Understaffed Mutual Aid Manpower

[NorthEndExpress 54]

Last night, Eastchester took the manpower from Engine 31 and placed them on Tower Ladder 17 to respond to the fire scene in Mount Vernon.

Why is a department that is already understaffed, stripping an entire section of town of coverage to send to another understaffed department? I wouldn't want to live on Garth Rd and need a Tower Ladder.

[LineCapt 134]

Pelham and Pelham Manor got called to fill Mount Vernon last night, and they are severely understaffed as well. It's not really these departments faults that they are understaffed, but the fact they are understaffed and leave their districts to cover another understaffed district is mind boggling.

[nfdcanman 29]

nothing changes till people will first admit there is a problem!

[kinkchaser 352]

The only realistic solution is some degree of a regional approach. otherwise this will still be a topic for the next 100 years

A coming together of the willing.

[Dinosaur 844]

The only realistic solution is some degree of a regional approach. otherwise this will still be a topic for the next 100 years

A coming together of the willing.

Gotta bring the unwilling together as well! Can't approach this in the same way we have approached everything else in emergency services for the past quarter century!

[Dinosaur 844]

Remember this?

How much progress have we made in the past 6.5 years?

http://www.larchmontgazette.com/2009WP/2009graphics/firereport.pdf

[TimesUp 148]

The Mayor of mt vernon figured out a way to save money. Instead of putting money into his fire budget he uses other town's or city's fire budget. He's ahead of his time and he thanks all.

Edited December 23, 2015 by ltrob

[FireMedic049 597]

Maybe I'm missing something since I live in another state, but if another fire department has a working fire and needs more help, why wouldn't a department send whatever help was requested or what they could reasonably send?

I can understand putting your foot down if the other department is abusing the system, like Mt. Vernon appears to be doing with not calling in their off-duty personnel, in order force the issue, but I've always been of the opinion that you shouldn't short a working incident in progress because another call might happen during it.

If responding to the working incident leaves your area short, then call back off-duty personnel to staff reserve units or transfer units into the area to cover.

[spike2231 38]

They do not let the volunteers into mt vernon anymore thats why these depts.

are stripping their districts

[ttomcap 18]

Pelham and Pelham Manor got called to fill Mount Vernon last night, and they are severely understaffed as well. It's not really these departments faults that they are understaffed, but the fact they are understaffed and leave their districts to cover another understaffed district is mind boggling.

They built up the volunteers and reduced the paid staff. Now there aren't hardly any volunteers left and the paid staff is at the same level. They need to hire more paid staff.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Gotta bring the unwilling together as well! Can't approach this in the same way we have approached everything else in emergency services for the past quarter century!

Until the New York State "Home Rule" is totally abolished (and we all know that the UNIONS will 'Never' allow this to happen), the concept of either a Regional or Consolidated Fire Service in the County of Westcehster will NOT happen and this MADNESS of a CRIPPLED Mutual Aid System (specifically tied to the City of Mount Vernon) will continue to happen

[robert benz 344]

Until the New York State "Home Rule" is totally abolished (and we all know that the UNIONS will 'Never' allow this to happen), the concept of either a Regional or Consolidated Fire Service in the County of Westcehster will NOT happen and this MADNESS of a CRIPPLED Mutual Aid System (specifically tied to the City of Mount Vernon) will continue to happen

why would the unions stop home rule?

[Morningjoe 162]

Until the New York State "Home Rule" is totally abolished (and we all know that the UNIONS will 'Never' allow this to happen), the concept of either a Regional or Consolidated Fire Service in the County of Westcehster will NOT happen and this MADNESS of a CRIPPLED Mutual Aid System (specifically tied to the City of Mount Vernon) will continue to happen

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.

Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

Edited December 27, 2015 by Morningjoe

[4truck48 25]

Before you knock the unions ( who keep pushing for increased training and manpower) about blocking Home Rule why not lobby for one standard for all firefighters in the state, paid or volunteer. That would include new firefighters, in service training for all firefighters, response times, manning on apparatus, promoting officers on qualifications not on election results. Not to mention mandatory retirement age so we don't have a rig responding with 3 or4 70 year old men on it with a 19 year old lieutenant because that was all that was around.

[BFD2553 75]

Here we go....

[4truck48 25]

What do you mean " here we go" what didn't say that was wrong? That there should be one standard for firefighters.

[wedgeclose 59]

The practice of stripping other departments needs to end RIGHT NOW! It is going to happen one of these days that a major fire in a "stripped" department isn't covered. What are these mayors and other politicians going to say then? Ooops doesn't cut it! If Mt. Vernon is so understaffed that they go mutual aid on just about any structure fire something is very wrong! Maybe if these corrupt mayors (seems like Mt. Vernon mayors have always been corrupt) can't be stopped then THE STATE or THE COUNTY needs to come in and take over until the problem is rectified!

Pelham and Pelham Manor PAY THEIR FIREFIGHTERS to fight fires in their respective villages. They should be forbidden to fill Mt. Vernon until Mt. Vernon fully staffs their department. If they need to call in off-duty so be it....that should happen first and only after that should anyone consider responding Mutual Aid!

I am thankful that I live in an ALL VOLUNTEER DISTRICT and am not worried at all about MY FIREDEPARTMENT responding to any alarm or providing some manpower to surrounding towns or villages. I am confident that should WE NEED help from them that they will respond as well.

[4truck48 25]

This is not a paid vs volunteer thing, it's a there should be ONE standard for ALL firefighters. There's should also be one standard for fire departments. All departments should be able to put the minimum number of properly trained firefighters on the scene in the generally accepted national standard. While Mt. Vernon seems to take the brunt of public flogging, with the exception of Yonkers and possibly New Rocelle no other fire department it Westchester can even fight a room and contents fire without Mutual Aid. Is Mt. Vernon undermanned yes, but so is basically every fire dept in Westchester.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I'm not sure that home rule or unions are the problem or would alter the situation if they were different.

The problem is no standards!

Quite frankly there are a lot of so-called career departments operating every day with no regard for staffing standards so the lack of standards is not strictly a volunteer issue.

[FireMedic049 597]

Quite frankly there are a lot of so-called career departments operating every day with no regard for staffing standards so the lack of standards is not strictly a volunteer issue.

I wouldn't necessarily classify it as having "no regard for staffing standards" in the career departments that are "understaffed", at least not at the FD level.

Typically the guys/gals on the street know that they are "understaffed" whether it be in terms of individual unit staffing, number/type of staffed apparatus and/or overall shift staffing. We often have to work with the hand we are dealt rather than the one we'd like to have. Very few firefighters in any career department have any real influence when it comes to setting staffing levels. The unions can only do so much to address the matter and sometimes it comes down to deciding what is the best of several bad options.

A few years ago Gary, IN was having severe financial issues (not that they aren't now) and the decision was made to reduce staffing on all companies in order to save money. Pretty sure it was a reduction from 4 to 3 per unit. The contract called for minimum unit staffing of 4 and the union filed a grievance over the reduction. It eventually went to arbitration and the union won the grievance and the City was ordered to put the 4th FF back on all in service units.

The City complied and immediately put the 4th FF went back, but at the same time they closed several more companies in order to do it and still save the money. The legal precedent regarding staffing is basically that unit staffing is enforceable in arbitration, but overall shift staffing and number/type of apparatus in service essentially fall to managerial prerogative and can't be imposed by an arbitrator.

So, in this situation, the union technically prevailed and kept the 4th FF, but they ended up losing a few engine/truck companies. So, it begs the question in a situation like this, are you better off with 5 engines & 1 truck staffed with 4 FF each or with 6 engines & 2 trucks with 3 FF each?

In my small career department, if we were to have to comply with a 4 FF per unit requirement, it would pretty much close our second unit (engine) and station almost every day. Right now, our first unit has 3 on it most of the time, occasionally 4 and the second has 3 probably around half the time. Being forced into a single unit would significantly impact our operational flexibility, increase response times to half of the city and in all honesty, not be any "safer" for us. We'd love to have more on-duty staffing, but that's just not in the cards anytime soon. This works for 90+% of our calls and we rely on our off-duty personnel and neighboring VFDs for the calls that need more.