Apparatus Riding Assignments?

[RWC130 594]

As you know most large Fire Departments both Paid and or Volunteer who have members riding the apparatus to alarms set up a roster or riding assignments. This is useful in that it keeps things organized. Once on the scene you know what your assignment is and you go to work.

With this system each firefighter has a prearranged assignment and specific duties so there is no question what the firefighter must do. This can avoid a lot of confusion on the scene as I am sure we all have experience.

As an example here is the assignments for Firefighters of the

Fire Department City of New York. ( F D N Y )

Engine Company

Officer, Chauffeur, Nozzle Man, Back Up, Door Man, Control Man.

Ladder Company

Officer, Chauffeur, Can Man, Irons, Outside Vent, Roof Man.

Rescue Company

Officer, Chauffeur, Can Man, Floor Above-Hook, Floor Above-Irons,

Roof Man

What does your department do? How well does it work?

[Remember585 815]

In Croton, our Department is OBVIOUSLY not a large department, however we do have to fill out a crew on our units prior to responding. The Engines and Tower usually roll with a crew of 4 or more, the Tanker and Rescue with 2 (sometimes, R18 has more then that). Our rigs don't have set rules for riding positions, the riding officer (Lt or Capt) will assign his/her people as needed. Generally, seniority gets you the knob, and being junior man gets you the plug......

[Guest alsfirefighter]

RWC brought up a great point and ideas, I just want to add to it a bit. And let me say up front some of the things that may be mentioned are not meant to ruffle feathers, but are my own observations, experience both ff and instructor.

Riding assignments are great, as long as you keep a realistic system to it. RWC brought up some common assignments used in a few depts. but that doesn't mean its for yours. First don't handcuff yourself, I was in a dept. where no riding assignment on our ladder was necessarily a "can man" because there were other assignments we thought were a higher priority. Secondly, for all vollie dept's, RWC's assignments are too detailed, and the fact that 2nd and 3rd due engines and the fact that you may not get a ladder fairly quickly must come into play that someone riding on an engine may end up performing truck operations. Also, I for one, am not a conformist to the max, there are some tools I prefer over others and that must come into play, irons are irons but there are some other tools that in the right hands may work better then ones "assigned." Keep in mind that for years, most training based for volunteers has been geared with doing tasks as a group, with large numbers. That is starting to change now, but many of you are trained with that theory, while many career acadamies have been training probies to do the most with the least and decisions based on thos conditions. You will often find SOG's geared towards the training and experience those writing them have.

[Guest TL38]

We do have riding assignments when needed. If there is a crew at the firehouse the Captain will assign as needed. When they arrive on the scene the Officer reports to the IC with a crew. On details ie, we mutual Aid to Nyack almost every year. Crews must be assigned prior to leaving our station house and a copy must be posted on the accountability board as well as a copy to chief IC. But normally it depends on the availabilty on firefighters.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I think that riding assignments are a good idea. It's the first line of organization on any fire call. If FF's know that certain thing must be covered when rolling out, they will be more prepared to work when they get to the scene. This give off a very professional appearance. Some things do factor into the success of this idea. One being that in the volunteer fire service your crew along with your crew members limitations vary on any given day or time, but like I said. Something is better than nothing!!!!

[BFD1054 1,552]

In Buchanan, we do not have "riding-assignments" set in place. However, if we get enough guys on a rig before it rolls, we will assign each guy a position as we respond. If we happen to be at HQ when an alarm comes in (stand-by, drill night, meeting, etc.), we try to establish riding assignments/crews prior to responding. For us, our ideal response would be for the 1st due Engine to have at least four guys (driver, officer, nozzle & b/u), but it doesn't always happen. If we have more than that on the first-due, thats even better because we can stick a guy with "pluggie" (usually the least experienced). It does get easier when we have time to plan out assignments prior to an alarm. For example, if Peekskill has a 10-75, they offten rely on us for a s/b Engine to cover. We try to give out assignments while en-route, but if not, we do it as soon as we get to the station. This works well because it cuts out the confusion (hopfully), and everyone knows thier job. Theres nothing worse than going to a call, trying to listen to the radio, the driver trying to drive and a crew of guys hollering trying to figure out what the hell they're supposed to do. But as "alsfirefighter" stated, sometimes the manpower just isn't there, especially in volunteer depts. Sometimes you have to make due with what you have, and depts. should be teaching thier guys how to deal with a situation w/less manpower. NYS is starting to realize this to it seems, because there is a class called "short-handed firefighting." Unfortunately, it was closed out last time and i was unable to get in it :sad: . Another example is our M/A Engine (E161) only has seating capacity for 3, including the driver. The additional manpower responds in a chiefs vehicle. Last August, we responded to Montrose, 3 Francis Dr. w/E161 as the 2nd due Engine. We were to lay into LT8 and also stretch a line from our rig. We were quickly en-route with a driver (ex-chief), Lt. & FF (myself). A FF had spotted the hydrant for us and also hooked it, allowing our crew to stay on the Engine. Once stopped, we hooked the 5" to LT8 and the Lt and myself stretched a hand-line while our driver manned the pump-panel. The Lt. and i were well trained and felt comfortable handling the line ourselves, which allowed our incoming manpower to be used for other jobs. I bring this example up for a reason. Riding assignments are a great idea when they are feasable. However, you must also keep in mind your crews experience/limitations when giving out riding assignments. You must also try to keep out of sticky situations, if you do not have sufficient manpower, do not try to comprimise. If you are going to give out riding assignments, make sure each member of your crew is well aware of his/her job and feels comfortable w/thier position on the crew.

BFD1054

[BFD1054 1,552]

Thank you Remember585 for clearing that up! Coming from an Engine company (Buchanan doesn't have a ladder :sad: ), I am not too familiar with ladder company specifics. I figured there was a good reason that they continued using that designation, now it all makes sense! I just kind of assumed it was the "old-timers" not conforming to the whole "ladder" designation. But thanks for the ladder info, definately interesting to know!

[RWC130 594]

The topic here is "Riding Assignments" not Tower Ladder, Ladder Tower, Quint, Quad... Whatever. You all make great points on the topic but let's stick with the question I asked.... It's very interesting to see what various departments in Westchester do.

The posts made regarding the TL vs. LT issue have been split into a new thread in the apparatus forum:

http://emtbravo.just5buckshosting.com/phpB...topic.php?t=748

Thanks Guys

[x635 4,066]

Regardless if their are assigned riding positions or not, and despite whether it is a career or volunteer department, ALL FF's on a responding apparatus should have an assigned postion/duty upon arrival.

Too many times have I seen everybody jump off a rig, and go for a nozzle,or Hurst tool, while other tasks are neglected. Not only does this lead to accountability issues, but also leads to a disorganized, chatotic scene. When I used to ride, when we had a good crew, we would determine who did what prior to arrival as time permitted enroute,and based on dispatch information, and then upon 10-84, initiated those tasks. One of the components that went into this decision is the FF's experience, and ideally a inexperienced FF was teamed up with an experienced FF (again, as levels permitted) in order to help the member learn.

"Firm" riding positions, or seat assignments, only work well when you have a steady crew, IMO, such as personell assigned to that rig for the day that know each others strengths and weakness', and duties can be pre-determined. Also, for this to be fully effective, you can't ride with 2 or 3 guys, all positions must be filled. I can only imagine the fights that must go into getting the "Nozzle" chair, lol.

One barrier to this though, is a rig with a "doghouse" engine. This hinders the ability to plan your attack. This is where the headsets come into play, lol.

As for career departments who ride with an engine,truck,rescue concept, with appropriate staffing, I beleive in the riding assignment concept.

For volunteer departments, where crews and how the crews arrive may vary greatly for each department, it should be the responsibitly of the officer on board to know his crew and assign duties prior to arrival . Having well trained, experienced, and competent leadership is critical to this concept.

[hudson144 150]

Throughout the westchester area many departments over the years have gone from small engine companys to responding with trucks as trucks companys. The identification should be either truck or engine. It may and will eliminate problems in the long run. A truck company is responsible for VES,Vent,enter search. by assigning your manpower to the 3 mentioned tasks it is important that the personnel at the fire scene are trained and work accordinly to the situation,in other words a truck co. has to work with the engine co. to know when to vent as well as when not to vent. it is very important that a coordinated attack happens on the fire ground.this is where the riding assignment comes in.at times no members may ride on the truck to the fire scene and it has to be established with your members as they arrive about what tasks are going to be distributed in an order that helps the evolution go into place. yes,1st due lay in,handlines stretched and placed at the front door(remember that hose placement is vital to help protect building occupants eggress from the structure involved) and aggressive attack to be a planned attack. at this point even if the "truck" hasn't shown up someone has to be assigned to vent and give the engine crew the green light to go in and carry out the suppression duties of the engine co. this should all be systematic to help eliminate any type of mistake that might get a ff hurt. I realize at times that manpower might be an issue both on the career side as well as with volunteer depts. most career depts in westchester run with skeleton crews but they have the luxury of showing up around the same time with members being assigned the task for the whole shift. riding positions or job tasks is important to help extiguish the fire as safely as possible!

[towerladder2 22]

Here in Port Chester we use riding assignments. Each seat in the truck has an assigned task, and the corresponding equipment is located at that seat or as close as possible to the seat. Officer has officer's tool, back to chauffer has the irons, back to officer is can man(with universal hook right outside the cab), Second seat chuf. side is OV, and second seat to officer is roof.

Again, as stated, this works best with full compliment, however, even riding short, everyone knows what job to do without being told. The officer has enough to think about on way to a job.

Just my $.02 worth

[RWC130 594]

Tower Ladder 2 I like that concept a lot!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Ok, lets take this a step further. TL2, if no one is riding in the second seat Chauf. side, who is the OVM? The OVM is one of the most critical functions that needs to be performed on the fireground. It also at times takes the most thought depending on bldg construction and conditions. Or whom takes the roof if that seat isn't filled?

I'm just making my point that riding assignments are useful as long as you give the flexibility to your personnel through training that job functions may change. If those riding the truck aren't needed for primary search, then the can and irons get dropped and you may have to go directly to the roof. Even with riding assignments the officer still has to think about whom is doing what, what the conditions are, and then if your not riding with a full compliment of personnel whom is he going to task to do what when he arrives with those standing on the curb or arriving in vehicles. This is one of the most challenging type of SOG's that a volunteer department leadership will have to make because you never know what your staffing level with be, unless you have a minimum response manning. Then you have to prioritze what you think the function will be. But it also comes down to training and common sense, and also what most departments don't have is the luxury of having a well trained person with good experience that can make some decisions as he/she is arriving of whether or not the function "assigned" to the seat they are riding is, is the function needed on the fireground at that given time.

[Guest CFDFASTleader]

The issue again is training.

I know as an ex-captain and current training officer of my company that riding assigments are not easily made. FF ability/training affect every decision made.

We give assignments based on the call and experience of the FF. A less difficult call gives the officer a chance to "train" a newer firefighter or a potiential future officer.

I don't trust anyone with a job that I haven't seen them perform in training, unless I can be with them (false activation,etc.) and evaluate their skills and problem solving techniques. As officers in a volunteer fire department this is a major part of our responsibility.

It would be great if everyone was on the same level (like FDNY), but that's just not the case in our department. Common sense, training and pre-planning make everything possible.

[towerladder2 22]

AlsFF....Point well made. However you also cannot forget the FF's responding in their own vehicle. Alot of times they will get there right behind the rig, and even get there before the rig. At this point depending on the circumstances, the decision as to who does what.

And yes, the training of each individual will determine what job he/she is capable of doing.

Just another point........no one in our company gets a job on their own unless they have worked with a senior member at at least 5 fires.

Again....my $.002 worth

[CFD320 35]

Wow that's only a tenth of 2 cents....lol

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I think riding assignments promote efficiency on the firegoround and lends to a members feeling of "having something to do" even on mundane alarms like automatic alarms. I agree that the volunteers do have a more difficult time filing assignment slots because of fluctuation of available manpower at any given time of the day or night, but shame on us for not exploiting the opportunity when it does arise. I do try to do this by assigning positions whenever our department responds with a crew that has been pre-determined by the detail. Stand-by's,special details etc. I think that this gives the members an opportunity to see how riding assignment theory works and helps them implement it faster when responding to incidents where the luxury of pre-determination isn't available.