Quint

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Does any dept use quints as first due ? If so how do you use it ? What size aerial ? Any problems with reach ? If you had to do it all over again, what would you do or not do ?

PM me if you have info that you may not want seen posted.

Please no negative comments about other depts, trying to for a clear opinion for the future.

Thanks

[GFD70 4]

Greenville runs L4, a 75' 2001 Pierce Dash Quint, along with E150, a 2001 Pierce Dash pumper. Greenville has used a quint since about 1990 when we got rid of our Mack tower ladder. The quint works good for our district because if we ran a regular ladder, we would probably have to run a 2nd due engine as well.

[Guest]

Well, I dont know if this is of any use, but in LA there are 2 different thoughts on quints. The LACoFD uses KME Aerialcat tiller quints, for the most part. They want their whole fleet to go this route. They are either 75' or 100'. All have a 300 gallon tank and a full compliment of hose. They are the second piece out for a standard call. For example, E33 goes on a medical call and another call in FS33's area comes in, the quint goes. Obviously, if its a structure call, everyone goes. I have seen Quint 33 in action many times and I can tell you that I have never seen them pull a line off the quint. They usually throw the ladders and go straight to the roof. LACoFd runs a 4 man quint.

The LAFD on the other hand does not use quints. They have tried, but it just doesn't work for them. They have whats called the light force concept. They have 47 trucks in the city and all are 100' tillers. They run with a second engine from the station called the 200 series engine or pump. For example, at station 11 there is T11, E11 and E211. T11 and E211 always run together and are called the light force and when all 3 run on a call, they are called the task force. If they are running in light force configuration and they get a call for a car fire, they have the means then to put out the fire and not have to wait for an engine to show up. At a structure fire, if the light force is first on scene alone, they take over as an engine company and put first water on the fire. The 200 series engine is manned only by an engineer. A member from the truck usually rides on the 200 series engine if in light force configuration in case a line needs to be layed. LAFD runs a 5 man truck and 1 engineer on the 200 series.

As you can see, they are both different, but the bottom line is, if either department needs water, they are able to produce. One likes the quints, the other doesn't. Just my 2 cents from the west coast........

[x648eng119 2]

Mohegan has 2 quints - L35/L10 which I have heard go 1st due. I'm not sure how they decide which ones to send when, or how it works for them. Maybe someone else could chime in and fill in the blanks there.

[mfc2257 464]

Ladder 47 in North White Plains is a Quint

Ladder 55 in Elmsford is a Quint

Tower Ladder 23 in Chappaqua is a Quint (you wouldn't necessarily call a tower a quint, but it satisfies all the requirements to be one)

There are a handful of others in the county (some mentioned in prior posts in this thread) as well as Mohegans and Millwood's TeleSquirts Engine's 250 & 245 (TeleSquirts usually don't meet the requirements for ground ladders on Quints which is generally accepted at 85 feet of ground ladders, vs a minimum of 115 feet for a Truck/Ladder)

Quints work great for many departments, especially those in residential areas. The first due piece in the driveway, if it's a quint, is able to take advantage of the best positioning. Close enough for preconnects to reach the building, and for it to be laddered at the same time. If the ladder pipe on the Quint is set up properly, there will be a function for a direct ladder feed from another pump. Thus, the second due engine can supply the stick directly to protect exposures, while the fire pump on the quint can safely be used for hoselines.

There are several citys that encorporate Quints into their line up especially for stations that only have a single piece of apparatus. You don't often see a quint and an engine sharing a station.

St. Louis went to an all quint setup a few years back, but I don't know it it's still in effect.

The biggest argument against quints is that they should perform one function or another at a call. The crew of that rig shouldn't be performing truck and engine functions. When a quint arrives, the crew should have a clear indication from the IC as to whether or not they are performing the function of a truck OR an engine. When the next rig arrives, they can be assigned to abandon their engine, ambulance, whatever it is... and pick up the function of the quint that the first due crew isn't doing... either truck or engine work.... This will work in a department where everyone is cross trained on apparatus. Where you would run into problems might be (for example ONLY) in Mount Kisco, where there are separate companies... If L-43 was a quint (I realize it's not) and it arrived first at a job and was assinged an engine function by the IC, then when E105 rolls up behind it, the operator of that rig would need to be trained to work the turntable as well as the crew would need to be experienced in truck work.

Personally, even though I prefer truck work, I love the quint concept.

[Guest]

Ladder 16 in Eastchester is a quint. Although it primarly operates as a truck there have been a few instances where they've used it as an engine until the 1st due engine showed up.

[x648eng119 2]

Ladders/Tower Ladders With Pumps:

L4 Greenville

L10 Mohegan

L12 New Rochelle

L16 Eastchester

L30 Rye Brook

L35 Mohegan

L36 Irvington

L47 North White Plains

L50 Ardsley

L55 Elmsford

TL1 Thornwood (I believe has a 1000GPM pump, but no tank)

TL5 Pleasantville

TL6 White Plains

TL7 Larchmont

TL8 Montrose

TL9 W Harrison

TL11 New Rochelle

TL12 Hawthorne

TL21 Elmsford

TL23 Dobbs Ferry

TL44 Croton

TL45 Peekskill

TL46 Verplank

TL53 Purchase

TL78 Tarrytown

E250 Mohegan (55' Telesquirt)

E245 Millwood (Also a Telesquirt)

PM me with any corrections/additions

Edited August 3, 2005 by 648eng119

[capt2102 64]

UNLESS THE QUINT IS THE ONLY RIG THE DEPT. HAS OR IS IN AN AREA WHERE HELP WILL BE GREATLY DELAYED A QUINT IS NEITHER A GOOD TRUCK OR ENGINE. YOU LOOSE TOO MUCH COMPARTMENT SPACE ON THE TRUCK TO GET THE PUMP TO FIT. SHOW ME A QUINT THAT CAN REPACK HOSE WITHOUT THE LADDER BEING PUT UP. YOU ALSO PLACE THE CREW IN THE POSITION OF " ARE WE A TRUCK OR ENGINE ON THIS FIRE?" YOU CAN'T DO BOTH UNLESS THERE ARE 8 FIREFIGHTERS ON THE RIG AND NO ONE STAFFS LIKE THAT. CALL ME OLD SCHOOL, BUT WHEN I NEED A TRUCK I WANT A TRUCK WITH GROUND LADDERS, FORCED ENTRY TOOLS AND HOOKS... NOT A HALF ASSED HOSE BED.

[Guest JQP442]

Quints do have there place. You should never call for a quint if you want/need a truck (CAPT2012). If you want a truck, call a truck. If you want something that can do it all, call for a quint. As far as packing it back up with the ladder being in the down position, while it is a little bit harder, E245 CAN be packed like that. I have done it a number of times. One of the wonderfull things about the quints are that you have everything you need on one rig (for the most part). You can do all your truck work or engine work off one rig. Anyone who think that there is no place for a quint has never worked with one that was setup properly.

[mfc2257 464]

I incorrectly typed that Chappaqua's TL is #23 in my previous post. It's correct designation is TL-27.

[mstrang1 213]

DObbs Ferry TL 23 has no pump on it.

Ardsley L 50 (AKA Q1) has a 75'RM ladder and a 1500 GPM/400G tank. It kinda works for them. Some negatives of the apparatus itself are for 1, the apparatus is too short to carry a 2 section 35' ladder, so it carries 3 section ladders. It has (if I remember correctly a 30 and a 36 foot 3 section). These things are heavy as hell, and the one on the exterior is mounted quite high. There is also a limited amount of storage space on there, forcing traditional truck tools to be forced on the engine. It also does not have the luxury of having its own ground monitor (only the one on the stick). Also, having to run a pump, worry about a water source, AND getting the aerial put up(the outrigger controls are on rear of apparatus) is not only tedious, but nearly impossible to do all at once.

A positive is that you do not have to worry about the first due engine blocking the front of the building, only the chiefs and police cars...

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Thanks all for the info, now I poise another question. Most responses dealt with quints in the urban response, city streets etc. How does the quint concept - 75' in suburban where setbacks might be 50' - 60' from the road ? Does the quint go up drive ways for the typical p/d ?Are typical residental driveways strong enough for a quint ?I operated a 85' mid mount tower and that has trouble reaching from the road do to setback and outrigger spread.

Again, thank you for your info and probably will visit.

[Guest JQP442]

In Millwood E245 (kinda a quint) will go up most of the driveways and setup there. There are a few exceptions to that rule due to the way the driveway is designed (IE: arches). Not too many problems setting up the outriggers in the driveway. As far as are typical residental driveways strong enough for a quint, if the house is on fire, does it matter if you leave holes or marks where your outriggers were?

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

In Millwood E245 (kinda a quint) will go up most of the driveways and setup there. There are a few exceptions to that rule due to the way the driveway is designed (IE: arches). Not too many problems setting up the outriggers in the driveway. As far as are typical residental driveways strong enough for a quint, if the house is on fire, does it matter if you leave holes or marks where your outriggers were?

Thanks, more worried about stabilityof the rig then making holes. I few years ago one of my guys set up the 85' with one jack on the lawn. Fully extended trying to get to the roof, the jack sunk into the lawn, even with the pad. Made the rig unstable.

Again, I'm an expierenced tower user, mainly street set up, not priivate driveways.

[x635 4,066]

I like the insight on this thread. I especially like the insight on how LA operates, West Coast is so much different from East Coast and it's nice to see how other places operate....theres always something to learn. Thanks for the post and insight Code3RND.

My feelings are...do you want an engine, or a truck. It's my experience that often a truck with a pump, when's it's used as a truck the pump rarely gets used, and when its used as an engine, the stick rarely gets used. And the pump also takes away a lot of space that should be used for truck company equipment, and adds signifcantly to the maitnence costs and complexity of the unit.

It's nice in some situations and systems to have a Quint, especially when you can't justify both an Engine and Truck. It's also nice to have a backup engine there when you need it.

Edited August 5, 2005 by x635

[bmfd231 3]

TL 40 has no pump. Eng 94 is our tender when needed. When considering this truck, putting a pump on was heavily debated. Ultimately we decided to exclude the pump for two reasons, first the loss of compartment space and secondly the element of training. It would have mudded the waters when in fact we wanted to remain a true truck company dedicated to those functions that a truck company does. We think we made the right decision

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

I like the insight on this thread. I especially like the insight on how LA operates, West Coast is so much different from East Coast and it's nice to see how other places operate....theres always something to learn. Thanks for the post and insight Code3RND.

I'm getting a good deal of info from this forum and the PM's keep them coming. This is the situation.

one co has an 85' tower. 2 due in the downtown district. Our district is growing and the need for a device is there. A couple of thought [atterns are going on right now:

1] day time response, we could run the quint first due in our district during day time hours. Low manpower , we could have both worlds. Downtown aerial could be 8-15 run time. We also have long term health care facilities / hotels etc, world hq. Our life hazard is growing

2] all other hours run 2nd due in our district act as truck co

3] run down town as second truck co all the time.

the bottom line, is that as we put together the need, we want to insure we do it right the first time.

[dadbo46 50]

In paid departments, it's all about the the money.

In the late '80's, some city administrators determined that they could save labor costs by combining some/all engine and truck companies into one apparatus....the apparatus that does it all. Manpower could be reduced and $$$ saved.

In volunteer departments, who generally don't have nearly the same needs for an aerial device, a quint can be worked in very nicely with a standard structure response. It can easily function as an engine or a ladder but not carry as much incidental tools as a standard engine or ladder.

Note, however, that for ISO purposes, the apparatus is either an engine or a ladder....but not both !

BTW - My head hurts after reading how LA City operates.

Where is Johnny Gage and Roy Desoto when you need them ?

Edited August 6, 2005 by dadbo46

[Guest]

My opinion; a quint is an overpriced pumper. I would find them most useful in defensive operations or during overhauls. I am a true believer that an engine is an engine, a truck is a truck. Rescue engines however are a nice combination, especially for departments that don't need a true heavy rescue. All departments have multiple engines, so a rescue engine comes in handy. Please however, keep the pump off the stick, keep the stick off the pump.

[JBE 328]

St Louis is still working with quints. Richmond, Virginia went to it about 10 years ago. The light force that was mentioned by my pal from C3 is not much unlike the old Combination Fire Companies we had in FDNY in the 70's. It was an engine, and a TL, staffed by two full crews but commanded by one officer. Didn't last too long. It's nice to have the flexibility, but, you also have to look at budget/manpower.

Personally, I think quints are an example of trying to do more with less.

[ONLOCATION 24]

Quints in my eyes are a great piece of Apparatus. Like in almost all the topics and angles of the fire service it depends on the way you use it if it is the right way or the wrong way. Also it depends on your departments needs aswell. Many departments in this county have "Quint" type units as seen MFC2257 listed them all. If it works for you I don't see the problem with it. Tom Shand and another speaker down at the Baltimore Fire Expo have had Seminars on how to properly spec a quint. Its all about not going overboard. If you have a manpower problem during certain times of the day and are only able to get only one rig out it is great having everything with you. Also on the other hand are not go to have everything unless you have a monster of a truck then you run into other problems such as not being able to access some of your district. some of the quints in this county are not used as pump capable rigs but if the needs there it's there for you. From hearing about Yorktowns new Ladder from people it will be equipped with a pump but will be operated as a true Truck Company rig. Elmsford's quints from my understanding are not used on car fires but if there engines are tied up you have an option of using the pump equipped Ladders. Pumps on Ladders are also an advantge at using elevated master streams and Ladder pipe operations. Just some things I can think of.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've written an article on this subject and many of the ideas/points/opinions already posted all hold water. Richmond, VA also at one point was going to the all quint concept, and when they first started they had some difficulties to overcome. For them it came down to who was doing what function upon arrival because they weren't staffed with enough personnel to do both functions with one truck. In the volunteer fire service, depending on how you operate, filling a crew for resonse vs. going to the scene in your POV (which I hate because its authorized freelancing) is going to dictate how you need to operate.

As far as losing compartment space, sure you lose some because of the pump, but there is still plenty of storage space on the apparatus. If anything I've noticed departments become more appreciative of the space and utilize it more efficiently. All your going to lose with a quint is 2 compartments on both sides where the pump would sit. You can find a place for any equipment that would go in that space, or in some cases laying on a shelf taking up more space then it needs too.

The one thing I can say I definately do not like is the loss of ground ladder space. I prefer 2 30' ladders over 2 24' because they are more versatile and give you a few more feet. On a quint, you generally will have 2 24's and a 3 section 35'. I hate 3 section ground ladders due to weight and the pain in the @ss it can be to get it to come down properly.

[Guest Truckie 1075]

Quint = Jack of all trades, master of none

they work for some people, most of the time they are 10 lbs of s*** in a 5 pound bag, and are an excuse to cut manpower. they can be useful, all depends on the needs of your response area.

[HFD23 37]

Fairview Ladder 1 which is really a tower ladder (KME) has a pump carries water, and has house in the forms of both supply line and pre connects

[Guest aussiegeorge]

over here in sydney australia we have 5 what we call aireal pumpers they act as pumper in there first due area but when required act as the ladder company,we are a bit different over here as we don't have as many ladders as most cities the same size in the usa,for sydney which is about the size of los angles we only have 9 ladder companys with the 5 aireal pumpers.Not many for a city as big as sydney with 102 fire stations.the ladders only respond to first due structure calls in there own station area but we respond 1 ladder to each alarm level,ie 2nd alarm gets 2 ladders,3 rd alarm gets 3 ladders.We also have 8 rescues covering the city with 2 of these being rescue pumpers(a bit like a fdny squad)they act as a first due pumper in there area but a rescue in a larger area,the only problem is when you have a multi alarm in a rescue pumps first due area then you have to respond another rescue because the rescue pumper will be acting as one of the engine companys at the job.cheers from down under.

[RDUNC67 1]

UNLESS THE QUINT IS THE ONLY RIG THE DEPT. HAS OR IS IN AN AREA WHERE HELP WILL BE GREATLY DELAYED A QUINT IS NEITHER A GOOD TRUCK OR ENGINE.  YOU LOOSE TOO MUCH COMPARTMENT SPACE ON THE TRUCK TO GET THE PUMP TO FIT.  SHOW ME A QUINT THAT CAN REPACK HOSE WITHOUT THE LADDER BEING PUT UP.  YOU ALSO PLACE THE CREW IN THE POSITION OF " ARE WE A TRUCK OR ENGINE ON THIS FIRE?" YOU CAN'T DO BOTH UNLESS THERE ARE 8 FIREFIGHTERS ON THE RIG AND NO ONE STAFFS LIKE THAT.  CALL ME OLD SCHOOL,  BUT WHEN I NEED A TRUCK I WANT A TRUCK WITH GROUND LADDERS, FORCED ENTRY TOOLS AND HOOKS... NOT A HALF ASSED HOSE BED.

←

YOU MAY BE RIGHT ABOUT THE COMPARTMENT SPACE , BUT E-ONE MAKES THE 95 REARMOUNT PLATFORM AND HP-75 AERIAL WITH PUMP AND WATER WITH A "SIDESTACKER" HOSE BED FOR ABOUT 1000' OF 4 OR 5" LDH. NO NEED TO MOVE THE AERIAL DEVICE FOR THE HOSE REPACKING.

[SFRD49 8]

Stamford Fire Rescue runs two quints as truck companies. T-1 is a 1995 Sutphen 1500 gpm/400 gal/100' tower ladder and T-2 is a 1997 Sutphen 1500 gpm / 500 gal / 75' midship aerial. They primarily use the pumps when they are assigned to water tower operations (It's nice to assign them a hydrant and they can lay their own line and pump themselves!). As we assign a truck company to vehicle fires there have been many times they arrived beford the engine and stretched the line. Our T-3 does not have a pump.

T-2 is going to be replaced with a rearmount aerial within the next 18 months and it will not have a pump.

Be safe out there.

[cas2383 22]

Bridgeport FD in CT runs Engine 16, on Madison ave, which is a 105' Pierce quint I do believe.

[ndemarse 0]

St Louis is still working with quints. Richmond, Virginia went to it about 10 years ago. The light force that was mentioned by my pal from C3 is not much unlike the old Combination Fire Companies we had in FDNY in the 70's. It was an engine, and a TL, staffed by two full crews but commanded by one officer. Didn't last too long. It's nice to have the flexibility, but, you also have to look at budget/manpower.

Personally, I think quints are an example of trying to do more with less.

←

I heard that St Louis is doing away with their TQC (Total Quint Concept). Is that true? I always thought that for a small town fire department it was an ok idea. I think every department should have an aerial apparatus.

For larger towns and cities, I agree. You are trying to do the work of an engine and a truck with the manpower of one company instead of two. The money should be spent to hire the correct manpower to staff a properly staffed engine and truck.

Just my 2 cents

[Guest aussiegeorge]

why would you respond a ladder to a car fire?