What is a fire departments responsibility to its customers

[robert benz 344]

Do we owe the public the truth about their fire depts. ability to handle a structure fire? What I mean by that is we ask the taxpayers for money to run the dept, yet in truth, on any given day at any given time, it takes more than THAT dept to control the situation. Forget career / volunteer bs, this is across the board. This is not about the big one or needing a tanker/tender shuttle operation, this is the room and contents, fire that your patch on your sleeve proudly says WE CAN HANDLE.

Mutual aid to cover the empty fire houses, no problem.

Why is it the neighboring taxpayers responsibility to send its tax dollar funded dept to assist with your BASIC fire.

something is wrong here, and the longer we put our heads in the sand......................

[Dinosaur 844]

Great question, Chief! Sadly I don't think it will get much of a response.

When you consider how poorly our elected officials communicate their performance to the taxpayer, I doubt very highly this would get any traction in the community regardless of how real the problem may be.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

All dependent on the service your town expects from its fire department. You get some of these tiny towns out west in the middle of nowhere, where you get 2 guys in traffic vests and hard hats because the community contracts its "fire service" out to a couple of yokels in a wagon from 1950 that barely runs.

Are most of our politicians/residents ignorant to the level of service their fire departments actually provide in comparison to what they're paying for it? Absolutely. But I'll bet the same happens for the police, DPW, and education services as well.

All that being said, you're absolutely right. Its not a career/volunteer issue if you have a 100% union career department that only has 5 guys split between an Engine, Truck and Ambulance? Guess what, you can't handle a fire without mutual aid. If you have a volunteer department with 3 stations, 4 engines, 2 rescues, 2 ladder trucks, and 9 Chief cars, but you can only get 6 guys for a fire at noon on a Tuesday, 5 of which are old enough to collect social security? Same deal.

I'm not sure if its reasonable for a town of 10,000 people to pay for enough staffing for a full NFPA-compliant response of 12-14 Firefighters for a residential structure fire. (Source) All the more reason to consolidate to one combination department. Less equipment, standardized training and SOPs, and you ensure that everyone in the area gets the same level of service for their dollar.

[FFPCogs 863]

Do we owe the public the truth about their fire depts. ability to handle a structure fire?

Yes we do, but more so we owe it to ourselves to be honest with ourselves. What I mean by this is that we are the greatest obstacle to solving the problem of inadequate responses and until we can admit that truth there is little hope of progressing. Like an alcoholic the first step in fixing the problem is admitting we have one and having the willingness to do what it takes to fix it. Most can readily admit to the first part, that there's a problem, but very few can honestly say they are truly willing to do what it takes to fix it. Oh sure, many will loudly jump on the consolidation bandwagon and proclaim that this is "the answer", until that answer involves them making concessions to serve the greater good. "We must consolidate, but my agenda is more important that yours", "we must consolidate, but don't change my contract", "we must consolidate, but don't touch my apparatus", "we must consolidate but don't take my rank" and so on and so on. Sadly, egos, agendas and a warped sense of self importance makes it virtually impossible to progress out of the tradition of putting ourselves first. And make no mistake we have always put ourselves first, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. The public will only get what they deserve when we put their needs above our wants....and that my friends is a tall order indeed.

Edited March 10, 2015 by FFPCogs

[antiquefirelt 994]

The reality is that most citizens and local politicians don't care what it says on the side of the fire apparatus at the fire scene as long as the fire is put out. Given the choice between properly funding the local FD to ensure they're capable of handling a first or second alarm fire on their own, or utilizing "free" mutual aid, they'll always choose the cheaper option. Unless a bunch of communities in a region are seeing growing expenses due to providing the mutual aid, chances of any one wanting to be more self-sufficient is unlikely.

The problem is the public doesn't know a good job from, mediocre or worse. If you arrive in any reasonable amount of time (longer for VFD's), don't look like the proverbial Monkey/Football, the fire goes out without getting worse after arrival, they'll be happy. In fact often they'll hail the FD for being hometown heroes, while having no clue they just got mediocrity. So trying to tell the public too spend more for a problem they fail to see or understand is a real uphill battle.

The fact is we're our own worst enemy far too often. We (as a whole) take what they give us (less and less), accept increasing risks to our personnel, and still get the job done to a level that is satisfactory to the masses. Until we start pointing out slower response times, equipment failures, lack of training or skill development and relate these to the loss of funds and personnel, the public will continue to push for lower taxes, as at the end of the day, unless they've experienced a fire, they have no real skin in the game. To the public we're one very expensive insurance policy, that appears to work when needed. Only when they use us themselves do they truly judge how well the money they've paid over the years was spent.

[LTNRFD 266]

Back in the 80's, NRFD was considered a, 2 fire, fire department. NRFD could handle 2 different room and content fires. Today NRFD can only handle 1 R&C fire before having to call for help. In NRFD case what has changed? 1 less man per engine? New rules on staffing? Lack of dedication? Harder fires to fight? Lack of understanding by management (city council ) as to the needs of a fire dept.? I think you asked a complex question and there is no easy answer.

As I said NRFD was a 2 fire fire dept. It has always been one of the best around, but today if there is a room and content fire in the north end what can I expect if I have a fire at my house 10 minutes later? A 1 & 1 response when the first fire gets a 4 & 2 response. Like I said there is no easy answer.

[FireMedic049 597]

The problem is the public doesn't know a good job from, mediocre or worse. If you arrive in any reasonable amount of time (longer for VFD's), don't look like the proverbial Monkey/Football, the fire goes out without getting worse after arrival, they'll be happy. In fact often they'll hail the FD for being hometown heroes, while having no clue they just got mediocrity. So trying to tell the public too spend more for a problem they fail to see or understand is a real uphill battle.

I've made this same point several times discussing this in my area. The public is often conditioned to think that when there's a fire in their community, the house will be a loss and anything short of burning the entire block is a "good job" and will praise their FD for their efforts. The public also doesn't always recognize the football fornicating monkey show when they see it.

To some extent, this holds true for some of the departments involved. The amount of back slapping I see on social media these days on the heals of a fire in many of these communities is crazy. Everyone always did "a good job" and everyone going home safe is often used as the yard stick to measure the effort. They may have given 100% and done the best that they could, but that doesn't always mean that they actually did "a good job", did it in a reasonably safe fashion or that their efforts made the situation better.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The amount of back slapping I see on social media these days on the heals of a fire in many of these communities is crazy. Everyone always did "a good job" and everyone going home safe is often used as the yard stick to measure the effort. They may have given 100% and done the best that they could, but that doesn't always mean that they actually did "a good job", did it in a reasonably safe fashion or that their efforts made the situation better.

You sir, have nailed it. Everyone going home is not the only metric for success on the fireground. Unfortunately we've conditioned too many Chiefs/Officers to believe this is the case.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Everyone going home is not the only metric for success on the fireground. Unfortunately we've conditioned too many Chiefs/Officers to believe this is the case.

Sadly, everyone going home shouldn't even be considered success, it's merely the absolute minimum. It's easier to ensure everyone can go home if we don't even respond! That being said, I've seen plenty of fires that I'm surprised everyone went home from safely and of course in those places it just proves their MO is adequate. As we say,"They don't even suspect nothing".

[firecapt32 282]

Great topic Chief==I think that most Fire Departments should take a real close look at them selves in a mirror and see what they see. Are they stuck in the 70's or 60's or worse yet 50's. We see time after time departments buying bigger--bigger--biggest--bester things. We all realize that especially in the volunteer service there is a erosion of manpower. In the career side its do more with less-- basically it's the same thing. How do we get everyone into the 21st century is the question.. better recruitment? incentives? training? community involvement?? getting home to our loved ones is a priority --- as I say in my classes---you didn't start the fire--- you joined to help your community. you cant do that if your not trained properly. 5 points I strive for -- get there--get there safely--do your job--do your job the best you can--get home to your loved ones.

I guess the answer might be in full disclosure. I once knew a Fire Chief that every meeting he went to stated that he did not have sufficient manpower.

So Chief there is not easy answer to your question just more questions

[x635 4,066]

Excellent topic, and excellent replies!

[TimesUp 148]

Couple of roll overs and a gas leak and guys want to pat themselves on the back. Everybody made home safe?

[FirNaTine 370]

Maybe guys should stop offering to play in each others sandbox and we can put an end to this bullshit! M/A was to cover empty Stations in a neighboring Community not to supplement an adjacent Town FD for a Bread and Butter Fire! Then again if an FD's Membership doesn't come back to backfill Spare Apparatus to release M/A Depts. covering their Stations you have an whole new ball of wax! Now what do you do?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Great article on the subject by Firefighter Close Calls.

Firefighters First Due... With So Few

[kinkchaser 352]

Sad to read that LTNRFD feels New Rochelle Firefighters have lost their dedication, certainly something I have not found true

[dwcfireman 656]

I'm gonna leave this little gem, something that was said to me by one of my mentors long ago....

"You can do a great deal of help with just an engine, but the lines don't stretch themselves."

We need to be dedicated, on the rig, and always vigilant.

[Dinosaur 844]

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2015/03/goldfeder-first-due.html

A good example of the staffing problem.