Hawthorne Mutual Aid To Pleasantville VAC

[N1Medic 69]

I've heard Hawthorne numerous times over the past couple of weeks going mutual aid to Pleasantville for EMS calls.

Does Hawthorne have a paid crew for their ambulance? Do they send them on mutual aid? If they do send the EMT's Hawthorne pays for, are the Hawthorne taxpayers footing the bill to cover all these Pleasantville calls, technically giving Pleasantville free paid staff?

[Viper 139]

Answer? Consolidation. Mount Pleasant EMS (Hawthorne, Valhalla, Sleepy Hollow, and Pleasantville)

[GAW6 66]

I've heard Hawthorne numerous times over the past couple of weeks going mutual aid to Pleasantville for EMS calls.

Does Hawthorne have a paid crew for their ambulance? Do they send them on mutual aid? If they do send the EMT's Hawthorne pays for, are the Hawthorne taxpayers footing the bill to cover all these Pleasantville calls, technically giving Pleasantville free paid staff?

I am sure whomever you are, you have started this post to "stir the pot". Yes, Hawthorne FD has been doing numerous mutual aid calls for Pleasantville VAC. Again, since I do not know who you are or where you are from (profile is very vague), perhaps you do not know a lot of history. I can fill you in:

1. Pleasantville is currently taking steps to cover costs to pay for per diem EMTs. The annual budget for PVAC is $169k - to cover costs to run (3) ambulances and a rehab unit - not to mention equipment, insurance, etc. Not to mention, PVAC covers (2) Fire Districts - Thornwood and Pleasantville - who have a combined annual budget of almost $2 million.

2. For many years, Hawthorne had problems covering calls to which PVAC covered many and a couple of PVAC members (one being myself) were made "mutual aid members" of Hawthorne FD ambulance and would cover their calls.

3. When Hawthorne FD had a handful of interior firefighters, Thornwood FD was on automatic mutual aid. No one complained about the taxpayers covering this.

4. If Hawthorne is worried about paying for their EMTs out of taxpayer money, are they doing anything to recruit new members?

I will be more than glad to answer any further questions you may have.

Edited January 6, 2016 by GAW6

[nydude2473 79]

With things being the way they are these days, I don't know how successful a "Mount Pleasant" EMS would be. You already have three different BLS/ALS providers in some of those communities. There are already contracts with these groups and I highly doubt anybody wants to lose out on money. Sadly, that's what it comes down to these days, it's never about the needs of the community.

[ex-commish 490]

Hawthorne has a contract with Empress EMS for coverage 24/7. In my recent years on the board of fire commissioners I did not see any attempt to recruit people for EMS. They have however recruited a fair amount of firefighters. If I recall paid ems was supposed to be temporary until either we recruited more volunteers or sought other means of providing EMS coverage which I was a proponent unfortunately fell on deaf ears with some of my colleagues on the board. And GAW6 is absolutely on point when she says PVAC was bailing us out thanks to them our calls were being covered

[DaRock98 76]

I've heard Hawthorne numerous times over the past couple of weeks going mutual aid to Pleasantville for EMS calls.

Does Hawthorne have a paid crew for their ambulance? Do they send them on mutual aid? If they do send the EMT's Hawthorne pays for, are the Hawthorne taxpayers footing the bill to cover all these Pleasantville calls, technically giving Pleasantville free paid staff?

Yes Hawthorne does have 2 paid EMT's from Empress EMS staffing the ambulance 24/7.

Yes the paid staff does respond mutual aid so yes they do respond into Pleasantville.

And despite what others posted in here Hawthorne FD has recruited members for EMS over the years. The new recruits join and feel that unless they are sitting at the station 24/7 it is hard for them to respond to calls and get any real time and on the job training because they can never make it down to the firehouse before the ambulance gets out the door. Those members resign fairly quickly and have been told to try other VAC's for example PVAC. Having paid staffing in our EMS system to me is a double edge sword on one hand the ambulance is getting on scene in a timely fashion to provide quality pt care but on the other hand it deters a lot of new recruits away.

I've been saying this for years that its time for a Mt. Pleasant EMS system to take place.... PVAC is the last VAC in Mt.Pleasant to run a strictly volunteer ems system they see the issues they are having and are working towards a solution. Maybe its time for everyone to look at the bigger picture here and combine EMS services in the Mt.Pleasant area.

Maybe we can stick to the topic at hand now about EMS service in the Mt. Pleasant area. If someone would like to talk about Thornwood FD and Hawthorne FD's dual response they had set up for 1 year we can start a separate topic.

Joe Carpentieri

[Dinosaur 844]

With things being the way they are these days, I don't know how successful a "Mount Pleasant" EMS would be. You already have three different BLS/ALS providers in some of those communities. There are already contracts with these groups and I highly doubt anybody wants to lose out on money. Sadly, that's what it comes down to these days, it's never about the needs of the community.

You're making your own case for it. Consolidate the five or six different agencies within the town into one and now you're paying one insurance bill, you can probably reduce the size of the fleet, you have all kinds of economies of scale, and most important - all the members would be able to respond to any calls anywhere in the town. Paid personnel could be strategically based to cover the most calls efficiently and volunteers could be used to augment.

I don't really see a downside. As for losing out on money, who's really making any???

[nydude2473 79]

Look, I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy but you got to look at the situations at hand. Different communities, different paid providers, different village administrations. Not everybody is going to be happy happy about consolidation. People aren't happy with each other, let alone bringing four different agencies together. Is it possible to be done? Well, anything is possible with enough positive attitude and willpower. But, I don't see these four very different villages getting together to do this. Transcare just lost their contract in New Rochelle, Empress is gaining more ground in the county, and OVAC has a nice set up going with Sleepy Hollow. If you're truly saying money isn't an issue then God Bless because all I hear about is contracts here and contracts there. EMS is a business and business is always booming. No one is going to miss out on it if they are already in it. And if I'm not mistaken, Briarcliff Manor is technically part of the Town of Mount Pleasant so, are you saying they need to consolidate as well, even though they have a contract with OVAC as well? It can't be a pick and choose who joins or doesn't. It wouldn't make sense to have a "Mount Pleasant EMS" if not all of Mount Pleasant is involved. Just saying!

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Look, I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy but you got to look at the situations at hand. Different communities, different paid providers, different village administrations. Not everybody is going to be happy happy about consolidation. People aren't happy with each other, let alone bringing four different agencies together. Is it possible to be done? Well, anything is possible with enough positive attitude and willpower. But, I don't see these four very different villages getting together to do this. Transcare just lost their contract in New Rochelle, Empress is gaining more ground in the county, and OVAC has a nice set up going with Sleepy Hollow. If you're truly saying money isn't an issue then God Bless because all I hear about is contracts here and contracts there. EMS is a business and business is always booming. No one is going to miss out on it if they are already in it. And if I'm not mistaken, Briarcliff Manor is technically part of the Town of Mount Pleasant so, are you saying they need to consolidate as well, even though they have a contract with OVAC as well? It can't be a pick and choose who joins or doesn't. It wouldn't make sense to have a "Mount Pleasant EMS" if not all of Mount Pleasant is involved. Just saying!

It could be done. It may not be easy but it's possible. EMS is even more fragmented and disorganized than the fire service. If agencies are having a hard time getting out the door, working together could be a good option. There are also fewer laws and regulations in the way for merging or consolidating EMS agencies than there are for fire departments.

[STAT213 332]

What I don't get is why it seems that volunteer = respond from home? Why is that? Why not be in the station?

Why not try this as well? Have the staffed ambulance move around? Have each vac take turns?

How many calls are each of the agencies doing?

There are many steps between fully paid and volunteer from home. Are you trying any of them?

[GreatPlains588 131]

Just curious?

Mount Pleasant is a town in Westchester County, New York, in the United States. As of the 2010 census, the town population was 43,724.[2] The villages of Valhalla, Hawthorne, Thornwood ,

Pleasantville and part of Briarcliff Manor lie within the town,[a] as well as a number of hamlets.

The town has a total area of 32.7 square miles (85 km2), of which 27.7 square miles (72 km2) is land and 5.0 square miles (13 km2), or 15.26%, is water.

Taken from Wikipedia.

Is there a formula for how many BLS and ALS units a town this size needs?

[ex-commish 490]

What I don't get is why it seems that volunteer = respond from home? Why is that? Why not be in the station?

Why not try this as well? Have the staffed ambulance move around? Have each vac take turns?

How many calls are each of the agencies doing?

There are many steps between fully paid and volunteer from home. Are you trying any of them?

What other steps do you recommend.

Andy Mancusi

[AFS1970 504]

Volunteering does not need to be done from home, but it is able to be done from home in many communities. The biggest single factor effecting this type of response would be call volume, after that would be the distance / response time. Look at the thread on run totals, many of the departments are in the 300's, which means for the most part 1 call a day. In a system like this it is hard to justify full time staff, paid or volunteer. I know of one own where it is small enough and most members live in town that home response is very easy to accomplish. Another I heard of had a member who took home a fly car and home responders who went and got the ambulance. Different solutions work for different towns although all have some similarities.

As for the double edges sword, this is an issue in the fire service also, although it is mitigated sometimes by the need for multiple apparatus. What I have see is a call comes in that 3 rigs would go to, you have a crew for the 1st rig in quarters, so they get out fairly quickly. As members come in and get the other rigs on the road the crew of the first rig starts canceling them en route. This in turn has the effect of members not seeing themselves as useful and leading to less responses and eventually quitting. I don;t know the answer to that, because I would not want to keep unneeded units on the road, but the sudden cancellations were definitely a problem. This sounds like the same thing being reported by the VAC in questions.

[Gomer 25]

Is there a formula for how many BLS and ALS units a town this size needs?

I think there are 10 million formulas, depending on who you ask. I would think at least two flycars and 5 BLS ambulances. That's just my rough estimation based on comparable areas. That can vary by trend as well, such as time of day.

By the way, did anyone hear a rumor about Mount Pleasant getting a grant for two flycars?

[ex-commish 490]

By the way, did anyone hear a rumor about Mount Pleasant getting a grant for two flycars?

No, care to elaborate?

[nydude2473 79]

I think there are 10 million formulas, depending on who you ask. I would think at least two flycars and 5 BLS ambulances. That's just my rough estimation based on comparable areas. That can vary by trend as well, such as time of day.

By the way, did anyone hear a rumor about Mount Pleasant getting a grant for two flycars?

Not to try and nitpick but 5 ambulances to cover all of the Town of Mt. Pleasant? That's a lot of stretching of resources I think. How could it work if a call drops in Pleasantville and the bus located there is on a call and the only available one is in Sleepy Hollow. Then, a call drops in Sleepy Hollow and their bus is on that job and a bus from Valhalla has to come cover. To me that doesn't make sense. Sleepy Hollow gets a lot of calls and might need two buses while let's say Hawthorne might only need one, just saying. No one knows the right number. I know what you're saying is just an estimate but just because some place else that is comparable in size has those capabilities, doesn't mean it can work in this equation. The communities are different in population size. One solution can't fix that. A solution for Hawthorne and Pleasantville might not work somewhere else. And about the flycars, if they were mentioned as Mt. Pleasant, those are more than likely new Transcare flycars because I know they have the designation as Mt. Pleasant Medics.

[STAT213 332]

Here's my experience with staffing levels. Worked in Syracuse, NY back in the 1990s and 2000s. City of 100000 or so. Daytime EMS including transfers was a max of 10. Unit hour utilization was tracked meticulously. Night time was 4 ambulances over night. That was usually enough.

Where I work now, I'm in a town of 35k. We have one ambulance staffed and cross staff three others. We get mutual aid in very infrequently, maybe once a week.

Mt. Pleasant is the same geographic size about - 35 square miles. So, five dedicated BLS trucks seems a bit much. Probably do it with three. Depends what benchmarks for response time you want to hit, and how much to spend. I bet you could do it with three trucks and one ALS unit if you triaged a good number of calls down to BLS or AEMT level.

There are formulas for this. If you want service at your door in four minutes or less 90 % of the time, add more trucks and stations. It's not rocket science. The city of Syracuse (Fire, not ambulance) has their stations arranged to be anywhere in the city in four minutes. For a city of 100k that's 10 stations. EMS does system status management to position units to be on scene within 8 minutes 90 percent of the time.

[N1Medic 69]

1. Pleasantville is currently taking steps to cover costs to pay for per diem EMTs. The annual budget for PVAC is $169k - to cover costs to run (3) ambulances and a rehab unit - not to mention equipment, insurance, etc.

I will be more than glad to answer any further questions you may have.

2 questions.

Does Pleasantville bill?

And has the bid been awarded to WEMS or Empress yet?

[GAW6 66]

2 questions.

Does Pleasantville bill?

And has the bid been awarded to WEMS or Empress yet?

Presently not billing; in the process of setting up a billing system.

What bid are you referring to?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I would love to see a "summit" of all the EMS agencies in the county where the system is discussed and opportunities for improvement are discussed and a long-term plan for an EMS System in Westchester County is discussed. We are so badly compartmentalized that this has never happened.

[Gomer 25]

Transcare management was seen yesterday afternoon at Mount Pleasant Town Hall walking into a Town officials office. Could mean something, could mean nothing.

[nydude2473 79]

Transcare management was seen yesterday afternoon at Mount Pleasant Town Hall walking into a Town officials office. Could mean something, could mean nothing.

They are trying to stay afloat! God be with them, since it looks like Empress is trying to take the whole county.

I would love to see a "summit" of all the EMS agencies in the county where the system is discussed and opportunities for improvement are discussed and a long-term plan for an EMS System in Westchester County is discussed. We are so badly compartmentalized that this has never happened.

I think your absolutely right! Considerations have to be made about certain communities for their EMS services, but absolutely think something needs to be done. Some places could and should definitely consolidate, and others seem to be doing fine on their own. Everything needs to be reviewed!

[N1Medic 69]

Hawthorne FD EMS just got dispatched to Pleasantville again. This is becoming a daily occurrence, and has been going on for quite a while now.

Why not call Transcare, Empress, WEMS or Care one and have them post a bus in the area until this is resolved? I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige until Pleasantville can start billing and hire paid staff as mentioned above. But I guess they technically have paid staff already by using Hawthorne's paid crew so much.

And don't knock me for bringing this up. Anybody monitoring the radios can hear this going on for themselves.

[AirOne 6]

I know Pleasantville VAC moved from Marble Ave to Gramercy Place a while back. Are they still on Gramercy Place?

[KelliPVAC 32]

Hawthorne FD EMS just got dispatched to Pleasantville again. This is becoming a daily occurrence, and has been going on for quite a while now.

Why not call Transcare, Empress, WEMS or Care one and have them post a bus in the area until this is resolved? I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige until Pleasantville can start billing and hire paid staff as mentioned above. But I guess they technically have paid staff already by using Hawthorne's paid crew so much.

And don't knock me for bringing this up. Anybody monitoring the radios can hear this going on for themselves.

Hi, sorry I'm a little late on this post. I am the new Captain of PVAC. We are working on correcting our problem. If you have any questions, please send me a private message.