Would You Hit This Fire From The Outside?

[x635 4,066]

I'm going to  play Facebook Fireman. Indulge me if you will.

 

After watching the video(s) of this fire, in the video below, it leaves me wondering. It's a stereotypical raised ranch. It was well involved upon arrival and self venting, as you can see.  Why not hit the fire from the outside and knock it back a bit with a 2 1/2 line from outside?  Make it more manageable to make entry (which I also question when it's confirmed all occupants are out. As a result, a firefighter fell through stairs and had to be transported to the hospital. It also looks like they could have made a rapid attack into the garages which looked like they were cooking. The fire keeps cooking, but I still don't see any water being placed on the fire until the structure is completely gone, all I see is them allowing more oxygen to enter the structure.

 

Here's the video by JTC Fire Photography, he got really good shots of this fire. The video is below, pictures can be viewed by clicking this link.

 

[savff 26]

The biggest issue appears to be the amount of time it took to get any water on the fire. The videos is edited so we can't get an actual time line of what occurred.

[LayTheLine 108]

Always easy to 2nd guess, but I think I would have started an exterior attack.

[Morningjoe 162]

We're getting only 1 view from this fire...

 

1) first Due unit appears to be a ladder co. You can hear the outriggers setting up...

 

2) the first line appears to go through the rear of the building. Most homes like this on long island have a rear slider that is opposite the main stairs. You can see a significant change in smoke to steam in the basement before the front door is even open, so water was definitely on the fire. 

 

3) I hate second guessing or making it seem like my way would be the right way, but being it early morning, looking at the smoke condition coming from the bedrooms above the garages (appears that the doors are closed, and the amount of fire in the living room and dining room and the obvious compromise of the stairs, If I was one of the two guys on the front patio, I probably would have VESed them.

 

4) the "hit it hard from the yard" idea... With the obvious amount of fire, and seeing that the living, dining room, kitchen, and stairwell are involved, that whole 80* through the window might work for a single room off, but for that much involvement you need to get to its source and attack it there. Period. And if my observation from note 2 is correct, then hihfty is not even an option. 

 

 

 

[dwcfireman 656]

Every fire is a challenge.  And every fire is going to be Monday morning quarterbacked.  But I'd rather focus on those scene lights on the bucket...Those things lit up that front yard like daylight!

 

 

[FireMedic049 597]

5 hours ago, Morningjoe said:

We're getting only 1 view from this fire...

 

1) first Due unit appears to be a ladder co. You can hear the outriggers setting up...    While you can hear what sounds like outriggers deploying, the video itself appears to show an engine arriving first.

 

2) the first line appears to go through the rear of the building. Most homes like this on long island have a rear slider that is opposite the main stairs. You can see a significant change in smoke to steam in the basement before the front door is even open, so water was definitely on the fire.   I would tend to disagree.  The limited view doesn't definitively show a line going to the rear and I do not see any smoke conversion in the basement prior to the front door being opened.  The abrupt editing of the video leads me to believe that some water may have been applied to the fire showing in the front exterior, particularly the garage area.  I'm pretty sure the first line is the one not being used much in the front yard.

 

3) I hate second guessing or making it seem like my way would be the right way, but being it early morning, looking at the smoke condition coming from the bedrooms above the garages (appears that the doors are closed, and the amount of fire in the living room and dining room and the obvious compromise of the stairs, If I was one of the two guys on the front patio, I probably would have VESed them.   I would tend to agree that the room(s) over the garage do initially appear tenable and VES could be an option however, given the fire already showing from around the garage doors, doing so from the front of the building could be a bit dicey if you don't get a protective line on that effort as you could easily lose your egress path.

 

4) the "hit it hard from the yard" idea... With the obvious amount of fire, and seeing that the living, dining room, kitchen, and stairwell are involved, that whole 80* through the window might work for a single room off, but for that much involvement you need to get to its source and attack it there. Period. And if my observation from note 2 is correct, then hihfty is not even an option.   Formulating an action plan from just after what appears to be the first engine arriving, HIHFTY would not be a consideration from me at that point.  Any improvement in conditions from lobbing some water in the living room window would be quickly lost while hitting the fire around the front entryway and fighting your way inside. 

 

My first line would likely hit the fire showing from the garage and front door with the intent to make entry thru the front door.  Given what appears to be a lot of time passing and not much in the way of suppression before the living room lights off, it's hard to say if the first line could prevent or delay the flashover or if conditions would necessitate pulling them.  My second line goes to the garage to hit that as soon as the garage doors can be taken out since there's a good chance that this may be the area of origin.

 

 

 

 

It's hard to say for sure given the limitations of the video, but this incident doesn't appear to be an "A" effort.

[goon16 155]

Instead of questioning an exterior attack vs an aggressive interior attack.  They should be getting back to basics and work on that.   Like someone mentioned above not really an "A" effort.  The way the video was edited you can't really create a true time line of how long it took to get things going.  In the video it shows an engine pulling up and to me it looks like it took a long time to get the line in place and water in it.  They had a chance to make a good push on this but their lack of assertiveness and aggressiveness they let this get away from them. I'd be embarrassed if I was the chief after seeing this.  

[S1720G 62]

Always HIHFTY

[LineCapt 134]

This firefighter was seriously injured with 3rd degree burns after a stairway collapse. WHY? Here's some more photos and video.
 

Quote

 

On April 30, Vinny Plotino, a volunteer fire fighter of 24 years was injured in a fire. At 2:14am Vinny responded to an electrical fire located on Bushwick Avenue in Central Islip. While performing his duties, he along with another firefighter fell through the stairs. Vinny suffered second and third degree burns to his neck, hands, leg, and foot. He is currently being very well taken care of at the Suffolk County Volunteer Firefighters Burn Center in Stony Brook https://www.gofundme.com/3qfhq60

 

 

 

 

[FireMedic049 597]

3 hours ago, LineCapt said:

This firefighter was seriously injured with 3rd degree burns after a stairway collapse. WHY? Here's some more photos and video.

 

 

Why?  Because far too many continue to think that as long as the fire trucks show up and the fire (eventually) goes out, it's a "win".

 

I freely admit that I'm making a judgement without the "full story", but based on what these videos show, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that this is what a fire department that isn't adequately prepared to perform its core function looks like. 

 

Fire departments that know what to do don't have a large group of personnel dressed for the occasion standing around doing nothing in front of a house while it burns!

[x635 4,066]

Is that a guy carrying a can at 0:46 into the most recent video posted above?

 

[SECTMB 612]

CAFS

[x635 4,066]

I just came across this video which could be applicable to this situation. and others similar to this. Using the deck gun offensively to get control of the fire could darken down the fire quickly to make it more manageable with handlines.

 

https://vimeo.com/205474139

 

[Steve 78]

A go-fund me page has been set up, due to this incident -

 

On April 30, Vinny Plotino, a volunteer fire fighter of 24 years was injured in a fire. At 2:14am Vinny responded to an electrical fire located on Bushwick Avenue in Central Islip. While performing his duties, he along with another firefighter fell through the stairs. Vinny suffered second and third degree burns to his neck, hands, leg, and foot. He is currently being very well taken care of at the Suffolk County Volunteer Firefighters Burn Center in Stony Brook. The team of doctors, nurses, and staff have been amazing throughout this difficult time. The love and support he has received from his fellow brothers, friends, and family are very much appreciated. This Go-Fund Me account was created to help Vinny financially while he recovers and gets back to work. He has an amazing son Julian, who many of us know and love. Vinny's number one priority is his son. We do not want Vinny to worry about finances while recovering. Donations will help pay for everyday expenses and bills. In addition, 10% of the total amount received will be donated to The Suffolk County Volunteer Firefighters Burn Center at Stony Brook. Thank you to anyone who is able to contribute and for all the prayers and well wishes.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Steve

[FireMedic049 597]

9 hours ago, x635 said:

I just came across this video which could be applicable to this situation. and others similar to this. Using the deck gun offensively to get control of the fire could darken down the fire quickly to make it more manageable with handlines.

 

https://vimeo.com/205474139

 

I agree that there are times in which using the deck gun for a quick knockdown in order to perform interior operations is appropriate however, I don't think that tactic was appropriate for this particular fire being discussed.  Based on the initial view shown in these videos, the amount of fire showing on arrival appears to be manageable with a handline giving no true advantage to the use of the deck gun.

 

As the video progresses, one could make the argument for hitting it with the deck gun, but that need appears to be the direct result of what looks like insufficient action by the initial crews that allowed the fire to progress to that point.

[firemoose827 324]

I think an important aspect to remember here is it is a split level home.  The amount of fire showing from the garage indicates to me that the whole lower level is well involved, that handline should have went in through the garage, not the stairs which had heavy fire conditions directly underneath them.  I live in a split level, and my stairs are open to the lower level, so any fire involvement would weaken those stairs pretty significantly.  

I believe a quick attack through the garage would have knocked down the fire quickly enough to control it.

[FireMedic049 597]

2 hours ago, firemoose827 said:

I think an important aspect to remember here is it is a split level home.  The amount of fire showing from the garage indicates to me that the whole lower level is well involved, that handline should have went in through the garage, not the stairs which had heavy fire conditions directly underneath them.  I live in a split level, and my stairs are open to the lower level, so any fire involvement would weaken those stairs pretty significantly.  

I believe a quick attack through the garage would have knocked down the fire quickly enough to control it.

I disagree with the conclusion that "the whole lower level is well involved" based on the fire showing from the garage and that the handline should have gone thru the garage first.  If you look at the beginning of the first video, just before and after that engine arrives, there is fire burning around the garage doors, but there is no fire at the front door and no visible fire and limited smoke from the downstairs window to the right.  The whole lower level is clearly not what I'd consider to be "well involved".

 

To me, based on that assessment, the area of origin is more than likely the garage and actual fire does not appear to spread much yet.  Smoke yes, fire not so much.  Conditions on the upper floor seem like they could still be survivable for any occupants (not sure what the occupancy information they had was).  Looking at the videos a few times, it kind of looked like the fire spread to the front door area may have been an exterior spread from the garage rather than the interior burning thru.  While the garage certainly needs addressed, getting thru the garage doors is likely going to take a few minutes to do anything other than flow water from the driveway.

 

As such, my first line would be hitting the visible fire from the garage and then attempting to make entry thru the front door in attempt to cut off the fire spread and protect the stairs for a quick search of the bedrooms over the garage.  As manpower would allow, other personnel would simultaneously get to work on removal of the garage doors while the 2nd line supports that work (Ideally, you create an opening large enough to flow water thru in the one door to hold the fire in check some while working on removal of the other door.).

 

Given how choppy the video editing is, it's hard to get a good sense of the timing of the obvious fire spread that occurs.  So, it's hard to tell for sure if conditions would allow for sustained interior operations, but it might be long enough to at least make a quick search.

 

 

[LayTheLine 108]

This has been a fascinating thread. I've watched the video 4 or 5 times. Many different good points were made. It proves that there is no one perfect way to attack a fire. Here's my idea, which I thought of the first time I saw the video.

 

I would order an 1 3/4 inch stretched to the garage door. I would then order one of the upper panels on the garage door pulled down, probably a halligan & a pike pole would do the trick. I would then direct the hoseline into that opening for 30 seconds to a minute. In the confined space of the garage the fire should get knocked down quickly with the steam generated. I am a firm believer that you need to knock down the main body of fire which is generating the most heat and the most BTU's. The other advantage to this tactic is that the steam will follow the flow pattern of the smoke and hopefully will help stop the hidden fire spread. I wouldn't be too worried about steam generated affecting any victims, because either they got out of the house or are unconscious on a bed or the floor. Any steam that settles to the floor level will be somewhat cooled.

 

After the quick application of water into the garage, I'd wait a minute or two to see what was happening with the fire and smoke. I wouldn't commit anyone yet, but I'd order the hose stretched to the front door and prepare for entry, I would order 2 ladders set up for secondary means of egress, and I'd assign someone to the back of the house to give me a report on what they see.

 

Assuming the heavy fire in the garage was darkened down and the smoke emitting from the house began turning lighter in color, I would then order the line into the front door for fire control & extinguishment while searches and ventilation went on. If things seemed to be going well, I'd then order the garage doors removed to complete fire extinguishment in the garage. 

 

 

[firemoose827 324]

On 5/7/2017 at 4:09 PM, FireMedic049 said:

I disagree with the conclusion that "the whole lower level is well involved" based on the fire showing from the garage and that the handline should have gone thru the garage first.  If you look at the beginning of the first video, just before and after that engine arrives, there is fire burning around the garage doors, but there is no fire at the front door and no visible fire and limited smoke from the downstairs window to the right.  The whole lower level is clearly not what I'd consider to be "well involved".

 

To me, based on that assessment, the area of origin is more than likely the garage and actual fire does not appear to spread much yet.  Smoke yes, fire not so much.  Conditions on the upper floor seem like they could still be survivable for any occupants (not sure what the occupancy information they had was).  Looking at the videos a few times, it kind of looked like the fire spread to the front door area may have been an exterior spread from the garage rather than the interior burning thru.  While the garage certainly needs addressed, getting thru the garage doors is likely going to take a few minutes to do anything other than flow water from the driveway.

 

As such, my first line would be hitting the visible fire from the garage and then attempting to make entry thru the front door in attempt to cut off the fire spread and protect the stairs for a quick search of the bedrooms over the garage.  As manpower would allow, other personnel would simultaneously get to work on removal of the garage doors while the 2nd line supports that work (Ideally, you create an opening large enough to flow water thru in the one door to hold the fire in check some while working on removal of the other door.).

 

Given how choppy the video editing is, it's hard to get a good sense of the timing of the obvious fire spread that occurs.  So, it's hard to tell for sure if conditions would allow for sustained interior operations, but it might be long enough to at least make a quick search.

 

 

Very good points here as well.  I was basing my response on the fact that I live in a split level home, and my stairs are open to the lower level.  The garage is located right next to the stairs and even if the lower level were not entirely involved, it would still be impinging on the stairs and weakening them significantly.  I remember when I took the Building Construction course, the instructor stated it well; You need to know the building construction and fire behavior in order to get ahead of the fire.  If I were the first arriving officer I would look for a pass door into the lower level, on my house there is one next to the garage doors and one in back of the house as well, but a quick 360 would find that.  I would have sent the line through that door to attack the fire in the garage, clearly the room of origin as you stated.  If I knew for a fact that all the occupants were accounted for, then the attack goes through the basement door and I would see how conditions change before going through the front door on those stairs to check for extension.

Good points.  Just remember, there are a hundred tactics to use and a thousand tools to help us achieve them based on the departments equipment, initial response, conditions on arrival and response area.

[kinkchaser 352]

This the second fire on this site with a massive house fire seemingly starting in the garage( Fairview NJ). A car going on fire possibly extending to a second vehicle and most definitely the storage which usually includes combustibles and often flammable liquids, pesticides and God forbid winter propane storage, will generate a tremendous fire condition and volume of smoke unlike any place else in a dwelling. Additionally there will be a delayed discovery as smoke detectors are not normally in a garage,

[vodoly 535]

2 hours ago, kinkchaser said:

This the second fire on this site with a massive house fire seemingly starting in the garage( Fairview NJ). A car going on fire possibly extending to a second vehicle and most definitely the storage which usually includes combustibles and often flammable liquids, pesticides and God forbid winter propane storage, will generate a tremendous fire condition and volume of smoke unlike any place else in a dwelling. Additionally there will be a delayed discovery as smoke detectors are not normally in a garage,

Fairview Fire electrical in origin structure involved was a Duplex the one side of the Duplex received heavy damage to garage & 1st floor The 2nd floor received heavy smoke damage as well as the other side of the Duplex Very aggressive Fire attack by the 1st due Engine FV 3 A Mack MC Ward 79 I might add

[FireMedic049 597]

On 5/9/2017 at 3:41 AM, firemoose827 said:

Very good points here as well.  I was basing my response on the fact that I live in a split level home, and my stairs are open to the lower level.  The garage is located right next to the stairs and even if the lower level were not entirely involved, it would still be impinging on the stairs and weakening them significantly.

 

Provided the fire has extended from the garage.

 

On 5/9/2017 at 3:41 AM, firemoose827 said:

Good points.  Just remember, there are a hundred tactics to use and a thousand tools to help us achieve them based on the departments equipment, initial response, conditions on arrival and response area.

Hyperbole aside, you are correct that that there can be more than one way to handle a situation.  However, it's incumbent that we do our best to choose the best option rather than just any option.  As such, departments and their leaders have an obligation to be adequately trained and prepared for the situations that they will likely see based on those things you mention in order to not limit their available options for mitigation.  This particular department didn't seem to be adequately prepared for the task at hand shown in the videos.