It is still out there Professional vs Volunteer...and in Westchester

[velcroMedic1987 330]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:42 PM, FFPCogs said:

Willy my solution is the same as it always has been. Same standards across the board and with that, no more of the career can only be led by career nonsense. The same length of service requirement for all members seeking promotion followed by EARNING that promotion by successfully passing the SAME promotional exams regardless of pay status.  A FF is a FF paid or not, a Lieut a Lieut paid or not, a Capt a Capt paid or not, a Battalion Chief a Battalion Chief paid or not and so on.

 

This is the biggest problem with the fire service in NYS.  There are disparate standards for a career firefighter and volunteer firefighter so you can't say a FF is a FF. 

Officers also receive widely different training - if any at all - so you can't say they're the same either. 

Until they hold all to the standard, regardless of pay status, this will continue to be a hot issue in NY.

[nfd2004 750]

As was pointed out, despite some written test scores or some certification program, the standard can really never be equal. 

 

When it comes to being paid for a particular job, the standards applied to do that job are much far higher than those who are not paid. Yet in both cases, there may be some form of self satisfaction on doing a good job as a fire department officer. 

 

From the topic of training, reports, firefighting, personnel problems, most career fire officers must be much more accountable for their actions. 

 

A career dept chief does not look at it from a self satisfaction thing, but as "you're paid to do a job and why haven't you done it". 

 

As when the same concerns face a volunteer chief, the duties of the officers is more in the form of a request with no legal right to demand it must be done as part of their job. 

 

Career firefighters face a probation time in which they are evaluated. As a final solution to a "problem child", they could face termination and the loss of their new career.And by far, that also includes the rigorous recruit school.

[FireMedic049 597]

3 hours ago, velcroMedic1987 said:

 

This is the biggest problem with the fire service in NYS.  There are disparate standards for a career firefighter and volunteer firefighter so you can't say a FF is a FF. 

Officers also receive widely different training - if any at all - so you can't say they're the same either. 

Until they hold all to the standard, regardless of pay status, this will continue to be a hot issue in NY.

And in many other states too.

[jd783 64]

This is why the volunteer system does not work in todays times. Structure fire at 11am on a monday morning. I am not saying paid depts put out every fire in a timely manner but I I can promise you we are on scene operating at the 15 min mark. this was reposted from Facebook all names were removed to protect the innocent 

 

 

 

 

**Structure Fire** (OOC) Carmel NY, 86 Duke Rd & Dale Rd. Fire in the rear of the residence.

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 Lake Carmel 1 engine requested

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 Fire investigation team requested

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 Carmel, Lake Carmel & Patterson all requesting additional manpower. Putnam Lake M/A

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 Carmel additional tones, driver needed

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FIT requesting additional tones for members

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 Putnam 911 advising all stations there are little to no apparatus on the road ATT, incident is 15+ mins in.

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12-2-1 now responding

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 PCEMS1 now responding

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 18-2-1 on standby at Carmel firehouse

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 Apparatus are now o/s, status of the fire unknown ATT

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[gamewell45 258]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:52 PM, jd783 said:

This is why the volunteer system does not work in todays times. Structure fire at 11am on a monday morning. I am not saying paid depts put out every fire in a timely manner but I I can promise you we are on scene operating at the 15 min mark. this was reposted from Facebook all names were removed to protect the innocent 

 

 

 

 

**Structure Fire** (OOC) Carmel NY, 86 Duke Rd & Dale Rd. Fire in the rear of the residence.

LikeShow more reactions

Comment

1919

Comments

 Lake Carmel 1 engine requested

Like · Reply · 1 · 32 mins

 Fire investigation team requested

Like · Reply · 1 · 30 mins

 Carmel, Lake Carmel & Patterson all requesting additional manpower. Putnam Lake M/A

Like · Reply · 22 mins · Edited

 Carmel additional tones, driver needed

Like · Reply · 23 mins · Edited

FIT requesting additional tones for members

Like · Reply · 20 mins

 Putnam 911 advising all stations there are little to no apparatus on the road ATT, incident is 15+ mins in.

Like · Reply · 17 mins · Edited

12-2-1 now responding

Like · Reply · 17 mins

 PCEMS1 now responding

Like · Reply · 17 mins

 18-2-1 on standby at Carmel firehouse

Like · Reply · 10 mins

 Apparatus are now o/s, status of the fire unknown ATT

Like · Reply · 9 mins · Edited

And it's unlikely to change anytime soon; you want a career department that's fine, but it comes with a cost attached to it and the taxpayers don't want to pay the costs; they'd rather roll the dice. 

 

The biggest problem with volunteer departments is getting the apparatus out in a timely fashion; most departments resist having bunk-in's at the fire stations which would cut response time dramatically instead relying on the volunteers to get out of bed and respond to the firehouse for apparatus. Until the mindset changes, nothing will change.

[FFPCogs 863]

23 hours ago, gamewell45 said:

And it's unlikely to change anytime soon; you want a career department that's fine, but it comes with a cost attached to it and the taxpayers don't want to pay the costs; they'd rather roll the dice. 

 

The biggest problem with volunteer departments is getting the apparatus out in a timely fashion; most departments resist having bunk-in's at the fire stations which would cut response time dramatically instead relying on the volunteers to get out of bed and respond to the firehouse for apparatus. Until the mindset changes, nothing will change.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is the culture within many VFDs that has to change and adapt to the modern realities. What worked years ago doesn't in most cases anymore. An all career dept is not the one size fits all solution either since many towns and cities simply can't afford the expense. That said there are a number of departments that have accepted the facts and made changes. Now to be fair some have done so and made dramatic improvements while other have only begun to move forward, but the point is moving forward they are. Sadly for every one that is moving forward there are 10 that are stagnant or worse still, moving backwards. 

 

Ultimately the most practical solution is a combination system where staffing is distributed effectively to provide the most coverage in a timely manner with a reasonable cost...on paper that is. We all know it isn't that simple. To the outsider looking in at the fire service, it must seem that we, as a group, are either completely insane or downright stupid or both. That there are so many things which get in the way of providing a decent level of service to those we are all here to protect is a travesty of monumental proportions..and quite frankly it defies reason.

 

Until ALL firefighters decide to live up to OUR core values and put those we serve first there is little hope for progress. The simple truth is that we have all let something other than those we serve become our primary concern. It doesn't matter if it's a fiefdom, a contract, a grudge or ambition, everything that stands in the way of us serving our communities in THEIR best interest is the problem. And it is OUR problem

 

You know it isn't always the other guy, in fact it almost never is. We might all do well to remember that "I'm a part of the problem" and work on fixing ourselves before we go lambasting "the other guy". That admission would do more to change the fire service for the better that any debate, battle or scheme in our collective history. We are all a product of the culture we are a part of, but we are also the only ones who, right now today, can begin to change that culture. 

 

As was told to me and as I pass along to every new FF that passes through the door..."NEVER forget that you are not here for you, you are here for those we SERVE"!! Somewhere along the line it seems many have forgotten that fact.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by FFPCogs

[nfd2004 750]

2 hours ago, FFPCogs said:

I agree wholeheartedly. It is the culture within many VFDs that has to change and adapt to the modern realities. What worked years ago doesn't in most cases anymore. An all career dept is not the one size fits all solution either since many towns and cities simply can't afford the expense. That said there are a number of departments that have accepted the facts and made changes. Now to be fair some have done so and made dramatic improvements while other have only begun to move forward, but the point is moving forward they are. Sadly for every one that is moving forward there are 10 that are stagnant or worse still, moving backwards. 

 

Ultimately the most practical solution is a combination system where staffing is distributed effectively to provide the most coverage in a timely manner with a reasonable cost...on paper that is. We all know it isn't that simple. To the outsider looking in at the fire service, it must seem that we, as a group, are either completely insane or downright stupid or both. That there are so many things which get in the way of providing a decent level of service to those we are all here to protect is a travesty of monumental proportions..and quite frankly it defies reason.

 

Until ALL firefighters decide to live up to OUR core values and put those we serve first there is little hope for progress. The simple truth is that we have all let something other than those we serve become our primary concern. It doesn't matter if it's a fiefdom, a contract, a grudge or ambition, everything that stands in the way of us serving our communities in THEIR best interest is the problem. And it is OUR problem

 

You know it isn't always the other guy, in fact it almost never is. We might all do well to remember that "I'm a part of the problem" and work on fixing ourselves before we go lambasting "the other guy". That admission would do more to change the fire service for the better that any debate, battle or scheme in our collective history. We are all a product of the culture we are a part of, but we are also the only ones who, right now today, can begin to change that culture. 

 

As was told to me and as I pass along to every new FF that passes through the door..."NEVER forget that you are not here for you, you are here for those we SERVE"!! Somewhere along the line it seems many have forgotten that fact.

 

 

 

 

 Great post Pete. I certainly agree with every point you say.

 

 I bet you'd never see that happen !!!! But it just did....

Edited June 30, 2016 by nfd2004

[FFPCogs 863]

16 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

 Great post Pete. I certainly agree with every point you say.

 

 I bet you'd never see that happen !!!! But it just did....

Will wonders never cease... 

[nfd2004 750]

52 minutes ago, FFPCogs said:

Will wonders never cease... 

 

 Now Pete, aka "FFPCogs", if only you and I can put our heads together up here where I'm at and "TRY" to straighten out this DISEASTER where I am.

 

   I have been working with a local newspaper reporter over the last few months to try and explain how a wall can be torn down dividing East and West Berlin back in 1989 (?) creating a Free Country. But somehow, they still can't seem to be able to tear down a wall that divides one city in half. And how one of those halves, are actually divided more in 5 totally separate pieces.

 

  All within the same city that has One Police Dept., One Public Works Dept, and one single Board of Education Dept. Somebody has suggested those city departments I mention also be divided into the same separate pieces as the fire department. All broken up to cover a place of about 40,000 people. So what are our thoughts on that ? Should this city create five more police depts. etc., rather than have just the one ?

 

  It doesn't matter who's lives are involved either, civilians, career firefighters or volunteer firefighters. Or whether it's a major ammonia Haz Mat incident in a large food storage warehouse, with the commander requesting a Haz Mat team from 15 miles away. Rather than the Haz Mat team about 4 miles away. Not even knowing if anybody is lying down in that building sucking in those vapors.

 

  Or how about an occupied building fire that gets help from an Unstaffed firehouse 8 miles away, while a Staffed firehouse less than 2 miles away never responds.

 

  These are just two examples of the kind of things that a local newspaper article is supposed to talk about in an upcoming story very soon. Of course there are always two sides to every story and I've only told mine. Hopefully we'll get some good reasons on why the fire commanders of these, and a few other incidents called for the type of fire response I tried to explain here.

 

 Once that newspaper article comes out, if it explains the story the way I tried to, personally, I think that city will be "forced to make some changes". If not and somebody happens to drop the ball, then it will be: "Oh Lord, why didn't we make some changes for the right reasons rather than let a few guys hold onto their self centered egos.

 

  As soon as that newspaper article comes out, I'll do my best to post it here. I won't consider myself the "winner" or the "looser" of however things turnout. Actually the real winners or loosers will be the people affected by this. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by nfd2004

[FFPCogs 863]

5 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

 Now Pete, aka "FFPCogs", if only you and I can put our heads together up here where I'm at and "TRY" to straighten out this DISEASTER where I am.

 

   I have been working with a local newspaper reporter over the last few months to try and explain how a wall can be torn down dividing East and West Berlin back in 1989 (?) creating a Free Country. But somehow, they still can't seem to be able to tear down a wall that divides one city in half. And how one of those halves, are actually divided more in 5 totally separate pieces.

 

  All within the same city that has One Police Dept., One Public Works Dept, and one single Board of Education Dept. Somebody has suggested those city departments I mention also be divided into the same separate pieces as the fire department. All broken up to cover a place of about 40,000 people. So what are our thoughts on that ? Should this city create five more police depts. etc., rather than have just the one ?

 

  It doesn't matter who's lives are involved either, civilians, career firefighters or volunteer firefighters. Or whether it's a major ammonia Haz Mat incident in a large food storage warehouse, with the commander requesting a Haz Mat team from 15 miles away. Rather than the Haz Mat team about 4 miles away. Not even knowing if anybody is lying down in that building sucking in those vapors.

 

  Or how about an occupied building fire that gets help from an Unstaffed firehouse 8 miles away, while a Staffed firehouse less than 2 miles away never responds.

 

  These are just two examples of the kind of things that a local newspaper article is supposed to talk about in an upcoming story very soon. Of course there are always two sides to every story and I've only told mine. Hopefully we'll get some good reasons on why the fire commanders of these, and a few other incidents called for the type of fire response I tried to explain here.

 

 Once that newspaper article comes out, if it explains the story the way I tried to, personally, I think that city will be "forced to make some changes". If not and somebody happens to drop the ball, then it will be: "Oh Lord, why didn't we make some changes for the right reasons rather than let a few guys hold onto their self centered egos.

 

  As soon as that newspaper article comes out, I'll do my best to post it here. I won't consider myself the "winner" or the "looser" of however things turnout. Actually the real winners or loosers will be the people affected by this. 

Sometimes Willy we are left with no other recourse other than to open that can of worms. Such a move is sure to make us unpopular in some (or many) circles, but every so often speaking out can make a difference. I hope that your input can be a catalyst for your City and one that will bring everyone to the table ready to move forward as allies and not enemies. A big step I know, and one not likely to be taken without some hostility, but maybe you can all succeed where so many of us have not. 

 

Although you and I often disagree on the how, we have far more often than not agreed on the what..and that what is making our fire service worthy of those we are here to serve. Good luck to you and to your tangled web of a fire service....you're probably going to need it..