Rye weakens Chief qualifications

[Bnechis 3,961]

http://www.local2029.com/news-and-events/2016/3/29/board-of-fire-wardens-weakens-qualifications-to-be-chief

 

What do you need to be chief?

[fdalumnus 165]

a pulse

[kinkchaser 352]

No mention of Blue Card certified

[nfd2004 750]

Do the citizens of this place who depend on their fire department know this ?

 

Do they know that this is the guy that will be responsible for spending their tax dollars when it comes to fire protection ?

 

Do they know that this is the guy that is going to be responsible for life and death decisions involving their family members and friends ?

 

My last question is, "Is this a hoax or some kind of April Fool joke" ?

[Bnechis 3,961]

The citizens there and in most communities have no clue about the local FD. 

 

They are much more concerned with the goings on at the yacht club and the golf club.

 

Sadly it is neither a hoax or an April Fools Joke.

 

Thier former city manager said it best when he described the department as: "Staffed for Failure"

[nfd2004 750]

Here is an interesting video that I thought might explain the kind of person Rye might be looking for as the next fire chief. Although this chief does seem to be quite educated.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFKMjiTme0

[beavis 11]

NFD2004, this would be an extremely funny video if it weren't so true and I keep wondering how much worse this situation could get.  I am afraid of the answer. As a resident of the city I am ashamed of what is happening.

[beavis 11]

Its more about qualifications or there lack of. Rye's residents just need to ask questions, but like in any community they are blind as to whats really going on.

Edited April 13, 2016 by beavis

[AFS1970 504]

This is all part of a vicious circle. Higher certifications are created. Department changes rules to require those. A few candidates become chiefs. Department does nothing to help additional members get certified. Chiefs step down/retire. Lack of qualified members leads to lowering requirements.

 

I don't know how it is in NY but I know in CT you can contract the state academy to come in and run a class at your department. Granted you can't make the class meet everyone's schedule, but you can get members certified if the department and the members actually have the will to do it.

 

The key is to make any requirements reasonable.

[S1720G 62]

It's all about the certs. Never the experience.

[FFPCogs 863]

11 hours ago, AFS1970 said:

This is all part of a vicious circle. Higher certifications are created. Department changes rules to require those. A few candidates become chiefs. Department does nothing to help additional members get certified. Chiefs step down/retire. Lack of qualified members leads to lowering requirements.

 

I don't know how it is in NY but I know in CT you can contract the state academy to come in and run a class at your department. Granted you can't make the class meet everyone's schedule, but you can get members certified if the department and the members actually have the will to do it.

 

The key is to make any requirements reasonable.

Beyond that Alan there is also the cadre of officers/leadership that meet a requirement or creates their own standard and then prevents anyone else from being able to attain it. Some call that job security, I call self serving, but either way it ultimately causes big problems in succession not to mention morale.

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by FFPCogs

[Chkpoint 131]

The 2nd assistant Rye chief is a 5 year member 22 years old.  And has never been in a fire.  1st asst has recently returned to the  dept after being gone for many many years.   

[sueg 77]

Does anyone know if the By-Laws changes were passed by the City Council at the March 30th meeting?

[nfd2004 750]

21 hours ago, Slampiglover69 said:

The FF1 class now encompasses hazmat and ICS system, so they'll be qualified. Just because they have multiple pieces of paper that says " Hey, This person showed up". Also, It's safe to assume to they already have someone vetted for the position and they're doing this just to get the person in. When has it ever happened in this service someone was chosen based on their qualifications, and not on who their drinking buddy is?

 

  I think that is probably very true and it happens in a lot more places than just Rye, NY. Aside from being some kind of joke, it is really pretty scary to think that this actually goes on.

 

 Add the fact that "Chkpoint" says; the 2nd Asst Chief is 22 years old and never been in a fire, I think the citizens of Rye are in some big trouble. Do the people know this and are they willing to accept that ? Making on the spot serious decisions involving people and firefighters lives takes experience and good judgment. I know that I didn't have close to those qualities at 22 years old. However, I think I was smart enough not to even consider it.

 

 The people as well as the firefighters in that department should give this some serious thought. This 22 year old Asst Chief might be a great guy, but it just doesn't look too good to me.

Edited April 14, 2016 by nfd2004

[AFS1970 504]

I have said it before, certifications do not make you a good officer, but they are what we have for now.

 

I think qualifications should be a combination of years of service, run/response stats & training/certifications. The idea being you should score high in all three categories but you can make up for shortcomings in one by having higher stats in the others. Bearing in mind that no system is perfect.

 

However once a system is in place it becomes the responsibility of the department and the individual member together to ensure that there are qualified members and that the standard still meets the needs of the departments.

 

I remember looking at a set of by laws for a department that required FF1 to get off probation, yet never required EMR or EMT, despite about 55% of the runs being EMS related. Now I am not saying we should sacrifice FF1 but you should probably need both if that is the way your department is responding.

 

I know of one department that required HazMat tech to be chief, they later revisited that and got rid of it because they really were not running the number of HazMat calls they once anticipated.

[Quickness 7]

8 hours ago, Chkpoint said:

The 2nd assistant Rye chief is a 5 year member 22 years old.  And has never been in a fire.  

 

Definitely not the first Westchester Chief at that age with that level of experience.

[kinkchaser 352]

Are the Rye Police Chief and DPW head also permitted to lack professional qualifications to hold their jobs ?

[somebuffyguy 190]

So what's the big solution? I've seen a lot of complaints but not many answers. I've seen more certifications are needed (but also that they don't qualify one to be an officer), they need more experience(in a department that doesn't see much fire I don't know where they'll get it) and that the public is to blame for not knowing enough(but if we can't figure it out I don't know how they will) . 

 

Unfortunately it seems this FD simply has to make due with what they have. If they don't have enough qualified candidates do the simply not have a chief? I can understand maybe getting rid of an assistant chief position, but someone ultimately needs to be in charge. This only leads me to two possible answers:

 

1. Hire a paid chief. It's getting more and more difficult for people to maintain the qualifications and run a department in their spare time.  

 

2. MERGE. Can anyone please explain to me how we've come to the conclusion that we'll be able to find someone to be qualified to run an FD in every 2 square miles of this county? How do we expect any of these small departments to provide the manpower (either volunteer or career) and find a chief? If Rye wanted to have the staffing to meet NFPA recommendations of 17 at a structure fire, with 4 shifts (and no admin or training staff), that's a 68 man roster. With only 15k living in the city, that would be like Yonkers having 900+ firemen! While the union can throw out all the hashtags they want, wouldn't they be better off suggesting something that could work and not kill the tax base ? Between Rye, rye Brook, port Chester, mamaroneck and larchmont you have a bunch of understaffed departments right on top of each other. With a "Shoreline regional FD" you could afford to properly staff it with career members, have an ample number of volunteers and only need one chief to manage it. Or they could continue to rely on 3 mutual aid departments for every room and contents fire while looking for a new chief every year on every exit of I-95.  

 

That's what I'd do if my union was in that situation.  Just saying. 

 

[frost025 94]

What's the big difference in Rye that isn't any different in any other combo dept.....

[Chkpoint 131]

Buff guy i stated pretty much the same thing on here about a month or two ago.   You could and should merge most of these sound shore departments.  All the points you brought up are valid and as i stated in the previous post you don't need Mamaroneck or PC with 4 or 5 firehouses.  could save a lot of tax dollars.  I mean between Larchmont to PC, all those towns you have about 25 engines alone. Cost of each of those engines and to run and maintain them and then the equipment....well you get the idea.   And as far as experience in these small towns.  Yes granted you don't see a lot of fire but in 10years (amount of time I at least think a volunteer chief should have) I am sure you will see enough fire.  I mean hell every town calls mutual aide lately like you stated and well you gain some experience going in.   I think a career chief probably the way to go and still keep whatever you have as a volunteer crew.   

[kinkchaser 352]

Besides qualifications, experience would be useful, reminds me of the old saying "Twenty five years a cowboy and never stepped in horsesh%%"

[Dinosaur 844]

On 3/29/2016 at 6:28 PM, Bnechis said:

http://www.local2029.com/news-and-events/2016/3/29/board-of-fire-wardens-weakens-qualifications-to-be-chief

 

What do you need to be chief?

 

According to your link above, this is the new and improved by-law requirement for chief:

FF1 and ICS-400.  That's a crackerjack resume.

[Dinosaur 844]

22 hours ago, kinkchaser said:

Are the Rye Police Chief and DPW head also permitted to lack professional qualifications to hold their jobs ?

 

Civil service has very specific requirements for advancement or promotion.  You can't even sit for a police written exam for chief without having met the minimum requirements which are a lot more than PD1 and ICS-400.

[kinkchaser 352]

Several years we traveled to the National Fire Academy and asked if they could develop a Chief Officers course,  they needed money to do this With help of Nita Lowey we got the money and the course was developed.

 Being from New York it was our desire to have the course, with necessary local additions made mandatory for Career newly promoted Chief Officers. We felt it made sense as we have mandatory recruit, in-service and First Line Officers training , then it suddenly stops at Chief Officers.

  Our next visit was to FDNY and had the backing of the then administration to present this course at Fort Totten, as long as we could secure a continuous funding source and it would be presented similar to the FDNY Chiefs course.

   The dream was any newly promoted career Chief anywhere in New York State would go for a months instruction to Fort Totten, Queens and take advantage of all the experiences afforded. Sadly, it never got funded and there was resistance to it, some even wanted to make it a computer course.. It was broad enough that it could be taught in other states at academies or regionally.

 For the Volunteer Chiefs it could have been taught at nights or week-end in like segments over a period of time, so a guy enters as a "Baby Chief:" would have the entire Course completed by the time he reaches the top position.

   Few folks get any training to prepare them for this rank and their experiences are not adequate for a position so different from previous assignments . We speak so much about safety, how about the guy running "the job" knowing what he is doing.

    If you like this shelved idea, contact the Office of Fire Prevention and Control in Albany and/or the New York State Fire Chiefs Association, see if this can be resurrected, again this is not limited to New York State, we just felt our State would be a logical starting point as we have State mandated training for all other ranks except this one.

 

[nfd2004 750]

10 hours ago, kinkchaser said:

Several years we traveled to the National Fire Academy and asked if they could develop a Chief Officers course,  they needed money to do this With help of Nita Lowey we got the money and the course was developed.

 Being from New York it was our desire to have the course, with necessary local additions made mandatory for Career newly promoted Chief Officers. We felt it made sense as we have mandatory recruit, in-service and First Line Officers training , then it suddenly stops at Chief Officers.

  Our next visit was to FDNY and had the backing of the then administration to present this course at Fort Totten, as long as we could secure a continuous funding source and it would be presented similar to the FDNY Chiefs course.

   The dream was any newly promoted career Chief anywhere in New York State would go for a months instruction to Fort Totten, Queens and take advantage of all the experiences afforded. Sadly, it never got funded and there was resistance to it, some even wanted to make it a computer course.. It was broad enough that it could be taught in other states at academies or regionally.

 For the Volunteer Chiefs it could have been taught at nights or week-end in like segments over a period of time, so a guy enters as a "Baby Chief:" would have the entire Course completed by the time he reaches the top position.

   Few folks get any training to prepare them for this rank and their experiences are not adequate for a position so different from previous assignments . We speak so much about safety, how about the guy running "the job" knowing what he is doing.

    If you like this shelved idea, contact the Office of Fire Prevention and Control in Albany and/or the New York State Fire Chiefs Association, see if this can be resurrected, again this is not limited to New York State, we just felt our State would be a logical starting point as we have State mandated training for all other ranks except this one.

 

 

 Thank you "kinkchaser". This confirms that when it comes to public safety over politics, the POLITICS are the winners. They have absolutely no concern for public safety, only their own political future.

 

 Then when a 22 year old, or the like, makes a very foolish fire ground decision, causing injury or worse, people will wonder why. And by the time the city/town faces a serious lawsuit over such a case, the chief officer and those political officials are long gone. Meanwhile the damage is done and the rest of the taxpayers foot the bill.

 

  As long as Rye, and places like Rye, are willing to accept that fact, let them drop the requirements to a third grade education and just 3-4 weeks as a firefighter. That just might open the door for others as well.

[AFS1970 504]

On 4/17/2016 at 10:14 AM, nfd2004 said:

 Then when a 22 year old, or the like, makes a very foolish fire ground decision, causing injury or worse, people will wonder why. And by the time the city/town faces a serious lawsuit over such a case, the chief officer and those political officials are long gone. Meanwhile the damage is done and the rest of the taxpayers foot the bill.

 

Sadly while age is one factor in this sort of incident, being older does not remove the possibility of such a decision being made with bad results. This is why training is critical. Although I thin ongoing training has to be part of this also, getting a certification in order to be chief, then not taking some kind of command level CE, will quickly begin to chip away at the knowledge base.

[gamewell45 258]

On 3/30/2016 at 6:03 PM, nfd2004 said:

Do the citizens of this place who depend on their fire department know this ?

 

Do they know that this is the guy that will be responsible for spending their tax dollars when it comes to fire protection ?

 

Do they know that this is the guy that is going to be responsible for life and death decisions involving their family members and friends ?

 

My last question is, "Is this a hoax or some kind of April Fool joke" ?

I suspect that most of the citizens could care less as long as the trucks show up.  Most of them are ignorant on how the fire department operates.