Greenville,NY Fire Department (Orange) DISBANDED

[Bnechis 3,961]

1 hour ago, huzzie59 said:

"From Tooth To Tail".  Are the supporting personnel in an army still called "Soldiers"?

Or only the ones firing the bullets?

 

Those "support" soldiers still have to qualify on the range, get thru chemical training and then while driving supply trucks they have had to fight, some being killed, other injured and some captured. They are placed in support rolls because that's where they are needed and that's where they will perform best, not because they are unwilling or unable to do it!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

 

7 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

If not enough certified "INTERIOR FIREFIGHTERS" show up, who gets to go in and fight the fire or conduct searches in the early stages ? What is Plan B if that's the case. ?

 

How does that affect the "Two In/Two Out Rule" ?

 

 

 

I know the answer to this one Willy!  When you don't have enough actual Firefighters, you can still hit it hard from the yard!

[Newburgher 241]

9 hours ago, huzzie59 said:

"From Tooth To Tail".  Are the supporting personnel in an army still called "Soldiers"?

Or only the ones firing the bullets?

 

Are they trained and certified the same as soldiers?

[BBBMF 158]

When those soldiers who are standing fast are called to service they will be capable of shooting the enemy because they're all fully trained and qualified.  When these so called "fully trained exterior firefighters are called to push into a dwelling fire, he or she cannot.

[gamewell45 258]

On 6/4/2016 at 9:47 AM, Bnechis said:

So then let's call it what it really is...

 

you ou have Firefighters and you have Firefighter Helpers.

 

Barry, I googled your term "Firefighter Helpers" and there is nothing listed under that.  Therefore I'm going to conclude that it is nothing more then a divisive term you threw into the mix.  The term "exterior" is more appropriate in this case and I'm sure you are well aware of what Exterior Firefighters roles are in the fire service.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

2 minutes ago, gamewell45 said:

Barry, I googled your term "Firefighter Helpers" and there is nothing listed under that.  Therefore I'm going to conclude that it is nothing more then a divisive term you threw into the mix.  The term "exterior" is more appropriate in this case and I'm sure you are well aware of what Exterior Firefighters roles are in the fire service.

That's interesting, because I searched NFPA 1001: Standard for Fire Fighter Professional Qualifications for the term "Exterior Firefighter" and there is no qualification listed under that...

[gamewell45 258]

Just now, SageVigiles said:

That's interesting, because I searched NFPA 1001: Standard for Fire Fighter Professional Qualifications for the term "Exterior Firefighter" and there is no qualification listed under that...

So are you saying you've never heard the term before?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Of course I've heard the term, my point is that it is a misleading term used so that a department can advertise they have "100 Firefighters" when really there are only 25 are qualified to actually fight a fire.

[gamewell45 258]

11 minutes ago, SageVigiles said:

Of course I've heard the term, my point is that it is a misleading term used so that a department can advertise they have "100 Firefighters" when really there are only 25 are qualified to actually fight a fire.

Ok that's fine; my point was there is no need to use a divisive term as the OP did in his post.  If in fact people feel this is a misleading term, then perhaps they should push to make it state law where any FD has to list by category and job function what each firefighter does and make it available to the public.  That will solve the advertising problem.

[FireMedic049 597]

10 hours ago, gamewell45 said:

Ok that's fine; my point was there is no need to use a divisive term as the OP did in his post.  If in fact people feel this is a misleading term, then perhaps they should push to make it state law where any FD has to list by category and job function what each firefighter does and make it available to the public.  That will solve the advertising problem.

Perhaps we should since some in the fire service insist on misleading the public about their department's capabilities.

[nfd2004 750]

I have always been under the impression that the term "Firefighter" or "Fire Officer" covers it all. So where should the certifications and qualifications end.

 

Do we break it down to a firefighter who might be qualified to force a door but not open a roof ? Or a guy who is only qualified to be a backup guy on a hose line and not be on the nozzle.

 

Let's not try to fool ourselves. Or worse, the people we are suppose to serve. "Either you're in it or you're not". A fire truck full of "Exterior Firefighters" will do absolutely NO GOOD to the occupant who is unconscious from heat and smoke, lying on their bedroom floor.

 

Wearing a badge and a uniform as an Exterior Firefighter, marching down Main St in the Fourth of July Parade takes a lot of balls. It's a totally false claim trying to be a firefighter marching in the same group. Maybe carrying a banner saying; "Exterior Qualified Only" would give credit to where credit is due. I have no problem with that, if that's the way it's done.

 

 I'm sure we have all gone to fires where the smoke and heat is banked down at the doorway and some guys suddenly "WISH" they were "Exterior Only" firefighters. In those few cases where it has happened, they became "INTERIOR Certified" whether they wanted to or not. That's when they get a real taste of what this "Brotherhood Thing" is really all about.

[huzzie59 75]

"The New York State Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Services, Office of Fire Prevention and Control, in cooperation with New York State Public Employee Safety and Health, New York State Fire Chiefs Association, Firemen's Association of the State of New York, County Fire Coordinators' Association and the Fire Districts Association of the State of New York"

has defined Exterior Firefighter and Interior Structural FIrefighter:

 

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/firefighting-best-practices.cfm

[nfd2004 750]

3 hours ago, huzzie59 said:

"The New York State Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Services, Office of Fire Prevention and Control, in cooperation with New York State Public Employee Safety and Health, New York State Fire Chiefs Association, Firemen's Association of the State of New York, County Fire Coordinators' Association and the Fire Districts Association of the State of New York"

has defined Exterior Firefighter and Interior Structural FIrefighter:

 

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/firefighting-best-practices.cfm

 

 I must admit, it's pretty tough to argue that case clearly spelled out in black and white. So that is now well understood.

 

 So what do we tell the neighbors who see a fire truck show up as they scream; "There's somebody in that building". Do you tell them help is on the way ? The same one's that just applauded you as you marched by in the big parade. The same one's that were glad to buy you that nice big shiny fire truck you pull up in. The same one's who listened to your firefighter stories and could not believe how great you really are.

 

 Reminds me of a TRUE story I once heard. While attending a company picnic, one guy starts to talk about the big fire that he fought a few weeks earlier. Of course he apparently didn't know that another firefighter was sitting right there listening to the whole story as he was pounding down a couple of burgers. That other firefighter had not said one word about it, he just listened. The suddenly out of no where, one woman pops up with, "Oh Helen, isn't your husband a firefighter too" ?

 

 Well folks the secret was now out. As that hero firefighter asked "Well where are you a firefighter" ? I guess that other FF figured it was time to talk. he said I work at the firehouse right up the street from where that fire was. I was there and as I recall, you actually never went to that fire. "Didn't you just relocate with your company into the empty firehouse up the street" ? "In fact now that I think about it, when we got back, I actually remember seeing you there". "You really were never at that fire".

 

  You can just guess what it was like as his balloon just got a pin stuck into it.

 

  Motto of the Story. Just be careful what you say to people when it comes to you fighting fires. Make sure you tell them that you are "Exterior Qualified Only". You don't want anybody to get the wrong impression. Believe me, that was NOT the first time either.

Edited July 2, 2016 by nfd2004

[v85 212]

Would any department really respond a first due piece with no interior members?  Has that happened or is this a hypothetical

[Bnechis 3,961]

On July 1, 2016 at 10:34 AM, gamewell45 said:

Barry, I googled your term "Firefighter Helpers" and there is nothing listed under that.  Therefore I'm going to conclude that it is nothing more then a divisive term you threw into the mix.  The term "exterior" is more appropriate in this case and I'm sure you are well aware of what Exterior Firefighters roles are in the fire service.

Actually if I wanted to used a decisive term I would have used "Yard Breather" and I googled that and found a whole bunch of sites and definitions. Now these are members who are considered interior but never get inside because they use all their air walking back and forth outside.

 

if you watch all the videos on YouTube you can see that a vast majority of exterior personnel stand around waiting for the fire to go out.

[FireMedic049 597]

47 minutes ago, v85 said:

Would any department really respond a first due piece with no interior members?  Has that happened or is this a hypothetical

Not a hypothetical.  I can't put hard numbers to it, but it happens in my area at times. 

[Bnechis 3,961]

On July 1, 2016 at 11:00 AM, gamewell45 said:

Ok that's fine; my point was there is no need to use a divisive term as the OP did in his post.  If in fact people feel this is a misleading term, then perhaps they should push to make it state law where any FD has to list by category and job function what each firefighter does and make it available to the public.  That will solve the advertising problem.

The misleading term is firefighter, because the public expects a firefighter. When your kid or parent is trapped inside and a bunch of people show up with turnout gear, they expect them to actually do something.

 

Recently, the Mayor of Port Chester claimed that the PCFD had 300 members, 150 interior. But we know that they only paid for 75 bailouts (required by NYS Law) but 16 were for the career FF's of both PCFD and RBFD. So they only have 59 at best. To many depts lie, even to themselves about the number of members.

[gamewell45 258]

4 hours ago, Bnechis said:

Actually if I wanted to used a decisive term I would have used "Yard Breather" and I googled that and found a whole bunch of sites and definitions. Now these are members who are considered interior but never get inside because they use all their air walking back and forth outside.

 

if you watch all the videos on YouTube you can see that a vast majority of exterior personnel stand around waiting for the fire to go out.

Perhaps you could share those sites with us ?

[gamewell45 258]

15 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

Wearing a badge and a uniform as an Exterior Firefighter, marching down Main St in the Fourth of July Parade takes a lot of balls. It's a totally false claim trying to be a firefighter marching in the same group. Maybe carrying a banner saying; "Exterior Qualified Only" would give credit to where credit is due. I have no problem with that, if that's the way it's done.

If you feel that strongly, it might behoove you to write to your state legislator requesting that they change the laws to require the badges and banners, to reflect the actual correct title as you deem fit.

[gamewell45 258]

4 hours ago, Bnechis said:

The misleading term is firefighter, because the public expects a firefighter. When your kid or parent is trapped inside and a bunch of people show up with turnout gear, they expect them to actually do something.

 

Recently, the Mayor of Port Chester claimed that the PCFD had 300 members, 150 interior. But we know that they only paid for 75 bailouts (required by NYS Law) but 16 were for the career FF's of both PCFD and RBFD. So they only have 59 at best. To many depts lie, even to themselves about the number of members.

Then take the Village of Port Chester to task for misleading the public.  In the meantime I stand by my opinion that your term was divisive and was totally unnecessary.  It would be the same if I referred to interior firefighters as fire extinguishers since that is a major part of what they do; I doubt many firefighters would embrace that term; in fact I suspect many would take offense at it. 

 

If you find term firefighter objectionable when it's applied to Exterior personnel, fine but there is no need to be divisive; instead work for reform to legally change the titles if it offends you so much.  Being divisive accomplishes absolutely nothing positive.

[MESS11FOREVER 246]

On 6/1/2016 at 11:04 PM, COH Bulldog said:

What happened with the other apparatus they had? Did they sell those off?

The Mack scope from Long Island went to Schuylkill Hose in Schuylkill Haven, Pa (Schuylkill County) and its getting relettered for them as wel speak 

[16fire5 693]

On 7/3/2016 at 0:22 AM, gamewell45 said:

Then take the Village of Port Chester to task for misleading the public.  In the meantime I stand by my opinion that your term was divisive and was totally unnecessary.  It would be the same if I referred to interior firefighters as fire extinguishers since that is a major part of what they do; I doubt many firefighters would embrace that term; in fact I suspect many would take offense at it. 

 

If you find term firefighter objectionable when it's applied to Exterior personnel, fine but there is no need to be divisive; instead work for reform to legally change the titles if it offends you so much.  Being divisive accomplishes absolutely nothing positive.

 

Why do we need to change it legally.  Any lay person who hears the title firefighter expects the person to fight fires.  The NFPA does not define exterior firefighters.  With the exception of a few states (NY in that few) these members/personnel are defined as what they are drivers, support ect.  

 

[Bnechis 3,961]

On July 3, 2016 at 0:01 AM, gamewell45 said:

Perhaps you could share those sites with us ?

You said you googled "exterior firefighter" and found nothing.

 

i said I googled "yard breather" and found a number of sites.

 

maybe instead of challenging me, you need to learn how to use google?

[Bnechis 3,961]

On July 3, 2016 at 0:22 AM, gamewell45 said:

Then take the Village of Port Chester to task for misleading the public.  In the meantime I stand by my opinion that your term was divisive and was totally unnecessary.  It would be the same if I referred to interior firefighters as fire extinguishers since that is a major part of what they do; I doubt many firefighters would embrace that term; in fact I suspect many would take offense at it. 

 

If you find term firefighter objectionable when it's applied to Exterior personnel, fine but there is no need to be divisive; instead work for reform to legally change the titles if it offends you so much.  Being divisive accomplishes absolutely nothing positive.

You seam to be the only one with a real problem.

 

sure lets take Port Chester out, I can change the name to many many other communities that believe the local FD is properly staffed when it is operating at such low numbers it can not even meet two in two out without mutual aid. These depts include volunteer, combo and career. My fight has always been about under staffing and calling people something they are not folks the public and the department.

 

last year acity councilwoman in another Westchester community made the comment that she was so proud of the 120 volunteers in their department. The Fire Chief almost fell out of his chair. He had to explain to her that most of the members were in their 70's and 80's and no longer responded to calls, but they were still "members". That brought the total number down to about 50, with only 18 or 19 being interior he said. And of those only a few were really active. In fact they average less than 2 interior firefighters responding to calls. 

 

Not too worry, their are plenty of members!

[dwcfireman 656]

On 7/2/2016 at 8:12 AM, nfd2004 said:

Wearing a badge and a uniform as an Exterior Firefighter, marching down Main St in the Fourth of July Parade takes a lot of balls. It's a totally false claim trying to be a firefighter marching in the same group. Maybe carrying a banner saying; "Exterior Qualified Only" would give credit to where credit is due. I have no problem with that, if that's the way it's done.

 

As for marching down Main Street for all of these parades, placing some sort of badge or banner indicating the difference between interior and exterior firefighters would more than likely damage the morale of a department, especially with departments with larger numbers of exterior firefighters who are older or not medically fit to enter a building.  The Class A/Dress uniform is a thing of pride, showing your brotherhood and camaraderie through the good times and bad.  In a time where we, as the fire service (both career and volunteer), are hurting for people to fill the rigs and fills the assignments, do we really want to hurt company morale by indicating who is among the "elite" (interior) and who is among the "plebs" (exterior?)  Public events, like parades and festivals, are not the place to be telling the public who can go inside and who cannot.  I do agree that the public SHOULD know how many firefighters in your department are interior and how many are exterior, but let's leave it out of the public eye when everyone is out trying to have a good time (or at an unfortunate time like a memorial service or funeral.)

 

On the other side of it, though, a lot of departments throughout the state DO identify who is interior and who is not through tell-tale signs on the turnout gear, most notably on the helmet.  YELLOW trapezoids are interior, and RED is exterior.  This is more for accountability and safety purposes, as you can see whether an exterior is too close to the IDLH or in an area that requires SCBA (like near a window that smoke is pumping out of,) and you can pull them back.  As a fire officer, I do like to see these types of identification so I can keep a better awareness of who is around me and where people should and shouldn't be.  I would like to put this akin to the orange probationary shield that new firefighters have to wear, which indicates to officers and senior firefighters that this a person who is still new to the job and still gaining the basic knowledge and experience.  Visual indicators in the field are extremely helpful for everyone (as in, we all know the guy with the white helmet is making the decisions.)

 

But let's put all of this BS aside.  There is a bigger problem out there than identifying who is qualified for what.  It's the fact that there just isn't enough of us.  Even as unions go toe to toe with municipalities to put more firefighters on the rigs, and volunteers hand out applications to recruit and retain firefighters, we all have the same problem.  And, this is couple by a paramount of other issues from the increased mandatory training, slashing of budgets, the physical demand, the increasing training and safety requirements, a crappy economy, a butt load of politics, and [at least for the volunteers] a lack of time.  Never mind that some people aren't allowed to be interior for medical reasons, the fact that there is so much into becoming a certified interior firefighter is quite a burden for a lot of people.  Times have changed, the requirements have changed, and society has changed.  We, the firefighters, the protectors or our communities, are always fighting an uphill battle to fill the seats.

[gamewell45 258]

On 7/4/2016 at 10:59 AM, 16fire5 said:

 

Why do we need to change it legally.  Any lay person who hears the title firefighter expects the person to fight fires.  The NFPA does not define exterior firefighters.  With the exception of a few states (NY in that few) these members/personnel are defined as what they are drivers, support ect.  

 

Because that is what it is going to take if you want the term removed.  While the NFPA may not define exterior firefighters, certain departments do and that's something that people in the fire service will just have to live with.

[gamewell45 258]

On 7/4/2016 at 2:31 PM, Bnechis said:

You said you googled "exterior firefighter" and found nothing.

 

i said I googled "yard breather" and found a number of sites.

 

maybe instead of challenging me, you need to learn how to use google?

Sure, after you work on your reading comprehension.  I never said "exterior firefighter" I said "firefighter helpers".

[gamewell45 258]

On 7/4/2016 at 2:46 PM, Bnechis said:

You seam to be the only one with a real problem.

 

sure lets take Port Chester out, I can change the name to many many other communities that believe the local FD is properly staffed when it is operating at such low numbers it can not even meet two in two out without mutual aid. These depts include volunteer, combo and career. My fight has always been about under staffing and calling people something they are not folks the public and the department.

 

last year acity councilwoman in another Westchester community made the comment that she was so proud of the 120 volunteers in their department. The Fire Chief almost fell out of his chair. He had to explain to her that most of the members were in their 70's and 80's and no longer responded to calls, but they were still "members". That brought the total number down to about 50, with only 18 or 19 being interior he said. And of those only a few were really active. In fact they average less than 2 interior firefighters responding to calls. 

 

Not too worry, their are plenty of members!

Barry, the only problem I had was with your divisiveness, which you have a history of in this forum whether or not you recognize it.  It's counterproductive and accomplishes absolutely nothing except dividing people on this forum, that's why I called you out on it.  There's no need to address it in the manner in which you did was my point.

 

As for the other issues you bring up, that is something that can be addressed by either contacting the responsible parties or the state and work to create the change you desire.