FDNY’s new entry exam asks about everything but firefighting

[Flashpoint 94]

Quote

FDNY candidates will take an entry exam that quizzes them on topics like African killer bees and on math questions such as comparing veggie chips to pretzels, but little on firefighting.

 

http://nypost.com/2016/03/20/fdnys-new-entry-exam-asks-about-everything-but-firefighting/

[FireMedic049 597]

Considering their recruit training program and probationary process, prior firefighting knowledge while likely beneficial, isn't specifically necessary for a recruit to succeed in that system.  To some extent, entry level civil service exams aren't specifically for testing job specific knowledge, but rather to evaluate a person's general knowledge, reading comprehension, ability to follow directions, ability to solve problems, etc.

 

Personally, I don't see a problem with this as long as the test is adequately assessing a candidate's mental aptitude for what is needed to complete recruit school and perform the job vs dumbing down the exam in order to achieve diversity at the expense of quality.

[AFS1970 504]

While I agree that entry level tests do not require knowledge that will be taught in training. I would be cautious because tests like this are generally only changed when someone has an agenda.

[FireMedic049 597]

33 minutes ago, AFS1970 said:

While I agree that entry level tests do not require knowledge that will be taught in training. I would be cautious because tests like this are generally only changed when someone has an agenda.

Oh, there's absolutely an agenda in play with the FDNY testing.  It's blatantly apparent to anyone who's been following the litigation referenced in the article and other recent actions, like the female that was allowed to graduate despite not passing a required physical test.

[x635 4,066]

The last Westchester firefighter exam was ridiculously easy, resulting in over 300 candidates achieving 100%.  The test was 50 questions, and most of the test was reading comprehension. When I took the test that got me on the job in the early 00's, there was a variety of question, including math that correlated to pump operations, mechanical aptitude, and following orders.  There were well over 100 questions on that exam.

 

It seem like exams are designed nowadays to allow people to pass, for a probable multitude of reasons. It used to be the exam was designed to get the best candidates for the job, now it's designed to give everybody passing scores. With more and more college educated people that are taking these basic grade school exams, it's making it even harder for people to have an edge on getting the job. A lot of people taking these exams don't even know how to use a screwdriver yet are getting 100's, and I'm serious about that.

 

I have no problem with departments trying to increase their diversity, but with the way they do it. It should be done with recruiting efforts, public education, and prep courses, not by dumbing down tests.

 

 

[FireMedic049 597]

3 minutes ago, x635 said:

I have no problem with departments trying to increase their diversity, but with the way they do it. It should be done with recruiting efforts, public education, and prep courses, not by dumbing down tests.

 

 

You have to keep in mind what's typically driving this.  Many municipalities are making significant changes as a result of the various lawsuits regarding hiring practices.  They are trying to avoid being the next one to be sued.  They are more worried about making it appear that they are trying to diversify than making sure they have quality recruits.

[mustang22_2002 21]

If they are trying to make it equal for everyone  , then they shouldn't issue 5 point bonus points  for residents...  how is that equal???

[BIGRED1 71]

2 hours ago, mustang22_2002 said:

If they are trying to make it equal for everyone  , then they shouldn't issue 5 point bonus points  for residents...  how is that equal???

I was thinking the same thing. Why give extra points for living somewhere? I can see veteran credits, but just living in the biggest city around? come on.

[FireMedic049 597]

5 hours ago, mustang22_2002 said:

If they are trying to make it equal for everyone  , then they shouldn't issue 5 point bonus points  for residents...  how is that equal???

They aren't talking about equality between residents/non-residents.  It's pretty much strictly about race and maybe some gender.

[firstdue 37]

3 hours ago, BIGRED1 said:

I was thinking the same thing. Why give extra points for living somewhere? I can see veteran credits, but just living in the biggest city around? come on.

 

How is it any different than most towns in Westchester hiring off resident list? 

[BIGRED1 71]

1 hour ago, firstdue said:

 

How is it any different than most towns in Westchester hiring off resident list? 

You can still be picked by another town or village. If NYC don't pick you, you have to wait till next test. Also those aren't "points", if you score a 90, you don;t go to 95 on the county list. You are most likely competing with other people in your town. your score is compared against them. Your not getting a advantage.

[firstdue 37]

3 minutes ago, BIGRED1 said:

You can still be picked by another town or village. If NYC don't pick you, you have to wait till next test. Also those aren't "points", if you score a 90, you don;t go to 95 on the county list. You are most likely competing with other people in your town. your score is compared against them. Your not getting a advantage.

 

I understand what you're saying but yes you do have a better advantage if you live in a town that goes off their resident list. There are many people that get passed over even with a high score because very few departments in Westchester hire off the county list. I agree with you it shouldn't be that you get an extra 5 points, in my opinion there should be no 5 points for residency and there shouldn't be town residency lists.

[FireMedic049 597]

6 hours ago, BIGRED1 said:

I was thinking the same thing. Why give extra points for living somewhere? I can see veteran credits, but just living in the biggest city around? come on.

The reason for the residency credit is pretty simple.  It gives the NYC residents a "small" edge over the out of towners.  

 

I suspect that historically the non-resident applicant pool is predominantly white & male.  The city is trying to inject diversity into the department.  The city has a large non-white population and a lot of females.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

[nfd2004 750]

I was a victim of Affirmative Action in Bridgeport, Ct. That was back in the mid 70s. Boston was also going through a similar case at the time.

 

Apparently according to these cities, some people just didn't look the way they wanted them to in order to do the job as a firefighter. So in order to do the job that I grew up wanting to do, "just like my father", I had to pack my bags and leave. Leaving my family, my friends, and the only city and home I ever knew.

 

 I had ended up in some city about 75 miles away. In a place I had never been before. As it turned out, it was my gain and Bridgeport's loss. Within a few months I was able to buy a beautiful home that I never would have found in that Bridgeport area.

 

 There were old buildings there just like Bridgeport and they even had a ladder truck with a driver on the back too, just like Bridgeport. With a little extra work, I was able to get promoted and today I enjoy my retirement after 30 years with that fire department.

 

 My father was a firefighter in Bridgeport too. And one of his captains was a guy who looked much different than the rest of the guys. But it didn't matter because he was very well respected by the members throughout the department. and unlike so many others who came later, he earned his promotion and it wasn't just given to him.

 

 I am totally AGAINST any type of Affirmative Action or job offerings based solely on the way a person looks. Although I am NOT any kind of racist and I have facts to prove that.

[AFS1970 504]

Especially now that departments are much more certification / classroom dependent, I think giving easy tests are actually not doing the recruits any favors in that the test does nothing to prepare them for the academy. Like it or not there will be a final exam and that one (at least in theory) is going to be based on knowledge that is learned and applied.

[antiquefirelt 994]

On the topic of residency points or rules, it seems that the taxpayers in large part would like to see their tax dollars stay in he local economy. Over and over the community tries to promote itself, but showing it's a great place to live and work, so by having it's own employees be residents, it promote this sense of community and keeps the money local, sadly it often doesn't allow for the most qualified applicant to get the jobs.

[nfd2004 750]

17 minutes ago, antiquefirelt said:

On the topic of residency points or rules, it seems that the taxpayers in large part would like to see their tax dollars stay in he local economy. Over and over the community tries to promote itself, but showing it's a great place to live and work, so by having it's own employees be residents, it promote this sense of community and keeps the money local, sadly it often doesn't allow for the most qualified applicant to get the jobs.

 

 I just wanted to add this.

 

Regardless of any additional points granted to residents, there is no law stating that those new firefighters MUST remain residents of that city or town once appointed. I could be wrong but I know of many places here in Connecticut where that is the case. Residents get the points added to their final score, but once appointed, these firefighters are free to move OUTSIDE of the city limits.

 

 For many cities it is purely an effort to boost the diversity numbers. Once that is accomplished the city doesn't care much if a guy/gal stays around.

 

 Things have certainly changed since my Probie Days. I was an outside resident and at my final interview with the chief of department, he told me I would be offered the job under one condition. That condition was that I was required to be a resident of that city. Just like all the other firefighters were required at the time.

 

 That is no longer the case. Anybody from Anywhere is allowed to apply to get the job. There are guys that live miles away now. However, there has been a growing trend on giving certain preference to hiring certain groups of people. The chief gets the final say on who he wants to hire. I can't speak for him but here is what I have noticed.

 

 1) Groups on candidates to meet a diversity hiring preference, particularly if the are residents. In this case, I know each one and they are all respected members of the department.

 

 2) Groups of local volunteer firefighters within the city's border. Again all well respected throughout the department.  

 

 With that in mind, today this policy makes it very difficult for someone such as myself, who got this job years ago, to have any chance of getting that job today.

 

 My advice is to take EVERY TEST POSSIBLE and don't give up. I took Six test before I got the job. And I know another guy who is now a Lt here in Connecticut who took "THIRTY ONE TEST", yes 31, test before he got the job. Another friend who is also a Lt now as well, traveled back and forth to Baltimore from Connecticut for each series of the test. He scored well but still didn't get it. But he's very happy now where he ended up.

 

 Best of Luck Guys

[Ladder44 73]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:41 PM, BIGRED1 said:

I was thinking the same thing. Why give extra points for living somewhere? I can see veteran credits, but just living in the biggest city around? come on.

 

 

Someone who works for a city they live in can then use their paycheck and put back into the city at stores restaurants ect

[newsbuff 286]

1 hour ago, Ladder44 said:

 

 

Someone who works for a city they live in can then use their paycheck and put back into the city at stores restaurants ect

 

I guess you didn't read any of the above comments.  There is no provision stating that you must stay in the City after being hired.  Many people move out of the city after getting on, especially because of NYC income tax.  Too damn expensive to live there.

[Ladder44 73]

2 hours ago, newsbuff said:

 

I guess you didn't read any of the above comments.  There is no provision stating that you must stay in the City after being hired.  Many people move out of the city after getting on, especially because of NYC income tax.  Too damn expensive to live there.

 

That was my politician answer......but no sorry I over read your comments........and yes unless you wanna live in moms basement you'll never be able to live there, raise a family and so on.

[lt411 145]

When you get hired on FDNY (or other NY city civil service public safety positions) you have to reside in the 5 boros of NYC or in the following counties: Putnam;Westchester;Rockland ;Orange; Nassau;Suffolk. As far as the NYC income tax- you  pay it whether you live in the city or not. The PD and FD unions took this point to court, saying that it was unfair (taxation without representation). The city then changed the "income tax" label to a "condition of employment fee". Basically, if you want the job, you pay the city income tax whether you live in the city or not. As far as working as a firefighter in NYC, and living in the suburbs (Putnam, in my case) it was worth the payment of this "fee", even though it wasn't right.

[newsbuff 286]

1 hour ago, lt411 said:

When you get hired on FDNY (or other NY city civil service public safety positions) you have to reside in the 5 boros of NYC or in the following counties: Putnam;Westchester;Rockland ;Orange; Nassau;Suffolk. As far as the NYC income tax- you  pay it whether you live in the city or not. The PD and FD unions took this point to court, saying that it was unfair (taxation without representation). The city then changed the "income tax" label to a "condition of employment fee". Basically, if you want the job, you pay the city income tax whether you live in the city or not. As far as working as a firefighter in NYC, and living in the suburbs (Putnam, in my case) it was worth the payment of this "fee", even though it wasn't right.

Ah, I wasn't aware of the sneaky(bullshit) way that they got around it.

 

Glad I moved south and got hired outside of the northeast.

Edited January 9, 2017 by newsbuff

[nfd2004 750]

12 hours ago, newsbuff said:

Ah, I wasn't aware of the sneaky(bullshit) way that they got around it.

 

Glad I moved south and got hired outside of the northeast.

 

"newsbuff", I took the FDNY exam way back in the early 70s. They had the same rules then. If hired, you must become a resident of the City or one of those counties.

 

"I AM NOT A FDNY Member, but I have MANY friends who "ARE, or WERE". I consider them to some of the BEST Firefighters in the World. I know that because I spent about 40 years of my life watching them perform their duties.

 

  I really wouldn't consider those members of the FDNY to be "Sneaky". Actually, speaking as a buff and Retired Brother Firefighter from a much smaller place - "I CONSIDER THEM TO BE GREAT".

[newsbuff 286]

48 minutes ago, nfd2004 said:

 

"newsbuff", I took the FDNY exam way back in the early 70s. They had the same rules then. If hired, you must become a resident of the City or one of those counties.

 

"I AM NOT A FDNY Member, but I have MANY friends who "ARE, or WERE". I consider them to some of the BEST Firefighters in the World. I know that because I spent about 40 years of my life watching them perform their duties.

 

  I really wouldn't consider those members of the FDNY to be "Sneaky". Actually, speaking as a buff and Retired Brother Firefighter from a much smaller place - "I CONSIDER THEM TO BE GREAT".

 

If you reread my post,  you might figure out that the people I was calling sneaky, was the city administration, NOT the rank and file members.  As stated above,  the unions tried to say "it isn't fair that we have to pay city income tax while not residing in the city." and they would be right as a stipulation that you pay income tax based on your home of record.   For NYC(Administration) to then just make it a "fee" for working there,  THAT is the BS part.

[nfd2004 750]

14 minutes ago, newsbuff said:

 

If you reread my post,  you might figure out that the people I was calling sneaky, was the city administration, NOT the rank and file members.  As stated above,  the unions tried to say "it isn't fair that we have to pay city income tax while not residing in the city." and they would be right as a stipulation that you pay income tax based on your home of record.   For NYC(Administration) to then just make it a "fee" for working there,  THAT is the BS part.

 

 Thanks for explaining that better to me.