Tax Watch: Hartsdale fire's undisclosed thousands

[Flashpoint 94]

Quote

In March, Hartsdale community activist Mona Fraitag posed what she thought was a simple question. How did the volunteer Hartsdale Fire Co. spend $17,000 it has received in 2015 from a New York tax on home insurance policies?

 

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.lohud.com/story/money/personal-finance/taxes/david-mckay-wilson/2016/09/14/taxwatch-hartsdale-funds/89917792/

[Oaks 18]

It's Hartsdale's decision how they spend their 2% money. Not anyone else's.

[FF1 172]

1 hour ago, Oaks said:

It's Hartsdale's decision how they spend their 2% money. Not anyone else's.

that's actually false. there are laws that specifically outline how 2% and fundraising money can be spent. 

[velcroMedic1987 330]

1 hour ago, Oaks said:

It's Hartsdale's decision how they spend their 2% money. Not anyone else's.

 

Absolutely not true.  They may have far more latitude than with tax dollars but they are accountable to the taxpayer on their expenditures.

 

[mfc2257 464]

With regard to 2% money there are absolutely guidelines on how the money can be spent.  In fact, there is even a difference between how "new" and "old" 2% money can be spent.

[antiquefirelt 994]

3 hours ago, Oaks said:

It's Hartsdale's decision how they spend their 2% money. Not anyone else's.

So who is Hartsdale? Is it the volunteer members (6 is it?) or the FD as a whole which includes taxpayer funded career personnel? Or is it the community leaders, or the taxpayer themselves? 

 

What is sad is the failure to recognize that FD's or any organization that takes money that is either or tax or portion of another payment should be 100% accounted for and used in an appropriate manner. FD's provide a service to the community, thus they serve the community, not themselves as it appears in so many cases.  

 

This is the kind of stuff that drives a huge wedge between career and volunteer firefighters. This makes us all look bad, when it's thankfully a handful of the total US Fire Service. No wonder people question why providing fire services is so expensive, they see how much money is spent frivolously by some and think we all do it.

[GreatPlains588 131]

20 minutes ago, antiquefirelt said:

So who is Hartsdale? Is it the volunteer members (6 is it?) or the FD as a whole which includes taxpayer funded career personnel? Or is it the community leaders, or the taxpayer themselves? 

 

What is sad is the failure to recognize that FD's or any organization that takes money that is either or tax or portion of another payment should be 100% accounted for and used in an appropriate manner. FD's provide a service to the community, thus they serve the community, not themselves as it appears in so many cases.  

 

This is the kind of stuff that drives a huge wedge between career and volunteer firefighters. This makes us all look bad, when it's thankfully a handful of the total US Fire Service. No wonder people question why providing fire services is so expensive, they see how much money is spent frivolously by some and think we all do it.

 

This 2% money in Hartsdale is split between the career and volunteer members, so it seems there are issues on both sides.

[SOUSGT 357]

1 hour ago, mfc2257 said:

With regard to 2% money there are absolutely guidelines on how the money can be spent.  In fact, there is even a difference between how "new" and "old" 2% money can be spent.

 

From the NYS Department of Financial Services: 

Question: What can fire tax funds be used for?

Answer: Except as otherwise provided by a special act, fire tax proceeds may be used for any purpose which the members of the fire department or company determine to be for the use and benefit of the department or company as a whole.

Some examples of how the funds can be used include: department social functions - such as installation dinners, picnics, banquets, holiday parties; appliances, furniture, televisions for the firehouse; dress & parade uniforms, hats, boots, jackets, t-shirts, turn out gear, and equipment for members of the department; offset of costs from life or disability insurance (must be group policies); and office equipment such as computers and fax machines. 

If the funds are designated to be received by an exempt or benevolent association created by a special act of the New York State Legislature, the use of the monies is limited to those purposes set forth in the special act. 

For further clarification on this issue contact the Office of the State Comptroller, Division of Legal Services, at (518) 474-3444.

However the articles of incorporation or rules of the individual organizations may be more restrictive. 

 

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

What are you talking about 2% money refund from the Insurance company's received each year or tax money from the tax payer ?Two different things

[SOUSGT 357]

1 hour ago, PCFD ENG58 said:

What are you talking about 2% money refund from the Insurance company's received each year or tax money from the tax payer ?Two different things

The DFS references 2% money but they call it Fire Tax. 

 

[antiquefirelt 994]

2 hours ago, PCFD ENG58 said:

What are you talking about 2% money refund from the Insurance company's received each year or tax money from the tax payer ?Two different things

Not really that different, if the money charged to the insurance companies requires that 2% to be raised from the rate payers so that it can be given to the departments, it's a defacto tax. 

[BFD1054 1,552]

Not to sound like a d**k, but why shouldn't all of the 2% monies go to the career side of HFD?

I am a volunteer FF, so I am in no way bashing Vol FFs, nor trying to start a vol vs career fight.

I am just truly curious as to why a Vol company with 6 members get this money? To my knowledge, the Vols in Hartsdale are not actually involved in emergency responses. Perhaps I am incorrect?

I am sure this is the case in other depts as well. 

Again, not to hijack the thread or start a pissing match. I'm just trying to figure things out. 

[410 31]

49 minutes ago, BFD1054 said:

Not to sound like a d**k, but why shouldn't all of the 2% monies go to the career side of HFD?

I am a volunteer FF, so I am in no way bashing Vol FFs, nor trying to start a vol vs career fight.

I am just truly curious as to why a Vol company with 6 members get this money? To my knowledge, the Vols in Hartsdale are not actually involved in emergency responses. Perhaps I am incorrect?

I am sure this is the case in other depts as well. 

Again, not to hijack the thread or start a pissing match. I'm just trying to figure things out. 

In a combination department the money is split on a pro rated basis between the career and volunteer side

[BFD1054 1,552]

15 minutes ago, 410 said:

In a combination department the money is split on a pro rated basis between the career and volunteer side

 

Interesting, thank you.

[EMSLt 27]

Quote

 Hartsdale Fire Chief Ed Rush told Tax Watch the funds are used for "day-to-day living expenses" at the fire house, such as coffee, milk and newspapers. The money has funded new televisions and couches at the station. It also provides what Rush called "a small thank-you payment" to paid firefighters when they retire, and live on their public pensions. He declined to state just how much as "a small thank-you payment" was worth in Hartsdale.

 

So, there's no better way to spend the money then to buy coffee and newspapers for well-paid firefighters?  At least the Chief's honest. Seems like the Commissioners are also the volunteers.

[FFPCogs 863]

And all this surprises anybody????

 

As I'm learning, out here in NM we also have a "Fire Fund" derived from a percentage of insurance premiums. The difference, at least as far as I can tell, is that FDs out here have to meet operational benchmarks to receive funds. The more benchmarks reached the more an FD gets. And out here it is based in large part on your ISO rating. To help manage this fund and it's use there is a division within the State Fire Marshal's office that goes around the state to:

1) Help departments increase their rating

2) Watchdog the money to ensure it is getting spent where, by law, it's supposed to be spent... on the operational side of things  i.e. rigs, training, equipment, LOSAPs ect.

 

Now I'm sure there are pitfalls and areas where oversight and such could be improved within the system here, but it strikes me that they have the right idea. Whatever you want to call it, money such as this should be dedicated solely to improving the operational capabilities of a department and yes there should be benchmarks to be reached to keep the tap flowing. 

 

Let me just clarify that I'm not accusing anyone in Hartsdale or anywhere else of any wrongdoing, but I think this is another case of traditions not in step with the realities and needs of today. Yes it's the way it's always been done, but for any number of reasons, the way it's always been done might need to be changed.  In a time when many departments, career and volunteer alike, struggle with operational shortcomings, couldn't that money be better spent on dealing with those shortcomings rather than:

"department social functions - such as installation dinners, picnics, banquets, holiday parties; appliances, furniture, televisions for the firehouse; dress & parade uniforms, hats, boots, jackets, t-shirts" ??

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by FFPCogs

[calhobs 110]

I don't understand. If Hartsdale has six members and they do not respond to emergency calls. How are they even a department. Why are they even given that money. It makes no sense. If that payment of day to day living is for the volunteers that is disgusting. Why are they even allowed in the fire house. Is this a legit combo department or are they hangout to just watch TV read the paper and drink coffee. If that's the case sign me up for that thank you pension!

Edited September 17, 2016 by calhobs

[gamewell45 258]

6 hours ago, calhobs said:

I don't understand. If Hartsdale has six members and they do not respond to emergency calls. How are they even a department. Why are they even given that money. It makes no sense. If that payment of day to day living is for the volunteers that is disgusting. Why are they even allowed in the fire house. Is this a legit combo department or are they hangout to just watch TV read the paper and drink coffee. If that's the case sign me up for that thank you pension!

Do you know for a fact that there are only six volunteer members?  Do we know it to be factual that they do not respond on emergency calls??  Why shouldn't the volunteers have access to the fire station they serve out of??  Do you know for a fact that all they do is "hang out to just watch TV, read the paper and drink coffee??  IF you want to enjoy that so-called "thank you pension" then you will have to no doubt move to Hartsdale and join the volunteer fire company.  Either way, there are a lot of questions that need to be answered before you begin to cast aspersions upon the volunteers and department as a whole.  

[calhobs 110]

On 9/17/2016 at 9:53 PM, gamewell45 said:

Do you know for a fact that there are only six volunteer members?  Do we know it to be factual that they do not respond on emergency calls??  Why shouldn't the volunteers have access to the fire station they serve out of??  Do you know for a fact that all they do is "hang out to just watch TV, read the paper and drink coffee??  IF you want to enjoy that so-called "thank you pension" then you will have to no doubt move to Hartsdale and join the volunteer fire company.  Either way, there are a lot of questions that need to be answered before you begin to cast aspersions upon the volunteers and department as a whole.  

No I don't know that to be fact, I am going by what members here are saying.  If you know for sure an answer to theses questions please feel free to answer them. I am judgeing my response by what I have read hear. Now rereading what I said perhaps  jumped the gun and for that I am sorry. But if true. There is a very serious problem 

[Flashpoint 94]

If I read the article correctly, it seems the coffee, milk, newspapers, retirement bonus, etc are for the paid staff. It also seems that a couple of the commissioners are the active volunteers.