Question Regarding 4 Alarm Fire in Bronxville, New York - August 2, 2016

[61MACKBR1 222]

Interesting question (although I know the answer is that the Yonkers Fire Department is NOT on the Mutual Aid listing for the Town of Eastchester FD (Eastchester, Bronxville, and Tuckahoe), but if you look at where today's 4 Alarm Fire was (12 Elm Rock Road, Bronxville, NY), does it make any sense, when lives and property are in danger, that you call in Mutual Aid for this location from first New Rochelle Station 2 (Engine 22 and Ladder 12), which is approximately a 13 Minute response time to the scene, then to call in Mount Vernon Engine 205, which is approximately 13 minutes to the fire scene, then to call in Scarsdale Engine 56 which is approximately 14 minutes to the fire scene, and Greenville Ladder 4, which is approximately 17 minutes to the fire scene, AHEAD of Yonkers FD Squad 11, which is approximately 6 minutes from the fire scene (less than half the response time of the first due Mutual Aid Company), and Yonkers FD Engine 312 and Tower Ladder 75 (and Battalion 2) which is approximately 10 minutes from the fire scene?

 

In my opinion, when lives and property are at hand, fast response times are critical. In this case (again, in my opinion) the Mutual Aid System is severely broken, and thus the topic of Regionalizing Fire Companies throughout Westchester County needs to be brought up again.

 

Here is the run assignment as I believe it to have been"

 

12 Elm Rock Rd

Fire in a 2 1/2 story PD

09:25: Reported fire out the windows on the 2nd floor

09:28: C-2103 - 10-75

09:31: C-2102 - 2nd alarm, fire through the roof

09:38: C-2102 - Switching to exterior operations

10:18: C-2102 - FAST team going to work, requesting additional FAST

10:23: C-2102 - Crews have vented the roof, heavy fire pushing from the attic

10:36: C-2101 - Still doubtful, heavy fire

Assignment:
E-27,29,30,31 FAST
L-16, TL-17
C-2102,2103

2nd Alarm:
New Rochelle E-22, L-12

3rd Alarm:
Mt. Vernon E-205, L-62 FAST

4th Alarm:
Scarsdale E-56
Greenville L-4

Relocates:
Pelham E-5 to Eastchester HQ
Pelham Manor TL-3 to Eastchester HQ

[STAT213 332]

That makes zero sense. But it's motivated by politics, not common sense. 

 

Riddle me this. Why is it that departments think that one engine and one truck is enough manpower for an extra alarm? 

 

You're calling for more help. Why not call for ENOUGH help? 

[fire patrol nyc 153]

It's westchester....nuf said......

[vodoly 535]

It happens everywhere Trust me 

[spin_the_wheel 460]

4 hours ago, STAT213 said:

That makes zero sense. But it's motivated by politics, not common sense. 

 

Riddle me this. Why is it that departments think that one engine and one truck is enough manpower for an extra alarm? 

 

You're calling for more help. Why not call for ENOUGH help? 

"One and one" to the scene is pretty much the norm in most places when an extra alarm is struck.  Most of the time one and one is also sent to standby at a departments quarters as well.  The next alarm the units standing by move up to the scene and a new set of "one and one" go to the firehouse.  Not everywhere but most places.

 

You also have to consider these are career departments.  Taking one and one form some of the smaller ones may leave that department with nothing left of on duty personnel until a recall or a mutual aid to their department is requested. 

 

Also they will only call other career departments so this limits the amount of assistance they can call many times. 

[Disaster_Guy 96]

Rumor is that Yonkers Battalion Chiefs - who come along with the 1 & 1 (a Battalion 3 is sometimes placed into service back in YO) - like taking over operations/command at the fire scene. When you don't play nice in somebody else's sandbox they don't have to invite you back to play...

[PHIL78 129]

7 hours ago, Disaster_Guy said:

Rumor is that Yonkers Battalion Chiefs - who come along with the 1 & 1 (a Battalion 3 is sometimes placed into service back in YO) - like taking over operations/command at the fire scene. When you don't play nice in somebody else's sandbox they don't have to invite you back to play...

 

Totally false (except for them putting Batt 3 in service when one of the other Batt goes out of town).

Edited August 3, 2016 by PHIL78

[Tranz426 22]

7 hours ago, Disaster_Guy said:

Rumor is that Yonkers Battalion Chiefs - who come along with the 1 & 1 (a Battalion 3 is sometimes placed into service back in YO) - like taking over operations/command at the fire scene. When you don't play nice in somebody else's sandbox they don't have to invite you back to play...

Total BS.  We have a busy, large enough sandbox of our own to worry about.  

A battalion chief responds anytime more than one unit is toned out, In or Out of the city. Its basically the start of incident command and to protect the members.  So yes, any units out for a duration of time need to be replaced on recalls, including the chief.

When we receive a call for mutual aid, 9 times out of 10, we are requested to the scene.  Not just to cover the fire house.  Sometimes on arrival, the incident commander asks the chief for advice.  

 

So before you start spreading rumors, get the facts straight 

 

 

[SECTMB 612]

Since I am not that well versed in the make up of the paid departments in Westchester, perhaps I could get some clarification from others more familiar with the make up of the various departments involved.

 

It was my understanding that of all the Westchester paid depts Yonkers has the most resources and personnel per apparatus than the other depts.  So, if they are one of your border depts wouldn't it be to your dept's and your citizens best interest to have them on your M/A list?

 

At this particular incident, travel times of your M/A units appears to be moot since the switch to exterior operations occurred 13 minutes after dispatch, 10 minutes after the incident commander declared the 10-75 and just 7 minutes after requesting the 2nd alarm.

 

My other question is how do Pelham and Pelham Manor provide M/A? Don't they both operate just 1+1 with minimal staffing?  When one provides an out of town engine and the other a ladder, do they then do automatic response to each others calls till the M/A is resolved? 

 

 

[ptwatson 82]

I believe it all goes by the list 60 control has. Each department lists which departments in which order they want mutual aid from.  NR does border a majority of Eastchester and has been number 1 on there mutual aid list for a long time.

[61MACKBR1 222]

6 hours ago, ptwatson said:

I believe it all goes by the list 60 control has. Each department lists which departments in which order they want mutual aid from.  NR does border a majority of Eastchester and has been number 1 on there mutual aid list for a long time.

 

Yes, true, BUT for a job in Bronxville, definitely Yonkers FD Station 11 (and even Yonkers FD Station 12) are by far the closest Paid Fire Department, to that portion of the Eastchester Fire District. 

 

Something is totally a miss regarding Eastchester's Mutual Aid listing given to 60 Control, specifically pertaining to Bronxville. Maybe Chief Grogan and the Eastchester Board of Fire Commissioners can 'chime in' on this (I suspect that once those very rich home/property owners in the Village of Bronxville get wind of this, the Eastchester Board of Fire Commissioners and Chief Grogan will have allot of explaining to do !!)

[PHIL78 129]

4 hours ago, 61MACKBR1 said:

 

Yes, true, BUT for a job in Bronxville, definitely Yonkers FD Station 11 (and even Yonkers FD Station 12) are by far the closest Paid Fire Department, to that portion of the Eastchester Fire District. 

 

Something is totally a miss regarding Eastchester's Mutual Aid listing given to 60 Control, specifically pertaining to Bronxville. Maybe Chief Grogan and the Eastchester Board of Fire Commissioners can 'chime in' on this (I suspect that once those very rich home/property owners in the Village of Bronxville get wind of this, the Eastchester Board of Fire Commissioners and Chief Grogan will have allot of explaining to do !!)

 

They should start by explaining to them why they are so understaffed that they need 4 departments to put out a house fire. 

[Dinosaur 844]

On 8/2/2016 at 2:41 PM, STAT213 said:

That makes zero sense. But it's motivated by politics, not common sense. 

 

Riddle me this. Why is it that departments think that one engine and one truck is enough manpower for an extra alarm? 

 

You're calling for more help. Why not call for ENOUGH help? 

 

There isn't "ENOUGH help" in any Westchester County department anymore.  I don't care if it's paid or volunteer; the first due doesn't meet NFPA1710 or 1720 anywhere but perhaps Yonkers and even Yonkers has been cut back. 

At this fire and at most other fires there is no staging of additional resources; everyone is working and then they put the FAST to work so there's NOBODY left if something untoward happens.  There should be some resources available at the scene to go to work when it gets ahead of you.  We don't do that and it's going to bite us in the rear one of these days.  Luck only lasts for so long.

As for 1&1 on additional alarms, when it's all you can get...  It's what it is my friend. 

Contrary to this experience, consider the recent fire in Staten Island that went to a 6th Alarm.  I would guess that's close to 250 FDNY members.  How many did Bronxville have on their 4th?  Or even on the initial response.

The system is broken but nobody, and I mean nobody, will say that the emperor has no clothes!

 

 

[STAT213 332]

That's where I was headed with my comments. Everybody has a Tshirt from FDNY, a comment to add on their new trucks and their videos bookmarked. But no one will emulate their safe practices in terms of fire ground staffing. 

 

 

[AFS1970 504]

for the 27 years I have been dispatching an additional alarm has always been 1 & 1. Interestingly enough if part of that assignment is missing, we do not fill it out with something else. So if the initial box was a 2 truck box the second alarm gets the third and a third alarm will be just a single engine. We do not add second local engine or call a truck from another nearby town as a routine measure.

 

Although in my VFD days I did go as the 4th alarm truck to a fire once, although that consisted of staging then being the RIT (in a manner of speaking) then relocating to station coverage.

 

I never gave this much thought until this thread, but perhaps additional alarms should be thought of in terms of manpower and not apparatus. So that if you need 8 firefighters it does not matter if they are on 1 engine & 1 truck or 2 engines or 2 trucks unless there is some specific need for apparatus, like water supply or master streams.