White Plains Ladder 34 Closed Due To Lack Of Manpower

[LineCapt 134]

 

[kinkchaser 352]

January is not prime leave time in career Departments , what will they do in July/August ?????

[letsgo1547 50]

What is their man power normally,how many rigs do they run

[61MACKBR1 222]

 The WPFD currently operates out of 5 Fire Stations, located throughout the city, under the command of a Deputy Chief per shift. The WPFD also operates a frontline fire apparatus fleet of 5 Engines, 3 (Now 2) Ladders, and 1 Rescue,

[fdalumnus 165]

Don't they man the rescue with the firefighters from the ladder in HQ ?

 

The rank and file need to go door to door and inform the citizens in the L34 response area of what is going on.

[SilentShadow 32]

You'd think with all the development in White Plains, that they would have enough cash to increase FD staffing.

 

What is the staffing on a Ladder truck in White Plains? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the Rescue out of service and cross staff it if needed? But I could see that being exploited by the city to cut staffing on the Rescue.

[storm419 9]

WPFD right now has 134 firefighters on the line compared to 169 about 10 years ago. The rescue at headquarters is in service 24/7/365, and is one of only two fully staffed rescue companies in Westchester County, the other being Yonkers. Right now we run bare bones across the board, 3 men on each rig (engines, ladders & the rescue) with a fourth man going to the ladders or rescue depending on availability. That means if Ladder 34 is open and one man calls in sick, has a personal day or comp day/vacation, then the rig is shut down and the 2 remaining FF's (or LT) are sent to be the fourth man on either L-32, TL-6, or R-88 at the DC's discretion.  During the summer months especially, L-34 is shut down entirely and we ride 3 across the board, filling vacancies with OT. The city will not fill vacancies on 34 with OT, they brown it out, leaving the entire south side of the city without a ladder. The next nearest ladder is 32 and if that is tied up at an alarm, it's TL-6 which is about 10-12 minutes from L-34's first due area. If they were to shut down the rescue and man L-34, you'd just be shuffling responsibility mainly on L-32's shoulders which would pick up about 1,300 alarms per year on top of the 1,500 it already takes. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by storm419

[SFRD372 43]

If I am correct the year is 2017, not the 1960's when "brownouts" were so common in the FDNY! It's time the politicians in White Plains showed more interest in public safety that "vote getting" for their individual campaigns. I believe that Local 274 should start marching at City Hall and at the home of the Mayor, Tom Roach. He claims to care about public protection but certainly doesn't show it by putting the ladder oos so often. One civilian death due to a fire will cost the City 100 times more than it would ever cost to staff that ladder. I am fortunate to work in a City where we operate 9 engines, 3 ladders, 1 heavy rescue and a Deputy Chief with an aide,  and our contract mandates ALL APPARATUS be staffed with a minimum of 4 firefighters each. It's inherently un-safe for your members to be operating at such reduced staffing levels. Fight for what you want and most of all need!

Edited January 27, 2017 by SFRD372

[Viper 139]

Latest Update:

 

 

[vodoly 535]

Jersey City been doing brown outs for years usually during the summer 

[NorthEndExpress 54]

How can White Plains maintain a Class 1 ISO rating with staffing issues?

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Does anybody remember what Barry said about 3 years ago on the tax cap , WELL!

[x635 4,066]

When Ladder 34 was  a Quint a few years back, did it run as a single company out of the station, or how did that work?

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

What years  , I don't remember 34 ever being a Quint

[GreatPlains588 131]

White Plains Ladder 34

 

Ladder 34 - RETIRED

1995 Ford/Smeal 1250/500/75ft.
Served from 1995-2013

**NEVER RAN AS A QUINT**

Ladder 32 - FORMER

2012 Spartan/Smeal 105ft. - NON - QUINT
Served as Ladder 32 from 2012-2016
Now Serving as Ladder 34

 

[LineCapt 134]

This was regarding the fire yesterday at the Sports Page Bar:

 

Quote

 

White Plains Professional Fire Fighters - IAFF Local 274

Ladder 34 was in service during the fire, luckily. However soon after the fire Ladder 32 blew a piston, and without another spare truck (TL-6 was using the spar...e) L-34 was reassigned as L-32 and the 34 crew was forced to use a spare engine (E-72) as their responding apparatus. Needless to say they had their hands full yesterday.

 

 

[Viper 139]

 

 

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/white-plains/2017/02/13/white-plains-fire-union-department-understaffed/97849662/

[dwcfireman 656]

As a resident of the city, it would be fabulous to have a third ladder company staffed at all times.  Unfortunately, given the times of doing more with less, I don't see it happening on a full time basis.  Having adequately crewed apparatus these days seems to be an anomaly.  Heck, even FDNY only has an extra person on a handful of engines!

 

As a union rep myself, and as a concerned citizen, and as one to have some sort of common sense, I advocate every department to have the proper staffing for what "could happen."  I just don't see it happening as governments continually slash emergency services budgets to fill woeful gaps.  To pay the firefighters you have to cut money from somewhere else or run a deficit, and we all know budgetary deficits are bad.  So where is the money going to come from?  All too often the people siting at the desks crunching numbers forget that there are grants (SAFER is a prime one) that get more people on the rigs to get qualified personnel to the scene of an incident.  It just irks me as a professional in this service and as a citizen that we can't put enough firefighters on the front line!  Yes, we can do the job with three firefighters per rig....But we can do a heck of a lot better with just one more person apparatus.  We can do even more with a whole other truck!

[Bnechis 3,961]

4 hours ago, dwcfireman said:

Unfortunately, given the times of doing more with less,

 

Heck, even FDNY only has an extra person on a handful of engines!

 

So where is the money going to come from? 

 

Yes, we can do the job with three firefighters per rig....But we can do a heck of a lot better with just one more person apparatus.  We can do even more with a whole other truck!

Let's look at these key points

 

1) we have actually gotten to the point that we are doing less with less.

 

2) it's not an extra person, it's the majority of companies are running with what the department standards say is sub standard 

 

3) great question, but has anyone considered that the injury rates have exploded as manpower has dropped? What are the medical cost, the OT cost to cover the injured member and the increased pension and disability costs gotten us?

 

4) The University of Rhode Island School of Economics did a study on the Providence FD about 25 years ago and determined that 3 man companies cost more than 4 man companies after one calculated the above injury costs.

[STAT213 332]

Can you find a copy or a link to that story from providence?

[Bnechis 3,961]

9 hours ago, STAT213 said:

Can you find a copy or a link to that story from providence?

Unfortunately, I have never been able to find it online and have been look for my hard copy for a number of years. I have no idea what I did with it.

[GreatPlains588 131]

Here is a FE article that references it:

 

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-162/issue-8/features/fire-department-staffing-a-need-not-a-want.html

 

Stay safe

[dwcfireman 656]

16 hours ago, Bnechis said:

3) great question, but has anyone considered that the injury rates have exploded as manpower has dropped? What are the medical cost, the OT cost to cover the injured member and the increased pension and disability costs gotten us?

 

4) The University of Rhode Island School of Economics did a study on the Providence FD about 25 years ago and determined that 3 man companies cost more than 4 man companies after one calculated the above injury costs.

 

Barry, I love these two points because one leads to the next.  I remember from my Physiology of Flight class (one of my aviation electives) that it's the same ordeal in the airline industry.  The drop in the number of pilots requires the crews to fly additional legs each day, which leads to fatigue, a lack of spatial orientation, and confusion.  These are the three most common reasons that planes crash/deviate/etc. when the determination is pilot error.  The same is happening to the fire service, where a drop in the number of firefighters is making us fatigued and frustrated.  We end up overwhelmed trying to pick up the slack of not having the extra help on scene, and we get caught up in some sort of incident .

 

But I want to jump back to the OT portion.  When I took my economics classes there were a few points that brought out the fact that in many cases overtime costs are less expensive than hiring additional manpower (this wasn't fire service related, but just a general overlook into budgeting for personnel overhead, as overtime reduces the need to pay for another employee's benefits, healthcare, etc.).  Would paying firefighters overtime to fill a few extra seats during peak hours be effective enough to help mitigate incidents and prevent injuries?  Or do you think it may result in more injuries because firefighters will end up working more hours?  I know it's hard to say one way or the other because every department is different, but I'm just looking to pick peoples' brains to see what you and other may think of adding overtime shifts to help cover the busier hours of the day.

[AFS1970 504]

17 hours ago, dwcfireman said:

 

...Would paying firefighters overtime to fill a few extra seats during peak hours be effective enough to help mitigate incidents and prevent injuries?  Or do you think it may result in more injuries because firefighters will end up working more hours?  I know it's hard to say one way or the other because every department is different, but I'm just looking to pick peoples' brains to see what you and other may think of adding overtime shifts to help cover the busier hours of the day.

 

Peak hours is always going to be a disputed factor. Most of us used some kind of reporting software that can run a report for this. Way back when I was in a VFD one of the career guys did this, figured out what our busiest days were and posted it. He was trying to encourage more volunteers to be in the station on days they were more likely to get calls. Not sure why but we stopped posting the list after a while. At work in Dispatch we used to have a potential drop in manpower at 3AM but that was until they lowered it all the time. This would be the biggest fear of any right thinking union, that management would put more guys on during peaks but at the cost of less guys on during lulls. Then there is the fact of minimum pay. Most city employees in my city get a 4 hour minimum call back. Would the city want to pay this if the peak was less than 4 hours?

I think it is an interesting concept to look at staffing this way, but I would be afraid that the same data could be used to cut positions. I have seen two factions in a debate use the same data to make conflicting suggestions before and it never works out well for the rank and file.

 

[Bnechis 3,961]

18 hours ago, dwcfireman said:

 

But I want to jump back to the OT portion.  When I took my economics classes there were a few points that brought out the fact that in many cases overtime costs are less expensive than hiring additional manpower (this wasn't fire service related, but just a general overlook into budgeting for personnel overhead, as overtime reduces the need to pay for another employee's benefits, healthcare, etc.).  Would paying firefighters overtime to fill a few extra seats during peak hours be effective enough to help mitigate incidents and prevent injuries?  Or do you think it may result in more injuries because firefighters will end up working more hours?  I know it's hard to say one way or the other because every department is different, but I'm just looking to pick peoples' brains to see what you and other may think of adding overtime shifts to help cover the busier hours of the day.

You have brought up two different issues.

 

1) is it cheaper to use ot? This one varies greatly. What is the union contract require? I have seen some that pay straight time for prescheduled "ot" others pay double time on Sundays and holidays. In NY some retirement tiers require pension payments for ot, not for other tiers. We have also found that seniority has a factor, if the job has mostly Sr members it is cheaper to hire, mostly Jr members and ot is cheaper, so it's fluctuating over time.

 

2) You must define "peak hours". We are busiest during the day, many of these calls are slip and falls, alarms from workers, cooking, showers, changing co batteries, and so on. At night our volume drops dramatically. But the calls are more likely cardiac, respiratory, (I'd call earlier, but didn't want to bother you, so I waited till 2 am), drugs, serious mva's, and most working fires and almost all fatal and serious injury fires.

 

also in some cases the contract requires 10 - 24 hour shifts.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Bnechis