Con Ed Code 3

[x635 4,066]

It seems Con Ed (gas) is the most requested resource by FD's today. Numerous IC's request Con Ed "expedite" fairly routinely. Which, if the fire department that responded to that scene code 3 and requesting Con Ed forthwith, then it must be the same level of emergency.

 

So, if an IC is requesting Con Ed on a rush, then shouldn't they be equipped to respond Code 3 as well, or at  least a specific unit that could provide the urgent temporary mitigation needed? Please know that I think we go "Code 3" way too often in this business. Or should specific emergency responders be specially trained and equipped to make a temporary intervention?

 

Side note: I've noticed all red Con Ed step vans labeled "Emergency" in the area recently, that have some added equipment.  I know they've been in Manhattan forever, but are they have these spec'd units in Westchester now?

[Dinosaur 844]

If the water department is requested on a rush for a water main break or Con Ed electric is requested for down wires on a rush, should they all have emergency lights and sirens too?

 

Sorry for the sarcasm but there are all ready too many vehicles with red lights and sirens.  Adding more won't help us get anywhere and it isn't about what an IC wants.  It's what the law says.  There's no provision in law for utility vehicles to be emergency vehicles.

The fire department is already there, they responded with lights and siren.  They can make the scene safe until Con Ed arrives whether within 14 minutes or 40 minutes.

[dwcfireman 656]

6 hours ago, Dinosaur said:

If the water department is requested on a rush for a water main break or Con Ed electric is requested for down wires on a rush, should they all have emergency lights and sirens too?

 

Sorry for the sarcasm but there are all ready too many vehicles with red lights and sirens.  Adding more won't help us get anywhere and it isn't about what an IC wants.  It's what the law says.  There's no provision in law for utility vehicles to be emergency vehicles.

The fire department is already there, they responded with lights and siren.  They can make the scene safe until Con Ed arrives whether within 14 minutes or 40 minutes.

 

I'm 100% with you on this one, Dinosaur.  Adding red lights and sirens to civilian operated vehicles will just cause more chaos.  And never mind the law, but the distance that most utility vehicles have to drive to assist the fire department heavily outweighs the need for RLS.  They would save maybe two minutes?  If the FD is already there to secure the scene and make it safe, then there is no need for utility services to speed to a situation that is already being mitigated.  It's not like they're second due for a working fire.

 

12 hours ago, x635 said:

Side note: I've noticed all red Con Ed step vans labeled "Emergency" in the area recently, that have some added equipment.  I know they've been in Manhattan forever, but are they have these spec'd units in Westchester now?

 

I have also noticed these red vans.  My understanding is that these vehicles are equipped to respond to major emergencies, such as a gas main that has been ripped open.  Essentially, these vans have the basic, necessary equipment to stop a situation from getting worse or stopping the situation all together (i.e. stopping the flow of gas and emergency clamping/closure of a line).

[AFS1970 504]

Two recent incidents that I was working in dispatch for bring to light the status of non emergency vehicles.

 

We had a situation with a phone wire, possibly a pole but PD had the street blocked and FD was on scene as well. We called our phone provider which is now Frontier. They are the worst to try and get anywhere quick. They can never give an eta. After a couple of calls they finally gave us the report that they would be at least 40 minutes longer as they were stuck in traffic on I-95. Would lights and sirens have helped, probably not, I-95 in our area at rush hour is packed solid and very little moves until the congestion eases up. The troopers and EMS that routinely respond there all have trouble even with lights and sirens.

 

The other day we had a call to check on a suicidal party. Police were primary with EMS staged in the area. Prior to going into the apartment dispatch got word that the subject had a dog in the apartment who was not very friendly. The PD Sgt. called for Animal Control. Animal control in our city is a division of the PD, they drive black and white trucks, they have the police patch on the truck but the lettering says animal control instead of police. These trucks have no sirens and only have amber lights. So they were called and responded but the PD Sgt wanted them to expedite, so he said on the air that he wanted them to come Code 3. This being an impossibility, we had a good laugh about it.

 

A while back there was a thread here about ASPCA Police responding Code 3 to calls, and the ensuing debate on if they even had any emergency roll at all. This will be the problem with adding more lights and sirens, that each agency will define their own criteria for use. I am sure if you sat police and fire chiefs down together they would question some of the response modes used by the other department, simply because looking at something from a different perspective inevitably yields a different answer. So Con Ed will eventually decide on their own to start using the lights for other calls. Just like our animal control rarely would use them unless they self define. This was the only time I ever remember them being requested Code 3.  So I would have to say we do not need to add more vehicles into the mix, some say there are already too many.

[Zippy39 8]

On September 17, 2016 at 9:37 AM, x635 said:

It seems Con Ed (gas) is the most requested resource by FD's today. Numerous IC's request Con Ed "expedite" fairly routinely. Which, if the fire department that responded to that scene code 3 and requesting Con Ed forthwith, then it must be the same level of emergency.

 

So, if an IC is requesting Con Ed on a rush, then shouldn't they be equipped to respond Code 3 as well, or at  least a specific unit that could provide the urgent temporary mitigation needed? Please know that I think we go "Code 3" way too often in this business. Or should specific emergency responders be specially trained and equipped to make a temporary intervention?

 

I've wondered this same thing myself. I've always considered utility companies quasi-government to some degree. When I was a Detective I worked with them on numerous cases of theft of electricity and always found their investigators (all retired cops) to be very professional and thorough. I'm kind of surprised they don't have some sort of emergency response group with lights and sirens although I agree the NYS VTL does not currently allow it. I think that's fairly easily remedied-just look at how many different groups of people are classified as peace officers for example. It'd be no more than adding one line to the Authorized Emergency Vehicle section. 

 

A guy that lives near me (well outside of Con Ed territory) drives a nice F250 with Con Ed's standard livery but with Emergency in red letters on the side, the NYPD/FDNY/Con Ed logos on the side and a full light bar (although I assume it's orange lights). I always wondered what his job was, I assume some type of response to gas and/or electric emergencies. I'll have to grab a photo of it, it's a nice rig actually. 

[craigs71 5]

Seems to be more than Amber lights to me...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_4NgMj7UA

[fdce54 15]

The red wagons are emergency electric splicers and respond to electric burnouts. If you see a red wagon in Westchester, it came up from Van Nest in the Bronx. As per the emergency stickers on the vehicles, they were put on certain vehicles such as the red wagons and the gas leak response vehicles to indicate to the police depts. that the vehicle has parkway permits  Though they now have emergency response groups in gas (2 vehicles) and electric that have sirens and red wig wags on the vehicles, must be a special permit. They respond to incidents and set up a Con Ed command post for communications. They are not there to mitigate the incident.  I should add that Con Ed is a private company and has no legal right to lights and sirens or to break into homes or other buildings. That is where the Fire depts and Police depts. come in.

Edited September 19, 2016 by fdce54

[AFS1970 504]

Here in CT the local OEM director can designate any unit he sees fit as an Auxiliary fire unit, which gives it the right to have red lights and a siren. I am not sure if that is the same in NY, but I bet there is a similar way around your statutes.

[wmetech 2]

4 hours ago, craigs71 said:

Seems to be more than Amber lights to me...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_4NgMj7UA

 

I know there's at least one of these "incident response" units in Westchester. It's a similar Silverado setup but it has the Westchester DES patch incorporated into the door patch. I've never seen them responding, but I pass it quite frequently. I've always been under the assumption that they were equipped with red lights and sirens. I recall being told they respond to larger scale emergencies and in situations where there are no available ConEd gas crews for response in the mandated timeframe.

[peeksafety4 5]

On 9/17/2016 at 10:18 PM, dwcfireman said:

 

I'm 100% with you on this one, Dinosaur.  Adding red lights and sirens to civilian operated vehicles will just cause more chaos.  And never mind the law, but the distance that most utility vehicles have to drive to assist the fire department heavily outweighs the need for RLS.  They would save maybe two minutes?  If the FD is already there to secure the scene and make it safe, then there is no need for utility services to speed to a situation that is already being mitigated.  It's not like they're second due for a working fire.

 

 

I have also noticed these red vans.  My understanding is that these vehicles are equipped to respond to major emergencies, such as a gas main that has been ripped open.  Essentially, these vans have the basic, necessary equipment to stop a situation from getting worse or stopping the situation all together (i.e. stopping the flow of gas and emergency clamping/closure of a line).

As a "First Responder" for gas emergency there have been many times when I arrived on scene and fd would ask me what should we do , OR , I've asked the fd to assist me with entry into a house when's there's blowing gas possible filling the house on a contractor damage with complete hesitation by the fd because lack of experience with natural gas emergencies.. I've been a volunteer firefighter for 10 yrs so much love to the FD.. my point is , in my opinion I believe Gas Emergency responders plus all supervisors,  electric and gas should be code 3.. Fd is great, but we are the professionals when it comes to utility emergencies...

[fdce54 15]

That's an electric operations vehicle.

[dwcfireman 656]

17 hours ago, peeksafety4 said:

As a "First Responder" for gas emergency there have been many times when I arrived on scene and fd would ask me what should we do , OR , I've asked the fd to assist me with entry into a house when's there's blowing gas possible filling the house on a contractor damage with complete hesitation by the fd because lack of experience with natural gas emergencies.. I've been a volunteer firefighter for 10 yrs so much love to the FD.. my point is , in my opinion I believe Gas Emergency responders plus all supervisors,  electric and gas should be code 3.. Fd is great, but we are the professionals when it comes to utility emergencies...

 

First off, when you get on scene the FD IC should be giving you an update on everything they HAVE done (which should include information like evacuation, monitoring, shutting a gas valve, and securing a safe perimeter) and then ask if you need anything else to be done.  My professional opinion, though.

 

But is slapping red lights and sirens on utility vehicles necessary?  Like I mentioned before, if you're coming from 15 or 20 minutes away, the RLS doesn't save you much time, never mind the extra risk and liability that the company and drivers take on for driving "Code 3."  A fair example is the weird experience I had in Georgia.  Driving on the highway around Atlanta I saw a yellow truck with red lights and a siren blaring.  I move to the right, and the rig blows by me.  My friend pipes up and asks, "Was that a tow truck?"  And, yes, it was.  A tow truck!  RLS through heavy traffic....for a fender bender that the FD was never called on.  Now, this tow truck driver could have caused a major wreck, mainly because he was driving without due regard (and I know some firefighters who do the same with fire trucks), but the point is we really don't need more people one the road driving with RLS to a scene that is already mitigated, especially if the scene is no longer an emergency (like a tree down on a power line and the road is shut down from wither side).

 

Yes, there are some utility emergencies that require an expedite from the utility companies that I can agree RLS would assist in a faster and safer mitigation of the situation.  Live wires down on an occupied vehicle with injured passengers is a great example of that.  I can actually recall this situation in my hometown, where we had to secure the scene and keep people away until NYSEG shut down the lines.  Another example is a contractor ripping up a gas main with an excavator.  The line needs to be shut down quickly.  Then again, how often do these incidents happen that would require a utility service to have RLS on any of their vehicles?

 

I will pose this question though: Would it be a good idea to teach firefighters how to shut off the gas in the streets to stop a major gas leak that is occurring?  Or is it more complicated than shutting valves on either side of the leak?

[FF402 133]

 

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 0:37 AM, dwcfireman said:

I will pose this question though: Would it be a good idea to teach firefighters how to shut off the gas in the streets to stop a major gas leak that is occurring?  Or is it more complicated than shutting valves on either side of the leak?

 

That's a good question. Anyone?

Edited September 21, 2016 by FF402

[fdce54 15]

First of all, I spent 42 years working for Con Ed in the Bronx and Westchester with the last 14 in Westchester as a supervisor in gas emergency until I retired last year. I responded to countless gas leak complaints both as a mechanic and as a supervisor. I am also a volunteer firefighter in Orange county. For me personally, the last thing I wanted to see is the fire dept on location when I arrived. They don't have the required equipment or training mandated by the PSC or the experience to investigate a leak. If it's on fire, I don't want anybody else than the fire dept but unfortunately the majority of firefighters lose interest quickly if it's not on fire. Then the paid depts. want to put the companies back in service asap and the volley companies in the day time Mon-Fri had what we call the paid firefighters responding, ie, the DPW members and their boss wants them back to work. So I would just prefer Con Ed to respond and if I need the services of the fire dept, I would request the FD.  At a damage that I responded to one time with the fire dept on location and blowing gas, the chief in charge told me they had shut off numerous valves to no good. I asked him how many valves and where they were. I got the deer in the headlights look back. I then went over and turned off the curb valve on the damaged service and secured the leak. They had turned off gas to numerouse homes and business, over 50. Restoration of gas is not simply turning the valves back on and is time consuming and costly.  A little info on responding. The New York State PSC mandates that all gas leak complaints must be responded to within 60 minutes. Con Ed has told the PSC that they will respond to 75% of the leak complaints within 30 minutes. That works well in the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens but can be difficult in Westchester. Con Ed will request the fire dept to respond if certain criterias of the leak complaint require it but the understanding is that it is to make safe by evacuating people in the area of the leak not to mitigate it.  The finest example of that was the damage in Scarsdale about 10 years ago where the contractor pulled the 1" high pressure service out of the regulator in the bsmt with ensuing high pressure gas filling up the house. The contractor called 911 and reported it but he did not evacuate his workers from the bldg. When the Scarsdale FD arrived, they evacuated the house where the damage was and the surrounding houses also. They opened windows in the house where the damage was to ventilate but being a cold day, the temperature dropped in the house and the thermostat called for heat and the house exploded but there were no injuries. Job well done. What would the outcome have been if they decided to look for valves? The curb valve was buried under construction material, main valves were further away in the intersections at the end of the street and can be and usually are difficult to open. In many older areas main valves can be much further apart than just in the immediate intersections and many are paved over. I was working the night of a gas main fire in Mamaroneck the night of a severe thunderstorm that took down a primary electric cable which grounded out on the ground burning a hole through a 4" steel medium pressure main that was four feet deep in the ground and igniting the gas. Such is the power of primary electric. Looking at our maps, I saw the location of the main valve but could not locate it, only a water valve. I had my construction crew start excavating in the area of where the main was (it was a one way feed down a dead end street) and had my two leak responders start searching for surrounding main valves to secure this leak and fire, a total of five more valves. While we were trying to locate theses valves, the water company responded to mark out the water main and services. After about 45 minutes, he came over to me and stated they did not have a water main any where near where the water valve box was. I had my crew open up that box to see if it was our gas main valve but it was filled with asphalt. I had my crew excavate that box down to the valve and it was our gas valve which we then shut to secure the leak and extinguish the fire. That took 2 1/2-3 hours to do from our time of arrival. Definitely unacceptable in my book and I spent the next hour apoligizing to the chief who was a genuine nice guy. It turned out the road had been repaved about 2 years prior. The contractor had damaged the gas valve box, did not report it and replaced it with a water valve box he had. You never know what you will find. Now back to the Scarsdale incident.  If I recall correctly, the FD said from the time of their arrival to the explosion was about 5 minutes. The first Con Ed responder, a supervisor, was able to locate and t/off the curb valve stemming the gas that was feeding the fire. As I stated earlier, the PCS does not want code 3 response and I personally did not want code 3 response having driven fire dept rigs code 3 and knowing the dangers. So my opinion and the way I understood the policy, the fire dept is to evacuate and make safe. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by fdce54

[fdce54 15]

To add to my above post, as per teaching firefighters to shut off gas in the street. Did you just walk up to the firehouse one day and say I want to be a firefighter, then was invited in, given gear, told you were the OV and then told to get on the rig, we've got a run? No, of course not. Whether paid or volley, their is mandated training that you must pass. Then their is requalifying, maintaining of the equipment etc, etc. Not to mention the experience factor. Can't teach that. Well the same thing exists in Con Ed. Contrary to popular opinion, we're not just pilot light lighters or as a Mt Vernon PD Sgt once said to me, "you're nothing but a bunch of ditch diggers."  There is required training, requalifying and certain equipment to use and maintain. Every Con Ed gas truck has a CGI on it that costs $3500.00. It has to be calibrated monthly and every time the batteries are replaced. If you want to play Con Ed, you have to play by the rules and have to have the same equipment that Con Ed has. Who is going to pay for those CGIs you'll have to have. Who is going to calibrate them when required. The calibrating device is rather expensive too. Who is going to arrange and pay for the training and requalifying? Con Ed gas comes under Federal DOT guidelines. As I stated in my above post about the FD that shut off a bunch of gas main valves trying to secure a leak and in error (and it was the FDNY, not a volley company). If a Con Ed mechanic operates a valve in error whether it be a main valve or curb valve as per DOT guidelines, he is immediately taken off duty, taken for drug and alcohol testing and remains off duty until completion of the investigation even if he was directed  or ordered to do so.  It's a serious business, not a game.

[x635 4,066]

@fdce54 thanks for that excellent insight and sharing it with us! You've definitely enlightened me.  

[dwcfireman 656]

10 hours ago, fdce54 said:

Then their is requalifying, maintaining of the equipment etc, etc. Not to mention the experience factor. Can't teach that.

 

This is a major factor why firefighters are generally not trained to properly deal with gas and electrical emergencies.  It takes a great deal of training, qualification, re-qualification, and maintaining the equipment to the mandatory standards; It's much like the standards for bail-out devices or EMS certifications.  It's a great deal of work, especially for volleys who barely have time these days to have them time put out fires or respond to car accidents.  Then again, if firefighters really want to be able to do the job,, they will take the training and maintain their currency.

 

And, as far as the skills go, you're right.  You can't teach it.  It takes a keen eye and a smart mind to identify curb valves versus main valves and understanding where they are located, never mind knowing the construction of the gas line system and what kind of pressures it's producing.  Only over time and responding to these incidents will you eventually become comfortable with how the system works and and how to mitigate a situation properly (I work in aviation, which is HEAVILY regulated.  I know the pain!).

[Dinosaur 844]

On 9/21/2016 at 0:17 PM, fdce54 said:

First of all, I spent 42 years working for Con Ed in the Bronx and Westchester with the last 14 in Westchester as a supervisor in gas emergency until I retired last year. I responded to countless gas leak complaints both as a mechanic and as a supervisor. I am also a volunteer firefighter in Orange county. For me personally, the last thing I wanted to see is the fire dept on location when I arrived. They don't have the required equipment or training mandated by the PSC or the experience to investigate a leak. If it's on fire, I don't want anybody else than the fire dept but unfortunately the majority of firefighters lose interest quickly if it's not on fire. Then the paid depts. want to put the companies back in service asap and the volley companies in the day time Mon-Fri had what we call the paid firefighters responding, ie, the DPW members and their boss wants them back to work. So I would just prefer Con Ed to respond and if I need the services of the fire dept, I would request the FD.  At a damage that I responded to one time with the fire dept on location and blowing gas, the chief in charge told me they had shut off numerous valves to no good. I asked him how many valves and where they were. I got the deer in the headlights look back. I then went over and turned off the curb valve on the damaged service and secured the leak. They had turned off gas to numerouse homes and business, over 50. Restoration of gas is not simply turning the valves back on and is time consuming and costly.  A little info on responding. The New York State PSC mandates that all gas leak complaints must be responded to within 60 minutes. Con Ed has told the PSC that they will respond to 75% of the leak complaints within 30 minutes. That works well in the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens but can be difficult in Westchester. Con Ed will request the fire dept to respond if certain criterias of the leak complaint require it but the understanding is that it is to make safe by evacuating people in the area of the leak not to mitigate it.  The finest example of that was the damage in Scarsdale about 10 years ago where the contractor pulled the 1" high pressure service out of the regulator in the bsmt with ensuing high pressure gas filling up the house. The contractor called 911 and reported it but he did not evacuate his workers from the bldg. When the Scarsdale FD arrived, they evacuated the house where the damage was and the surrounding houses also. They opened windows in the house where the damage was to ventilate but being a cold day, the temperature dropped in the house and the thermostat called for heat and the house exploded but there were no injuries. Job well done. What would the outcome have been if they decided to look for valves? The curb valve was buried under construction material, main valves were further away in the intersections at the end of the street and can be and usually are difficult to open. In many older areas main valves can be much further apart than just in the immediate intersections and many are paved over. I was working the night of a gas main fire in Mamaroneck the night of a severe thunderstorm that took down a primary electric cable which grounded out on the ground burning a hole through a 4" steel medium pressure main that was four feet deep in the ground and igniting the gas. Such is the power of primary electric. Looking at our maps, I saw the location of the main valve but could not locate it, only a water valve. I had my construction crew start excavating in the area of where the main was (it was a one way feed down a dead end street) and had my two leak responders start searching for surrounding main valves to secure this leak and fire, a total of five more valves. While we were trying to locate theses valves, the water company responded to mark out the water main and services. After about 45 minutes, he came over to me and stated they did not have a water main any where near where the water valve box was. I had my crew open up that box to see if it was our gas main valve but it was filled with asphalt. I had my crew excavate that box down to the valve and it was our gas valve which we then shut to secure the leak and extinguish the fire. That took 2 1/2-3 hours to do from our time of arrival. Definitely unacceptable in my book and I spent the next hour apoligizing to the chief who was a genuine nice guy. It turned out the road had been repaved about 2 years prior. The contractor had damaged the gas valve box, did not report it and replaced it with a water valve box he had. You never know what you will find. Now back to the Scarsdale incident.  If I recall correctly, the FD said from the time of their arrival to the explosion was about 5 minutes. The first Con Ed responder, a supervisor, was able to locate and t/off the curb valve stemming the gas that was feeding the fire. As I stated earlier, the PCS does not want code 3 response and I personally did not want code 3 response having driven fire dept rigs code 3 and knowing the dangers. So my opinion and the way I understood the policy, the fire dept is to evacuate and make safe. 

 

Great insight.  I was talking to two Con Ed guys today and they echo your sentiment that the last thing the FD should be doing is turning valves in the street.  They may inadvertently turn off a transmission main instead of the distribution main supplying the house in question and that could impact THOUSANDS depending on where it is.  They also said that they've been finding valve boxes completely paved over, not just hidden by errant water valve boxes. 

Just like we shouldn't climb poles to disconnect power lines, we shouldn't be messing with gas infrastructure.  The results could be costly both in time and money and public safety.

 

In my 35 years I never had a complaint with the response time of Con Ed responders, especially gas crews.

 

[Dinosaur 844]

Back to the subject of lights and sirens, the two Con Ed guys I was speaking to today said the "Incident Response Unit" or "Emergency Command Unit" or whatever they may say are most likely members of the Emergency Response Group.  They have 'em in gas, electric, steam and substations.  None of them are authorized to have red lights or sirens but, just like we have some people with "extra" bells and whistles, some of these guys may have additional lights.  These are the guys that will hold the fort until more crews can arrive and they're trained in ICS and are the SME from their part of the company.  The substations guys are trained in firefighting at TEEX and deal with the oil filled transformer fires and other big events like that.  They can all set up one of the Con Ed ICS command boards and be your point of contact until more help arrives.