Rye Mayor: FD Needs Restructuring

[NorthEndExpress 54]

Rye Mayor State Of The City 2016. Wonder what this means?

the re-structuring of our fire department, to provide for appropriate supervision and to re-calibrate the dynamics between professional and volunteer members;

[CaptainCharisma 34]

Rye needs more paid staffing per shift. They aren't going to solve anything by "recalibrating the dynamics" when volunteers can't even afford to live in the City.

[Dinosaur 844]

Ya think?

[SilentShadow 32]

The City Manager brought this "staffed for failure" issue up to the City Council last year. It's an interesting read, especially with all the money the City has and they still won't fund proper staffing.

Here's the article http://www.ryecityreview.com/city-manager-fire-department-staffed-for-failure/

[HalfVolley 11]

How many firefighters does Rye have on shift now, and what apparatus at what firehouses do they staff?

[letsgo1547 50]

That's it

[nydude2473 79]

That's absolutely scary! So they have 3 career guys and rely on the Volunteers who are barely existent, as it sounds from reading these posts. That sounds like the right equation for a bad event to happen. I know these cities, towns, and villages hate giving money to emergency services but this is absolutely ridiculous. Why does it always have to be till someone gets severely hurt or killed for someone to do anything.

[dwcfireman 656]

Why does it always have to be till someone gets severely hurt or killed for someone to do anything.

Because that's the way it is in America. I'm sure if the taxpayers knew exactly what was going on, how the money is being spent, then maybe someone will step to the plate and petition the problem. Until then, status quo.

I commend the leadership in the City of Rye for acknowledging that there is a problem in their emergency services AND that they want to fix it. Unfortunately, you and I both know that getting volunteers this day and age is extremely difficult. Who knows what the solution will be? I just hope the mayor and city manager think things out before declaring an idea as a solution.

[ProudImmortal 0]

How can anyone who would want to volunteer afford to live in Rye?

[TownCity 2]

Do Rye Firefighters have a contract yet?

Did they finalize the new positions they talked about for over a year in the 2016 budget yet?

Was a career firefighter appointed to this "committee"?

Has anybody noticed that Port Chester and Rye Brook are suffering from a career staffing shortage as well?

[Oaks 18]

Has anybody noticed that Port Chester and Rye Brook are suffering from a career staffing shortage as well?

What does that have anything to do with Rye? Especially since Port Chester is a department that has plenty of volunteers.

[nfd2004 750]

OnceOver, on 19 Jan 2016 - 4:36 PM, said:

What does that have anything to do with Rye? Especially since Port Chester is a department that has plenty of volunteers.

I view that as a point of a simple comparison of similar departments within the same geographical area. Maybe with similar issues and similar concerns too.

I remember the day when Port Chester had a fire claiming one of the largest life losses of a decade. That might still be on some peoples mind.

[TownCity 2]

What does that have anything to do with Rye? Especially since Port Chester is a department that has plenty of volunteers.

When Engine 59 relocates to Rye Brook for coverage each night, sometimes they have to take Engine 58 out of service due to inadequate staffing levels. And, like Rye Firefighters, they also are working without a contract for a long while now.

[letsgo1547 50]

How come Engine 59 relocates every night?

[BFD2553 75]

Does anyone on here know FACTUALLY (not asking for opinions) how many active interior qualified volunteers are on the current roster in Rye?

[SECTMB 612]

How can anyone who would want to volunteer afford to live in Rye?

This is a problem throughout Westchester County. The average price of a home in Rye is over $1.5 Million dollars. If you can afford a $1.5 Million dollar home, either you are working your ass off to afford it and would never have the time necessary to be a volunteer firefighter, or they simply wouldn't have the demeanor usually associated with persons who volunteer to be firefighters.

[nfd2004 750]

SECTMB, on 20 Jan 2016 - 7:04 PM, said:

This is a problem throughout Westchester County. The average price of a home in Rye is over $1.5 Million dollars. If you can afford a $1.5 Million dollar home, either you are working your ass off to afford it and would never have the time necessary to be a volunteer firefighter, or they simply wouldn't have the demeanor usually associated with persons who volunteer to be firefighters.

Of course that is correct. But with property values being that high, I would guess adding a few career guys shouldn't be too hard to do. There's probably entire streets where the whole block isn't worth $1.5 million dollars in some places. I would guess that public safety is a lot more important than some of the other city services offered. Where does all that tax money go ? From reading here, it doesn't seem that it is spent on the fire department.

[TBarnum 2]

Does anyone on here know FACTUALLY (not asking for opinions) how many active interior qualified volunteers are on the current roster in Rye?

I went on city's website ryeny.gov and watched the Rye City Council budget workshop from Nov 16 2015 and during the discussions about personnel it was stated that there were

18 volunteer interior firefighters & 17 career interior firefighters.

[dwcfireman 656]

I went on city's website ryeny.gov and watched the Rye City Council budget workshop from Nov 16 2015 and during the discussions about personnel it was stated that there were

18 volunteer interior firefighters & 17 career interior firefighters.

Even though there's 17 career firefighters, there's only 3 on duty at a time, and they're essentially paid drivers.

And of the 18 volunteers, most of them probably have 9-5 jobs and aren't around for the majority of calls. I'm sure some of them even have second (or third) jobs, too. Which leaves the question, how many volunteers are responding on average to an alarm? 3? 5? 10?

Unless there's a huge volunteer on every alarm, the staffing levels are dangerously low.

[turk182 37]

Even though there's 17 career firefighters, there's only 3 on duty at a time, and they're essentially paid drivers.

And of the 18 volunteers, most of them probably have 9-5 jobs and aren't around for the majority of calls. I'm sure some of them even have second (or third) jobs, too. Which leaves the question, how many volunteers are responding on average to an alarm? 3? 5? 10?

Unless there's a huge volunteer on every alarm, the staffing levels are dangerously low.

"THEY'RE ESSENTIIALLY PAID DRIVERS". You are kidding right! Is that some kind of joke? Besides the fact that calling a career firefighter a " paid driver " is insulting what insight do you have in the Rye Fire Department that allows you to make that statement ?

Rye's career firefighters are quite often the first firefighters on a scene, what do you think they do when they arrive, sit in the truck and wait for someone else to show up ? In case you are wondering the answer is NO. In 2015 Rye had 12 working fires, in everyone of those fires one of the guys working was on the first line in.

In 2015 Rye started the year with 18 interior qualified volunteer firefighters by the end of 2015 that number had dropped to 14. In 2016 Rye's interior firefighter list is starting the year with 13 volunteers on it, those 13 will need to complete some very minimal training in order to remain interior qualified. Only time can tell where we will be at the end of 2016.

The average response in 2016 was 5.58 firefighters per call. Now if you want to drill that down a little. There are approximate 88 days in the year when there will be four firefighters working(due to schedule and vacation). Monday thru Friday the career lieutenant works 9 to 5 and responds to all calls. Additionally anytime there is a incident of any real significance there is a automatic recall of career staff. So that 5.58 is not even real but that is the best number there is to answer your question.

I am not trying to take anything away from the core group of volunteers we do have, they are a good group of guys that have busy lives outside the firehouse. i am not going to attempt to explain the dynamics of the membership, they are there to provide a service to the community and they do it to the best of there ability.

Needless to say when the stuff hits the fan we are severely lacking appropriate manpower. The hope would be that the Mayors group takes that into account and takes whatever action may be needed.

[Dinosaur 844]

"THEY'RE ESSENTIIALLY PAID DRIVERS". You are kidding right! Is that some kind of joke? Besides the fact that calling a career firefighter a " paid driver " is insulting what insight do you have in the Rye Fire Department that allows you to make that statement ?

Rye's career firefighters are quite often the first firefighters on a scene, what do you think they do when they arrive, sit in the truck and wait for someone else to show up ? In case you are wondering the answer is NO. In 2015 Rye had 12 working fires, in everyone of those fires one of the guys working was on the first line in.

In 2015 Rye started the year with 18 interior qualified volunteer firefighters by the end of 2015 that number had dropped to 14. In 2016 Rye's interior firefighter list is starting the year with 13 volunteers on it, those 13 will need to complete some very minimal training in order to remain interior qualified. Only time can tell where we will be at the end of 2016.

The average response in 2016 was 5.58 firefighters per call. Now if you want to drill that down a little. There are approximate 88 days in the year when there will be four firefighters working(due to schedule and vacation). Monday thru Friday the career lieutenant works 9 to 5 and responds to all calls. Additionally anytime there is a incident of any real significance there is a automatic recall of career staff. So that 5.58 is not even real but that is the best number there is to answer your question.

I am not trying to take anything away from the core group of volunteers we do have, they are a good group of guys that have busy lives outside the firehouse. i am not going to attempt to explain the dynamics of the membership, they are there to provide a service to the community and they do it to the best of there ability.

Needless to say when the stuff hits the fan we are severely lacking appropriate manpower. The hope would be that the Mayors group takes that into account and takes whatever action may be needed.

If you're actually defending the notion that 5.58 FF responding to a fire is acceptable, due respect, you're part of the problem. Read NFPA 1710 or 1720 or whatever applies to that thing you call a fire department.

I am continually amazed that people continue to defend grossly understaffed departments as if what they have is acceptable. This is 2016 in one of the most heavily taxed counties in the country and we still send 5.58 FF to a fire call.

And the icing on the cake for me is that's the AVERAGE. Meaning half the time you respond with less than that. Pathetic!

[x635 4,066]

turk182, thanks for posting the factual information on here.

If you're actually defending the notion that 5.58 FF responding to a fire is acceptable, due respect, you're part of the problem. Read NFPA 1710 or 1720 or whatever applies to that thing you call a fire department.

I don't think he wasn't defending it at all, he was just taking the time to explain the real numbers.

[turk182 37]

To be clear I am far from defending anything, not sure where you got that from.

[dwcfireman 656]

"THEY'RE ESSENTIIALLY PAID DRIVERS". You are kidding right! Is that some kind of joke? ......

First, I appreciate you taking the time to provide the numbers.

Second, my intention was not to offend any body. My point was that you cannot guarantee a large number of volunteers for every call (trust me, I'm a volunteer, too, and I speak from experience) to supplement a small paid staff. And, since volunteers have to work other jobs to earn livable wages, you can't guarantee that enough of them will be around for every call. This is where having an aggressive recruitment AND retention program works. Get them in and keep them in.

Third, if you think I'm belittling the paid staff in your fire house...I'm not. You assumed that I meant that the paid staff IS paid drivers rather than what I ACTUALLY meant: They get the apparatus to the scene. At no point did I ever mention that they just sit at the pump, sit on the turntable, or just hang out in the driver seat. I know that plenty of departments with small staffs utilize their drivers for on-scene operations (some supplemented by volunteers, some without). It's just the way it is around southern Westchester...hell, even around the country!

[BFD2553 75]

Thanks Lt. for the numbers. I wish more members here would have the knowledge in hand before they go off. Clearly there is a staffing issue not just in Rye but throughout the County and the State. I see it in my own department as well. Part of the "problem" is the dependency on Mutual Aid meaning many local governments have come to use it to bail out their own understaffed departments as if other cities, towns and villages resources are theirs to use at will to supplement their shortcomings. In my district we utilize it frequently and it works. Most towns here are "working class" and most departments are all-volunteer though several have career staff as well and they respond to requests for mutual aid whenever called. Many say consolidation into all-career departments is the only and inevitable answer. I am on the fence and see that position as viable but not inevitable. Perhaps Rye needs more career staff BUT perhaps they need to step up their recruitment and retention efforts on the volunteer side as well. Hopefully it won't take a tragedy before both sides of the issue are explored. I'll strap my helmet on and hunker down now. Be safe everyone.

[nydude2473 79]

The options are endless on how to solve this problem that not only Rye is having, but also other departments in the county, as was stated before. However, my feeling is that even though we want to retain membership and boost the rolls for career guys, it all starts with these administrations that are in control of these municipalities. It all starts at city hall and without some kind of grassroots effort across the board, none of this is ever going to change. Also, this culture has to change among politicians and emergency services, where they think that first responders are expendable and that they don't need the resources or staffing and that they need to suck it up. This is how people get killed and how lawsuits are formed. If more time was spent worrying about safety and security and infrastructure and not making "Main Street" look better with more trees and latte shops, things would be in much better shape, but then we would be living in a utopia and that ain't going to happen any time soon.

[FireMedic049 597]

If you're actually defending the notion that 5.58 FF responding to a fire is acceptable, due respect, you're part of the problem. Read NFPA 1710 or 1720 or whatever applies to that thing you call a fire department.

I am continually amazed that people continue to defend grossly understaffed departments as if what they have is acceptable. This is 2016 in one of the most heavily taxed counties in the country and we still send 5.58 FF to a fire call.

And the icing on the cake for me is that's the AVERAGE. Meaning half the time you respond with less than that. Pathetic!

I doubt that you are seeing as many people as you think actually defending "grossly understaffed departments". I think you may be misconstruing explanations of a department's staffing situation as a defense of them in the sense that you assert.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people, if any (actual firefighters), that actually think that sending only an average of 5.58 FFs to a working fire as being acceptable. Very few of us actually have the ability to determine the staffing levels for our departments. As such, far too many of us must make the best of the less than ideal hand that we are each dealt.

NFPA 1710 and 1720 are nice, but unfortunately they're still kind of all bark and no bite on the front end. I can wave a copy of 1710 in front of my Mayor and Council every day, but it's not gonna get my department to 4 per apparatus and 17 on-duty. The money simply isn't there for that level of staffing and we'll be lucky to maintain where we're at now in the next few years. There are a lot of small departments out there just like us and some in worse shape. It's not ideal and it's only "acceptable" in the context that it's our reality and not changing anytime soon.

Oftentimes these discussions seem to focus on the limited on-duty staffing of a particular department, but overlooks the total response to a working incident which can result in a far more acceptable number of FFs on the fireground. My department, for example, averages 6 FFs on-duty. However, a working fire will also get a callback of off-duty personnel plus mutual aid. On average, this doubles our own personnel and the mutual aid units easily push us over 20-25 FFs on the fire ground relatively quickly. Many others do something similar.

[nydude2473 79]

But see I don't know if that is acceptable though. I've kind of mentioned it before in other posts regarding mutual aid. If you consider yourself a "city", then you should have adequate staffing regardless. It's not fair to other communities that places like these rely on them to send their fire companies over to fight fire for hours, when the same thing could happen in their town and then who is left to fight it there? If you call yourself a "paid" department, then you should have the right staffing and right equipment to get the job done. Nothing against the paid departments and nothing wrong with them being supplemented by volunteers. But, these municipalities got to realize that you can't rely on that all the time. As volunteers, we do our best to be around 24/7, but that's not always possible when we are working our own jobs and taking care of our families. Either fully staff and fund these departments or watch the s*** hit the fan and lose money through lawsuits, plain and simple.

[nfd2004 750]

Maybe instead of waving NFPA 1710 and 1720 in front of the mayor and the council, maybe we should get them to watch something like this. Tell them "this could be their house". Tell them mutual aid may take awhile and see if they think it might be a little more important to have more manning arriving quickly.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=piofZLySsNc

Edited January 23, 2016 by nfd2004

[Dinosaur 844]

To be clear I am far from defending anything, not sure where you got that from.

My apologies. I misinterpreted your message.