My gripes with training...

[unleashedff248 3]

I've been waiting for over 3 years to take the Firefighter 1 (formerly essentials), and there's a few things I've been noticing. In my opinion, the most severe problem is the enrollment of juniors in the FF1 classes. Now don't get me wrong, juniors deserve training too. But I don't believe that it should come in place of older members. I am currently enrolled in college so I'm away for a good part of the year. I've tried to enroll in courses over the summer now, but to no avail. I've missed out of courses and gone as a standby only to find 6-8 juniors from one department enrolled in the course. Is is just me, or should people 18 and over get priority here? I mean, when you're 16 or 17 you can't be an interior firefighter anyway, so why take the training away from people who will come out of that course ready to be interior firefighters? In my opinion it should be first come-first serve for people 18 and over, and then fill in any seats with juniors. We constantly complain about firefighter shortages, yet we're not doing much to help the issue. Does this strike anyone else as wrong?

[Guest WolfEMT]

The classes should be set up like my department does; juniors get their own class during the school year that coincides with their school schedule. During the summer, the juniors can opt to take the their class or they can opt to take the regular class; however, in the regular class, adult members get priority, since many take the class on the weekends since they work during the week. Aside from the scheduling difference, there are no differences in the junior and regular class - the training, in fact some of the instructors, are the same. This way, everyone gets trained and it's the most efficient way to accomodate everyone's schedule.

[x635 4,066]

I agree with unleashed. Juniors should be given seats on a "leftover" basis. Priority should be

given to the real FF's. In addition, Juniors should have to maintain a B+ average or better in school to be able to take these classes, and if able to take these classes, it should apply as extra credit.

Unfortunetly, because of housing prices, juniors and young members are becoming more and more of many departments rosters.....so that's why they re probaly getting in.

I also beleive that Juniors should not be full-fledged firefighter, but that's a whole seperate topic.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Unleashed...your not the only person who expresses this frustration. However, the courses are out there and often its not an issue of juniors in the course or the courses filling but how quickly you and/or your department realizes there is one out there. I just had a member of your department finish my daytime FF 1 course. It is not uncommon in other parts of the country and even NY to wait several months to receive FF 1 training. I myself when I was in Virginia took nearly 8 months to get into one. You just have to keep trying, stay on top of the schedule as its posted and brow beat your officers to try early and often to get you in.

On a side note. Those must understand that it may take some time to get into a course and its not the end of the world. Westchester County gives the most FF 1 courses in the state. There are things that your department should be doing with you to make you better coming into the door on the first night and to tune you into their operations so you are ready for them when you come out of a curriculum that cannot be point specific on operations due to the amount of different methods out there to do our job. They should be showing you how to gear up, giving you intro's to SCBA checks and donning, tying some knots, hitting hydrants, throwing ladders (yes sometimes we do have to change bad habits but your gonna be doing this responding before your course anyway), and giving you an IFSTA manual to start reading. Help yourself and your department should be helping us deliver the best product on the street when you leave the classroom for your true education.

[x635 4,066]

ALS, I think his main issue is not being able to get in because junior members are filling spots.

It's great Westchester gives the most FFI classes in the state, and I fully realize that waits in other areas are longers. But I personally feel it's ridiculous that somebody who is 18 and a full, regular member of the department can't get into a class because there are junior firefighters filling the spots. Regardless of how many classes you guys

give, if I couldnt get into a course because some 16 or 17 year old is taking it, I would be quite pissed. Juniors should be offered the class on an as-available basis after the course has been offered to all adults.

I do agree on the in house foundation training htough.

[doug_e 0]

I agree with the comments I've read in this thread. My take on it is that the Juniors should be held out of FF1 until after one year of active service in the department. This will separate the wheat from the chaff. During this 1st year the junior FF should be introduced to the department and firefighting by a mentor who'll guide him/her through their indoctrination. This mentor should be responsible for getting the junior a slot in FF1 after he/she completed an "in department" basic training curriculum. Also, the mentor can continue to advise the junior during the class to augment and enhance the learning experience. During their tenure as juniors their school record should be reviewed and their parents consulted regularly to insure that "the department" isn't too distracting.

This will keep the enthusiasm up, cultivate a supportive learning environment, bring the family and the department closer. This approach will insure that the juniors attending FF1 will have a better command of the basic concepts so the training will be more meaningful. Not just kewl... 8)

Also, the IFSTA manual should be part of the orientation package every new member gets on the night they're sworn in.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Great topic and replys! I totally understand your aggravation unleashed and i agree with everyones replys.

On the topic of numerous FF's from 1 department in a course...I was under the impression that only 1 FF from each dept. can be in a class at one time, unless there are available seats? Maybe alsfirefighter can confirm or deny that? I thought that was a new policy enacted back in January or sometime? But i too have been in numerous courses with multiple FF's from the same Dept.

It would be nice if they (the State/County) could change things so that only FF's that are 18 and older can enrole in FFI courses. But i don't know if that is at all possible.

I like doug_e's idea of having FF's "active" in their respective department for at least 1 year before enrolling in a FF1 course. This will give the FF a chance to learn the basic operations and procedures of not only their department, but of the fire service in general.

Unleashedff248...As i stated, i can understand where you are coming from and you make many valid points. The only advice i can give to you is to look around. If you are willing to travel a bit, look into Putnam or Rockland FTC's. We just had one of our FF/EMT's who was in the same situation as you. He is 21 and a junior at Stony Brook University on LI. He is away at school most of the year and found it near impossible to find a course to fit his schedule. He even looked into taking it out on Long Island, but to no avail. He finally found a FFI course at the Putnam FTC that runs weekdays from 9-4 and Saturdays as well. The class is only two weeks long since they are there for full days.

[fitzjr11 17]

Putnam County has had close to 4 classes this year, and are currently holding a day 2 week course. Often the classes fill up quickly, have your dept request to "host" a training class, this usually garantees that members from your dept get in. To be waiting 3 yrs is a long time, our department gives a time limit of I believe 2 years to take the class or you are dropped from the roles, I know many other dept give a deadline of 1 year.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

With all due respect...

In regard to the waiting 3 years comment on Firefighter 1, not accurate and I overlooked that in the first reading until fitzjr. brought it up again. Firefighter 1 hasn't been around that long, so no one has been waiting 3 years. Firefighter 1 has only been around for just over a year and a half or so now. So perhaps for one or so years you were waiting for basic firefighter? and then intermediate?

In Westchester County it is policy not to have departments "host" a course. Courses are only conducted generally in 1 of 3 sites. The FTC, and the satellites in Katonah and Mamaroneck which are classrooms.

As far as withholding juniors, I'm waiting to see where they are all to get into their comments that they feverishly get into on other junior threads. The state allows juniors to take the course as long as they are covered by department insurance and are not explorers. On a different angle anything other then allowing similiar access to all could be entangled in age discrimination being it is allowed on a state level.

[BIGRED1 71]

Am i mistaken but don't 16-17 years old not have drivers licsences yet at that age? they can't drive at night or something? i heard they changed the whole driving permit schedule and since i am 26 and not in high school i don;t have the details. these kids cant respond to fires in a car if they cant drive. also older guys have jobs, we cant all jsut drop what were doing so we can take a class in the summer, kids can, so give their class around school schedule.

[Guest]

you are mistaking....a 16 year old must have his permit for 6 monthes then gets a junior license after passing their road test, and if a drivers education course is completed they will recieve their senior license at 17

[Guest]

X

What is a "real" firefighter? How does one become a "real" firefighter? Through training!I feel that you are right with having to maintain grades.There is a decline in membership in most parts of the country and recruitment and retention is a must if a department is to provide proper service to a community.Keeping younger members interested and trained is part of that community commitment and to the department.I don't think it unfourtnate at all that younger menbers and juniors are getting on department rosters its whats needed to keep departments going.

[unleashedff248 3]

Let me clear some things up. I've been a member in good standing for about 3 years now, and I've been waiting for a firefighter training course to come up that meets my needs. At first it was basic (I called it essentials in my first post) and now it's FF1. I was enrolled in a course starting last month (night time) at the FTC, showed up two nights, and then was booted. There were maybe 5-6 people over 18 in that course, and multiple FF's from the same department (not like 2 or 3, but 4 or 5!). I was the only one from Somers. It's hard for me to find courses that fit my needs. I investigated the FF1 in Putnam, but I also work a full time job/internship at a major corporation. I can't take 2 weeks off...which leads to another thing. College. I need the money I earn from my job to subsidize the $36,000 a year my parents are dishing out for college. 2 weeks off from work = $1,200 loan I have to take. Is it worth it? Yes, I'm dying to take FF1, but I'm off probation for over a year now as an EMT. So I'm secure in the department. In terms of in-house training, last year I made almost 300 calls (something like 298...ridiculous), and almost as many the year before. I have a lot of knowledge when it comes to fireground operations, but not much hands-on experience. I used to be able to train with live fires with my department, but that's not allowed any more for some reason. So where am I? I'm standing by the door collecting tags. That's fine for a while, but eventually anyone will get tired of it. So until next year, I have to wait for Firefighter 1. :-k

Thank you everyone for your input and support on this topic.

[firemn23 8]

ALS are most of the members taking FF1 knowledgable at all when they take your class? Also if most of your students catch on quickly to what you are teaching does the state allow for you to go off in other areas?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Unleashed: Again I feel your frustration as I also had to wait sometime as a young volunteer firefighter in Virginia for a course to come up in my departments region. Not county but region. If anything I sense and commend you that your priorities are straight in regard to life and volunteer service. You will get it all together at some point, but your education and life come first and I admire that aspect of you.

Second: Are most students knowledgable when they take the course? Some more then others. Some too knowledgeable at least in their minds. What exactly is the point of this question?

My comment about departments doing their part has nothing to do with being totally knowledgable in overall firefighting operations but the background that will aid them and their department in their operations and make them advance more quickly in class. Does the state allow me to go off in other areas? Again I have no clue as to what you are alluding too. No you follow the curriculum and you give your students the basics, both book with a mix of sound and safe real world operations. And for me that means safe as in operations not as in saying to do it that way. You ask any student if I've ever gone off course or put them in harms way...you will not find one. You won't find one that can tell you they didn't leave me comfortable operating under supervision on a fireground when they leave my courses. Which is exactly what firefighter 1 is designed to do. The problem is departments whom don't invest in their members as a resource, instead as another interior firefighter they can add to the numbers. You are not coming out of that class an experienced firefighter, you are coming out to start your education to learn to be a safe, efficient, sound, experienced firefighter. You cannot get that in entry level firefighting course. There are tons of more things I want to teach my firefighter 1 students based on my experienced with certain things, and some I do hit hard on in regard to FIRE BEHAVIOR AND BUILDING CONSTRUCTION. KNOW IT, LOVE IT, RESPECT IT AND UNDERSTAND IT. If we want to talk about training and problems and frustration...take a look at a majority of departments in this county and what is suppose to be a comprehensive training program. Training and safety aren't words, even if you say them over and over..it doesn't make you a safe conscious and proactive department and it doesn't make it training.

[firemn23 8]

I was not implying anything it has been over 10 years since i was n essentials and was just wondering what the course is like and what to tell the new members to expect when taking the course that is all.

[Stench60 29]

This has been gone over before in previous threads so I won't belabor everyone with prior comments I've made other than to say that no " junior member " should be taking a training slot when a full member is available to fill the seat.