Fire Department Numbers

[cas2383 22]

How did the system of fire department numberings start in Westchester County? By number i mean our 3 digit number such as PC 239. Anyone have any background or info how these numbers came about?

[JohnnyOV 2]

I heard through the grapevine, that its done alphabetically. someone correct me if im wrong.

[cas2383 22]

If you look at the department list it is alphabetical however where do the numbers stem from? Here are the battallion zones with dept #'s.

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/fire.htm

[JohnnyOV 2]

if you look at the entire list, not just by battlion zone, you see that there listed alphabeticly, with the det number appropriate, then as new depts formed, after the list was created, they were added on to the bottom of the list.

Edited November 9, 2005 by EMSJunkie712

[cas2383 22]

Yes, I saw that but i was wondering where they started the numbers at. Is it a statewide system handed to westchester county at 200, or did they just start there. Should be interesting to see.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I see what you mean now, and for that, I have no idea

[ja3kfd 34]

if you meen 221 for katonah or 253 for yorktown??

could not open attachment, those were done by the state.

[cas2383 22]

Yes those are the numbers i was referring to.... the 3 digit department numbers. 239, 242, 224, 221, 253, 204 ect....

[Stiles 0]

I believe that they were designated by civil defense. Unsure of how they came up with that numbering scheme though.

[cas2383 22]

Hmmm interesting

[dadbo46 50]

Don't make this more difficult than what it really is.

The department numbers are in alphabetical order as originally determined by the Westchester County Fire Chiefs Emergency Plan circa 1940. The original County Fire Control was at White Plains FD HQ.

The number "2" was selected because, phonetically speaking, it has a harder sound to it but and it is easier to hear than to say a "one."

...and so it goes.....

Edited November 11, 2005 by dadbo46

[ems-buff 81]

If you look at the department list it is alphabetical however where do the numbers stem from?  Here are the battallion zones with dept #'s.

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/fire.htm

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This is what i found on the website as far as department list's alphabeticaly

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/ap...tus/APP2005.pdf

[mfc2257 464]

This may be a forum hijacking..... BUT....

If you drop the "2" from the front of the 3 digit numbers, you come up with what should be the Westchester County Department Numbers for each department that should correspond to apparatus and station numbers.... I've commented on this before, and hope that someday Westchester will move away from the chaotic apparatus numbering system that is used today to a streamlined system that groups apparatus and company numbers together.

For example.... Company 208 is Croton... Drop the 2 and the department simply becomes Company 8 and thus...... Engine 8-1 (E-118) Engine 8-2 (E-119) Engine 8-3 (E-120) Rescue 8 (Rescue 18) Tanker 8 (Tanker 10) Chief 8, Assistant 8, Deputy 8, Ambulance 8A, Ambulance 8A1 Etc etc etc Not to hard to know that any apparatus that begins with 8 is from Croton

Company 225 is Millwood... Drop the 2 and the department simply becomes company 25.... Engine 25-1 (E-245) Engine 25-2 (E-247) Engine 25-3 (E-248) Rescue 25 (Rescue 36) Tanker 25 (Tanker 15) Mini Attack 10 (MA-25) Chief 25, Assistant 25, Deputy 25, etc etc etc.....

Sorry for hijacking, but I think that company numbers, which aren't currently very important with day to day operations, can streamline the fire service and the mutual aid system

Not the first time I've said it... not the last.

[JohnnyOV 2]

This may be a forum hijacking..... BUT....

If you drop the "2" from the front of the 3 digit numbers, you come up with what should be the Westchester County Department Numbers for each department that should correspond to apparatus and station numbers.... I've commented on this before, and hope that someday Westchester will move away from the chaotic apparatus numbering system that is used today to a streamlined system that groups apparatus and company numbers together.

For example.... Company 208 is Croton... Drop the 2 and the department simply becomes Company 8 and thus...... Engine 8-1 (E-118) Engine 8-2 (E-119) Engine 8-3 (E-120) Rescue 8 (Rescue 18) Tanker 8 (Tanker 10) Chief 8, Assistant 8, Deputy 8, Ambulance 8A, Ambulance 8A1 Etc etc etc Not to hard to know that any apparatus that begins with 8 is from Croton

Company 225 is Millwood... Drop the 2 and the department simply becomes company 25.... Engine 25-1 (E-245) Engine 25-2 (E-247) Engine 25-3 (E-248) Rescue 25 (Rescue 36) Tanker 25 (Tanker 15) Mini Attack 10 (MA-25) Chief 25, Assistant 25, Deputy 25, etc etc etc.....

Sorry for hijacking, but I think that company numbers, which aren't currently very important with day to day operations, can streamline the fire service and the mutual aid system

Not the first time I've said it... not the last.

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I dont think thats hijacking, it has relavence

[CPAGE 2]

Now it sounds like Rockland County. Ithink the way it is now works plus the cost it will take to change all the fronts on the helmets. If it's not broken don't try to fix it.

Also the right way would be 60-25-1 west co -millwood - eng 1. as you see dont fix it.

Edited November 11, 2005 by CPAGE

[dadbo46 50]

Technically speaking, Chris, you're absolutely correct. The "60" is implied (read...silent).

[mfc2257 464]

The cost of helmet fronts would hardly be noticable and would be the last thing anyone would think about when trying to improve communications via streamlined identifiers. In fact, the the only cost that would have to be incurred would be the technology update for the CAD and the man hours to implement. If individual companies choose to re lable their helmets or even their appratus for that matter is up to them... From a communications standpoint just because you have one thing written on your equipment doesn't mean that the people talking to you on the radio can see it.

When the topic of streamlining operations in the county, changing identifiers so that each company is unique, automatic mutual aid on certain calls, etc... people constantly say "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Nothing like 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress. The good majority of the country operates their counties on a streamlined identifier system where fire districts, stations, apparatus, box areas, and officers for each individual department correspond with the districts county assigned number for them. This allows for much cleaner orginization in the CAD and a much clearer level of communication. The way Westchester County's apparatus numbering exists now is through a disorganized system where apparatus are arbitrarily numbered based on reserving a number, tradition, politics, etc. There is no rhyme or reason to it. There are departments with multiple engines who's identifiers are over 100 numbers apart. (Thornwood has Engine #'s 88, 89, and 290 Pleasantville has #'s 90, 91, 259, 260). That should have been corrected at the county level LONG ago. There is Ladder 1 and Tower Ladder 1 in the county. They are both Tower Ladders and from different municipalities (go figure).

As far as saying that Westchester would become like Rockland, from an orginizational standpoint, that wouldn't be the worst idea. All thier companies have unique numerical identifiers. If I hear a piece of apparatus on the air that begins with an 11, there is no mistaking that its responding from Orangeburg. In Westchester Engine 11 Comes from Harrison, Ladder 11 is "Reserved for Future Use", Tower Ladder 11 Comes from New Rochelle, Squad 11 From Yonkers, Mini Attack 11 from Banksville, Utility 11 from Mohegan, Tanker 11 from Continental Village and there is no rhyme or reason. So geographically Squad 11, TL-11, and Engine 11 could easily wind up at the same job down county, and Utility 11, Tanker 11, etc could wind up at the same job upcounty, yet they are all from different companies. Thats plain backwards and can lead to confusion on a hairy job.

As for placing the county number of 60 before Westchester apparatus, that isn't necessary unless they are operating out of county. Last time I checked, in Rockland and Putnam (for examples) who have unique numerical identifiers, the apparatus do not announce the county number (44 for Rockland and 40 for Putnam) before thier apparatus numbers when communicating.

Edited November 11, 2005 by mfc2257

[CPAGE 2]

On both halfs of this is the right move but if you have a job in the lower county (mt vernon) you will mt vernon dont know the county # sorry ??-e1 then m/a from yonkers ??-e1 then new rochell ??-e1 now you have 3 engine 1's at the same job. That would be much more f@#*ed up then County engine 61 (fdmv) engine 301 (yonkers and engine 21 (nrfd) i like the old system. But thats is my 2 cents.

[x242Steve 1]

County engine 61 (fdmv)

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Engine 61 is from Port Chester...

[CPAGE 2]

Sorry it should have read e261 for mt vernon. Sorry

[Guest JQP442]

I dont realy think that it would be much more f@#*ed up. your not gonna have 3 eng1's trying to operate. New Rochelle would be 30eng1, just as it operates 30A1 and 30A2 now. It doesnt seem to be a problem with multipal EMS rigs on the road or at a job, why should it be a problem for Fire rigs?

[ajsbear 11]

Many of the other county's in NY use the dept. number sceme. Putnam, 13- is Cold Spring, 14- Continental Village, 15- is Garrison. The second set of numbers tells you what kind of rig it is. ??-1-? is someones chief. a 1-1 is the chief, 1-2 is first a**'t and so on. 2- is an engine. 2-1, 2-2- and so on. 3- is brush, 4- is Tanker, 5- ladder 6- is rescue. See where this goes? Its simple. Yes it may be confusing at first but you do get used to it. Having the dept number as part of the rig designation takes all the guess work out of it and having to memorize every number. If a department is given a designation of # 20, then 20-anything is from that department period. You don't have to worry about reserving numbers, running out or haveing an engine designated 89 and the next one 266 both from the same dept and no rime or reason behing the number.