All Aerials in Dallas are straight sticks. Rearmounts, midmounts and a Tiller. (No pumps on any of them.)

Rescue: They are the Ambulances.

Red: These are the Airport Crash Trucks.

Brush: These are the Brush Trucks

Fort Worth does pretty much the same.

Engine

Truck:The Trucks in Fort Worth are 3 aerial/towers, and 1 135' straightstick.

Quint: The 75' sticks with the chrome thing in the middle.

Rescue: These are Light Rescues, Heavy Rescues, and the Airport Crash Trucks.

Squad: Is the Hazmat team.

I won't talk about Frisco. They run Quints and call them Engines. :-s

[DRD 0]

Chicago FD Squad Engines are everything in one. Engine/Pump, Rescue/Spec Ops and Truck/Articulating boom. Its an interesting concept. Not sure if I agree with it but i'm sure it gives the squad co. guys greater versatility when performing a wider variety of tasks.

http://www.firegroundphotos.net/CFDS5A070201.jpg

While were on the topic of naming conventions for apparatus, what is a squad to u? Does it depend on the personnel and how they are trained, the equipment on the rig, the apparatus itself, or SOP for their response. I always saw a typical squad to be exactly what FDNY runs. YHFD runs with that terrific Squad - E270. I think that qualifies as a Squad because from what I understand it carries a wide variety of engine/truck/rescue equipment.

What makes a squad?

[Remember585 815]

DRD - to the best of my knowledge, a Squad designation is based on a crew and its capabilities, in Westchester. FDNY bases it on the same principle, for the most part, and builds the apparatus to fill the needs of the Squad Personnel.

Hope that sheds some light on it for you.

www.engine119croton.org

[Mofire24 27]

MY BUDDY MUNSON CAN VOUCH FOR THIS SOMERS HATES CALLING THERE TOWER LADDER "TOWER LADDER 18 " ITS FUNNY CAUSE IT IS A SUTPHEN TOWER HENSE THE TOWER WITH THE BUCKET ON THE END HOWEVER I KNOW FOR A FACT RESCUE 20 WILL SAY ITS NOT A TOWER LADDER BUT WE KNOW THE OBVIOUS

[R1SmokeEater 359]

-Chicago Squads are their heavy Rescue Co.'s, they operate with 2 rigs. The first is a "chase rig" rescue type apparatus, and the second piece(link posted) is a 55' snorkel - it does not have a pump, it must be supplied by an Engine Co. They respond with both pieces on runs. Lettered as Squad-1, and snorkel as Squad-1a.

[DRD 0]

Thats interesting. I saw a picture of it in master streams at a fire and assumed it had a pump. Thanks for the info...

[TRUCK6018 50]

MY BUDDY MUNSON CAN VOUCH FOR THIS SOMERS HATES CALLING THERE TOWER LADDER  "TOWER LADDER 18 " ITS FUNNY CAUSE IT IS A SUTPHEN TOWER HENSE THE TOWER WITH THE BUCKET ON THE END HOWEVER I KNOW FOR A FACT RESCUE 20 WILL SAY ITS NOT A TOWER LADDER BUT WE KNOW THE OBVIOUS

I can vouch for it too. But a correction is needed. It's not that we hate calling it tower ladder 18, we just don't call it such.

My personal gripe is, when we send the annual apparatus inventory sheets to the county, we list it as ladder 18. The Sutphen was originally listed with the county as such. They took it upon them selves to change it to TL 18. I would like to know why other departments have their vehicles listed as ladders, such as ladder 1, 63, 71 and 75, when they fall in the same boat.

Furthermore, Westchester is one of the few municipalities that differentiates between the two. A ladder company is all about what's carried on the vehicle, not what is sitting on top of it. Example, Mt. Kisco's old ladder 43. It didn't have a ss or a tl on it. In fact it had no aerial device on it at all. But it was still a ladder truck.

The command officers in my department know the obvious along with everyone else. They know that if they need a straight stick, they can get one from Yorktown and two from Mohegan or if a TL, LT or what ever you want to call it is needed for a specific operation, one can be gotten from either Bedford Hills or Mahopac.

[DRD 0]

Example, Mt. Kisco's old ladder 43. It didn't have a ss or a tl on it. In fact it had no aerial device on it at all. But it was still a ladder truck.

For those of us who aren't familiar with the rig or its equipment, why was it called Ladder 43 if it had no aerial device? Anyone have a pic? Just curious...

DRD

[TRUCK6018 50]

For those of us who aren't familiar with the rig or its equipment, why was it called Ladder 43 if it had no aerial device?  Anyone have a pic?  Just curious...

DRD

Why was it called Ladder 43? Simply because it was a ladder truck. It carried all of the nessasary equiptment (115 feet ground ladders, tarps, lighting, etc) that a ladder truck defined by NFPA with an aerial device would, with out the aerial device. It was no different than the city service ladders FDNY had of days gone bye.

The reason Mt Kisco had it is there are too many places either inaccessable or inpractical for their Sutphen.

They have since replaced the former ladder 43 with a used Seagrave RM stick.

[RES20CUE 40]

OK, My turn-

I agree with everyone that is calling a Ladder a Ladder! That's why we call ours Ladder 18. Yes it's a Sutphen, but it is both an aerial and a tower.

In fact, where it came from in MD it was designated "Aerial Tower 18". The committee even thought of leaving that designation on it, just to make some more discussions.

The old Ladder 43 in Kisco, was what was known as a City Service Ladder, these were very popular in the 40's-60's. They are still Ladder Companies! They did not have an aerial or bucket, but they carried all the ladder company equipment, and ground ladders.

The county should designate every Ladder Company a "Ladder", period!

Whether it's a Tower Ladder, Aerial Tower, Straight Stick, City Service, Mid-mount, rear-mount, snorkel, bronto, or whatever else can be put on top of them, they all perform the same fireground function- Ladder Company.

[x635 4,066]

Whether it's a Tower Ladder, Aerial Tower, Straight Stick, City Service, Mid-mount, rear-mount, snorkel, bronto, or whatever else can be put on top of them, they all perform the same fireground function- Ladder Company.

Well said!!!!

I like the term "Ladder Tender", which is the term I always used when referring to Kisco's CST. In fact, I think the concept would still do well in the modern day WC fire service. Communities which dont exactly warrant a full-out truck company, well, at least not yet, such as Croton Falls, Vista, etc, a Ladder Tender/CST would be just right.

Also, I found this topic has been discussed a few months ago, for further insight, click here:

http://emtbravo.just5buckshosting.com/phpB...topic.php?t=318