Hudson River Incident Logistical Mess (Plural)

[nydude2473 79]

I'm going to hopefully just have to say something once and this nonsense is going to end on this topic. It is not right that certain people here are bashing certain organizations that are involved in conducting fire/rescue on the Hudson River. Everybody tries their best with what they have, whether it be manpower and resource wise. Some departments should know what they have and use them wisely. Some should know whether to go out or call in and say the resource isn't available at this time and then get the right resources out there. But, everybody has a role in trying to get good communication going and honestly certain groups don't like to play in the same sandbox with others for certain reasons that more than likely are ridiculous. I didn't hear anybody complain almost a month ago when a fatal tug accident occurred and the initial response was conducted in such an exceptional manor. The first responders got there within minutes of the accident and were able to conduct a rescue attempt that was absolutely textbook. Care was given and the guys went back out there to keep the operation going. No one said anything then. But, that's not always the case and sometimes people need to realize that and get a grip and not put blame on other people. What needs to start happening is working together than trying to work apart. If everybody knows that there is an incident on the River, maybe have a specific Marine Radio Channel open, designated for that traffic. Marine Radio is open to all and all you need is that Marine Radio. You don't need to have to relay traffic from one department to another then. Just have it put out there that this is the standard when an incident occurs. And everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, needs to be involved and know that. Trust me, no one is freelancing out on the River. 60 Control dispatches and units respond. And ultimately, no one can say anything if they haven't experienced it before or have been involved in the operations that occur on the Hudson River. It's just like the fireground, Stop Monday Morning Quaterbacking and stick to whatever you really know. There are guys putting themselves out there, on the line, and all some of you want to do is dog them...shame on you guys for that! We are all out here to do a service for our communities and to help save lives and property, remember the fundamentals sometimes guys!

[SECTMB 612]

Just curious.  Are the marine units operated by many of the departments 'real' fire-rescue boats? I know Yonkers, the County and Tarrytown have capable boats, but what kind of boats are utilized by other depts.  I spent some time on the river myself and it can get pretty rough out there at times.  

[Dinosaur 844]

22 hours ago, nydude2473 said:

I'm going to hopefully just have to say something once and this nonsense is going to end on this topic. It is not right that certain people here are bashing certain organizations that are involved in conducting fire/rescue on the Hudson River. Everybody tries their best with what they have, whether it be manpower and resource wise. Some departments should know what they have and use them wisely. Some should know whether to go out or call in and say the resource isn't available at this time and then get the right resources out there. But, everybody has a role in trying to get good communication going and honestly certain groups don't like to play in the same sandbox with others for certain reasons that more than likely are ridiculous. I didn't hear anybody complain almost a month ago when a fatal tug accident occurred and the initial response was conducted in such an exceptional manor. The first responders got there within minutes of the accident and were able to conduct a rescue attempt that was absolutely textbook. Care was given and the guys went back out there to keep the operation going. No one said anything then. But, that's not always the case and sometimes people need to realize that and get a grip and not put blame on other people. What needs to start happening is working together than trying to work apart. If everybody knows that there is an incident on the River, maybe have a specific Marine Radio Channel open, designated for that traffic. Marine Radio is open to all and all you need is that Marine Radio. You don't need to have to relay traffic from one department to another then. Just have it put out there that this is the standard when an incident occurs. And everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, needs to be involved and know that. Trust me, no one is freelancing out on the River. 60 Control dispatches and units respond. And ultimately, no one can say anything if they haven't experienced it before or have been involved in the operations that occur on the Hudson River. It's just like the fireground, Stop Monday Morning Quaterbacking and stick to whatever you really know. There are guys putting themselves out there, on the line, and all some of you want to do is dog them...shame on you guys for that! We are all out here to do a service for our communities and to help save lives and property, remember the fundamentals sometimes guys!

 

 

To the extent that bitching here doesn't solve any problems, I agree with you wholeheartedly. 

But to say that things are ever "textbook" on the river or that we shouldn't criticize in the hopes of making improvements and developing a more efficient mousetrap, sorry, you're wrong.  There hasn't been any agency bashing, there's criticism of the fact that the river is like the wild west and there is virtually no accountability, coordination, or efficiency in responses.  THAT is not bashing an agency; that's a statement based on a long career working on and near the river.  You can go back to Flight 1549 and there's a thread here saying "thank God he turned left and not right" because the outcome would not have been the same if that was in Westchester/Rockland (or Orange/Dutchess/Putnam). 

 

If you can't answer the fundamental question "who's in charge" of a response on the river, despite things like the Westchester River Emergency Advisory Board or whatever Nick Gasparre's attempt at bringing this to a real table was called, then there is a problem. 

I respect your position and agree that debating tactics isn't always productive, particularly in a forum like this one, but thinking your comment is the final word in this topic is, in a word, nonsense. 

[AFS1970 504]

Border areas will always be a problem. The river also has some unique safety issues both for responders and victims. Having multiple radios is not the best option for responding crew, having a dispatch center capable of patching different channels together is really the best option. Here in Stamford we have a couple of areas that are generally dual response with Greenwich. We have a permanent patch with Greenwich so both agencies can talk to each other. However if the incident does not include Greenwich on the initial another ground or tactical channel may be assigned. If so I can manually patch that channel into the Greenwich channel and their incoming units can talk to anyone on scene as if they were all on the same channel. Sadly we do not have that capability with 60 control, so instead Banksville (and I think also Pound Ridge) used to carry portables on our old high band system. I do not think either have our trunked radios now. On a statewide level we have stocks boxes available to deploy that will take portable radios provided on scene and patch them together through a hard wire connection. I know there is a state one available in Fairfield. I have been told there is one available somewhere in Stamford but I have never seen it and don't have a clue where it is or how to mobilize it.

 

So let dispatch be the resource they can be and give us the tools to do it right.

 

As for who is in charge, as we have moved kicking and screaming into ICS over the years we have to remember that when several agencies are assigned to the same incident, that it is still only one incident and as such there is a single IC. There may be various groups of regional resources and it makes perfect sense to have a local officer in charge of that group, but they are not the IC. That being said, we tend to fall back on the most common terminology and often don't think of what we are saying, so I can see a chief on one side of the river arriving on scene (shore) and assuming command, despite not really being anything more than a group leader for a region. With the radio troubles it is likely that the IC on the other side was unaware of this and was probably not all that offended.

 

As for what agencies responded and if they were really needed, just about every agency there is has a response plan. In the case of a river rescue (especially at night) that may include multiple agencies. Sometimes an agency calling for assistance is unaware of what the responding agency will actually send. Two local examples for me will follow.

 

1) Stamford Fire for a long time had a policy of sending their own RIT and Safety Officer on mutual aid fires. So one night New Canaan calls for a single Engine to help with in line pumping. They specifically needed this engine at a hydrant and gave directions to that hydrant. They got that engine, a second engine as the RIT and a Deputy Chief as a safety officer. To many this was overkill, and once it was determined that the RIT was not needed, New Canaan requested that Engine to relocate to their station for coverage. In the end the resources was not needed but was utilized in a better capacity. However Stamford still maintained the integrity of their SOG's and dispatched what they would normally send regardless of the specific request.

 

2) In Stamford our standard response to an MVC is 1 Engine, 1 Rescue & 1 Medic. Now on I95 the State Police gets on scene and tells their dispatcher they need EMS. They don't call us directly, they call Southwest C-Med who calls us. So all we really know is they want an ambulance. We still send all three, for a couple of reasons. First is for crew safety, the two big rigs can be blockers if nothing else. There is also the likelihood of needing additional manpower, since there are usually multiple patients, even when the injuries are minor. Third is that the State Police do not often give a good size up, and we have had EMS arrive and call for spill/leak control, extrication and even extinguishment, so now, no matter what the CSP asks for, they get EMS & FD. 

 

So if Rockland calls and says they have a River Rescue and want Westchester to come from their side, Westchester may just send a couple of boats, they may call for WCPD aviation, they will most likely do exactly what they would do if they were the primary agency getting the first call. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

[x635 4,066]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 5:40 PM, nydude2473 said:

 Trust me, no one is freelancing out on the River. 60 Control dispatches and units respond. It is not right that certain people here are bashing certain organizations that are involved in conducting fire/rescue on the Hudson River. Everybody tries their best with what they have, whether it be manpower and resource wise.

 

I was monitoring all of the agencies, simultaneously, using a couple of scanners during this most recent incident involving the kayak. If you're referencing my prior post on this topic, I suggest you go back and listen to ALL the audio of the following agencies on the following channels:

 

NOTE THESE ARE ALL INDIVIDUAL SEPERATE CHANNELS THAT WERE ALL USED DURING THE KAYAK INCIDENT:

60 Control-46.26

60 Control-Fire 14

60 Control-Fire 18

WCDES Fireground 1

WCDES Fireground 5

WCDES Fireground 7

Marine VHF 16

Tarrytown FD

Yonkers FD Operations

Yonkers PD

Empress EMS

Greenburgh PD & EMS

Irvington PD

WCPD

 

Now, after listening to ALL of the audio, explain how it is "bashing" and not restating the FACTS of what happened. Please explain how that is not something that can be improved on.

[SOUSGT 357]

22 hours ago, x635 said:

 

I was monitoring all of the agencies, simultaneously, using a couple of scanners during this most recent incident involving the kayak. If you're referencing my prior post on this topic, I suggest you go back and listen to ALL the audio of the following agencies on the following channels:

 

NOTE THESE ARE ALL INDIVIDUAL SEPERATE CHANNELS THAT WERE ALL USED DURING THE KAYAK INCIDENT:

60 Control-46.26

60 Control-Fire 14

60 Control-Fire 18

WCDES Fireground 1

WCDES Fireground 5

WCDES Fireground 7

Marine VHF 16

Tarrytown FD

Yonkers FD Operations

Yonkers PD

Empress EMS

Greenburgh PD & EMS

Irvington PD

WCPD

 

Now, after listening to ALL of the audio, explain how it is "bashing" and not restating the FACTS of what happened. Please explain how that is not something that can be improved on.

 

We can resolve the issue once and for all. Forget about the radios There are too many. Put one guy on the top of the new bridge and each boat would have to have a spotter looking there at all times.

 

[x635 4,066]

8 hours ago, SOUSGT said:

 

We can resolve the issue once and for all. Forget about the radios There are too many. Put one guy on the top of the new bridge and each boat would have to have a spotter looking there at all times.

 

 

I vote for that idea! Kind of like a lighthouse! My friend was up there the other day...the view is amazing and it's not even topped out yet!

[FD7807 59]

In respect to the amount of channels used marine incidents i contend it is the same as any multi jurisdictional incident. Each individual department signs on with its own dispatcher thensoeaks to WC then uses marine channels to issue securites then uses other WCFG firegrounds or a marine worming channel to speak boat to boat so yeah thats a lot of channels but each serves its own purpose.