Engineered I beams after a basement fire in Maryland

[BFD389RET 112]

given The vast discussion of Last weeks; condos in edgewater of Lightweight Construction a buddy of mine who's living in southern Pa. had this Post arrive from an Incident in Bryans Road Maryland which is a bedroom community along the Potomic River.....

(The 1st Photo shows extensive Basement Damage to a residential fire In which the "Engineered strandboard I beams" burned 87% away and are sagging in the photo,)

"This is a photo from the basement of the House Fire today. Notice the burnt out I-beams. These are the engineered beams that are common in construction over the last few years. The floor in the living area above had sagged about a foot and was on the verge of collapse when noticed by interior Officers and crews. Fortunately no one was injured and the area was cordoned off. Just another reminder of what can and will kill us. Thanks to Mark Kaufmann for sharing the photo."

below (2nd Picture) shows The general configuration of these OSB I beams in another larger structure, Obviously These are being supported By 2x 6 headers and studs for a larger structure...obviously larger then a single fam dwelling

Edited February 8, 2015 by BFD389RET

[SteveC7010 58]

From the picture, it looks like the 2x stock portion of the wood I beams didn't even char very much. I can't tell from the black and white pic if the OSB portion is burned away or disintegrated from being soaked in water. Either way, the hazard is obvious and severe.

[BFD389RET 112]

when YOU look at the underside of the floor sheathing The fact that the UPPER thread (2x4) is GONE and Look the further right the More (OSB) strand board material is remaining... Obvioulsy I am looking at the same photo as will everyone.. this fire Burned through the strand materialand the Upper 2x either fully burned or fell to the floor level Point is this is "about 2 seconds" from collapsing and killing firefighters and or residents.... the Lower picture is of similar OSB i beams before the upper level platform has been place (not the walls are 2x6 on that larger most likely a condo complex or commercial building , BUT the I BEAMS are the concern here....

its suggested 6 minutes burn time] and I don't "KNOW" but I suspect the lower 2x4 may have been protected By wallboard but again I don't know this..... OSB or strandboard was designed to be Wall sheathing just as "particle board" was designed to be an Underlayment, its amazing how the industry has Pushed and pushed and pushed

Oddly enough right after this all popped up I also had a post pop up unrelated out of Massachusetts and these are shown as a Pitched roof beam (kinda cool )

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/02/04/i-team-lightweight-beams-may-contribute-to-devastating-house-

fires/

I STAIRS strandboard held together in "waterbed clips" and corner bead? lol

http://www.greenmaltese.com/2013/01/24/the-i-stair-a-new-building-construction-hazard/

After The Edgewater Condos incident Chief Salka had a Timely highlight in Firehouse Magazine about Lightweight Truss construction as well....

http://www.firehouse.com/blog/12041510/lightweight-construction-is-unsafe-for-firefighters-residents

Edited February 8, 2015 by BFD389RET

[BFD389RET 112]

From the picture, it looks like the 2x stock portion of the wood I beams didn't even char very much. I can't tell from the black and white pic if the OSB portion is burned away or disintegrated from being soaked in water. Either way, the hazard is obvious and severe.

I hear you Steve and Having many years of working in Building materials wholesale and retail as employment and side work I agree strandboard is strong and Rigid and also affected by heat and cold and water and chemicals and when That happens looses very quickly its Integrety.... I recall telling another employee NOT to stack 4 units under an exterior Pole shed, he did and 7 months later Guess who got stuck trying to removed said Units of Strand board the top most unit had expanded up between the 2x8 roof rafters of the pole shed even with Steel bands securing the unit together... the moisture is sucked up like a sponge.... I did get the units out without breaking anything but it was a pain in the... its crap and used more and more IN places it was NEVER intended to be used....

and here is the "I stair" configured death trap

http://www.greenmaltese.com/2013/01/24/the-i-stair-a-new-building-construction-hazard/

Edited February 8, 2015 by BFD389RET

[dwcfireman 656]

and here is the "I stair" configured death trap

http://www.greenmaltese.com/2013/01/24/the-i-stair-a-new-building-construction-hazard/

HOLY $H!T!!! I did not realize that stairs were being built "lightweight" as well. Thanks for this heads up....I would have never known.

It's a shame that construction and the respective building codes allow this kind of construction at all. I understand that it's been proven safe [when it's not on fire or damaged by water or nature], but at what point is someone going to stand up and say enough is enough? Is it 5 FF-LODDs? 10? 1,000? And why can't the almighty insurance lobby step in and say, "Hold on, these homes burn to the ground and cost us millions extra in payouts. Stop this."? Oh, wait...I forgot it's about the bottom line. Apparently it's worth it to someone.

[Bnechis 3,961]

HOLY $H!T!!! I did not realize that stairs were being built "lightweight" as well. Thanks for this heads up....I would have never known.

It's a shame that construction and the respective building codes allow this kind of construction at all. I understand that it's been proven safe [when it's not on fire or damaged by water or nature], but at what point is someone going to stand up and say enough is enough? Is it 5 FF-LODDs? 10? 1,000? And why can't the almighty insurance lobby step in and say, "Hold on, these homes burn to the ground and cost us millions extra in payouts. Stop this."? Oh, wait...I forgot it's about the bottom line. Apparently it's worth it to someone.

How about the fire service lobbying against it?

[Stench60 29]

Re: Lightweight Stair Construction

BFD, thanks for a great link. I've heard that these were in the works but this is my first time seeing them. I think Barry hit the nail on the head, it's time we all started to speak with a loud voice on this issue from all facets of the fire service. With the Edgewater fire so fresh on everyone's mind, and I hate to say it but "never let a tragedy go to waste", including todays Journal News Article; we need to strike while the iron is hot. This is an issue that has been on our radar for a long time, I remember sitting through a talk by a Yonkers Deputy Chief twenty nine years ago, given in Port Chester, about the dangers of lightweight construction and how we now had right there in Port Chester. The issue has only gotten worse since then and has been stated here will eventually produce fatalities both civilian and responder.

Reach out to your local representatives and explain the issue, bring supporting documentation and clearly and concisely explain it, that's what needs to be done and done now not later.

Also, there was a reason I said responders, not firefighters. Most fires see the police arrive first and make an initial effort to perform either rescue or evacuation. They are just as likely to be harmed by this as we, firefighters, are to be harmed. They should receive at least some type of awareness training in lightweight/truss construction.

[SteveC7010 58]

I hear you Steve and Having many years of working in Building materials wholesale and retail as employment and side work I agree strandboard is strong and Rigid and also affected by heat and cold and water and chemicals and when That happens looses very quickly its Integrety.... I recall telling another employee NOT to stack 4 units under an exterior Pole shed, he did and 7 months later Guess who got stuck trying to removed said Units of Strand board the top most unit had expanded up between the 2x8 roof rafters of the pole shed even with Steel bands securing the unit together... the moisture is sucked up like a sponge.... I did get the units out without breaking anything but it was a pain in the... its crap and used more and more IN places it was NEVER intended to be used....

Nearly 30 years ago, I built a log home. I specified full 3/4" plywood for the main subfloor with 2x12's for floor joists. Being a log home, we used double thickness 2x12's for the rim to support the extra weight of the exterior log walls. I also spec'd the joists to be 18" on center instead of the usual 24" that most builders will do unless told otherwise. That also contributed to more load bearing capacity on the rim.

I did consider the OSB "I" beams as they were just gaining acceptance in the manufactured housing industry at the time but rejected them as being too susceptible to water damage and possibly fire damage.

Guess I made a good call.

[BFD389RET 112]

HOLY $H!T!!! I did not realize that stairs were being built "lightweight" as well. Thanks for this heads up....I would have never known.

It's a shame that construction and the respective building codes allow this kind of construction at all. I understand that it's been proven safe [when it's not on fire or damaged by water or nature], but at what point is someone going to stand up and say enough is enough? Is it 5 FF-LODDs? 10? 1,000? And why can't the almighty insurance lobby step in and say, "Hold on, these homes burn to the ground and cost us millions extra in payouts. Stop this."? Oh, wait...I forgot it's about the bottom line. Apparently it's worth it to someone.

YES DWCfireman pretty scary stuff.... each step makes for more and more dangerous conditions for Us..

these sum things up

http://firetrainingtoolbox.com/gonogo.pdf

and this video will Maybe give you a means ..and maybe some Insight

http://youtu.be/c7m8TViEUOk

Edited February 9, 2015 by BFD389RET

[SOUSGT 357]

This is nothing new.

Volunteer Fire Fighter Dies After Falling Through Floor Supported by Engineered Wooden-I Beams at Residential Structure Fire – Tennessee

On January 26, 2007, a 24-year-old male volunteer fire fighter died at a residential structure fire after falling through the floor which was supported by engineered wooden I-beams. The victim’s crew had advanced a handline approximately 20 feet into the structure with zero visibility. They requested ventilation and a thermal imaging camera (TIC) in an attempt to locate and extinguish the fire. The victim exited the structure to retrieve the TIC, and when he returned the floor was spongy as conditions worsened which forced the crew to exit. The victim requested the nozzle and proceeded back into the structure within an arm’s distance of one of his crew members who provided back up while he stood in the doorway. Without warning, the floor collapsed sending the victim into the basement. Crews attempted to rescue the victim from the fully involved basement, but a subsequent collapse of the main floor ceased any rescue attempts. The victim was recovered later that morning. NIOSH investigators concluded that, to minimize the risk of similar occurrences, fire departments should:

• use a thermal imaging camera (TIC) during the initial size-up and search phases of a fire
• ensure fire fighters are trained to recognize the danger of operating above a fire and identify buildings constructed with trusses or engineered wood I-beams

Additionally, Municipalities and local authorities having jurisdiction should

• develop a questionnaire or checklist to obtain building information so that the information is readily available if an incident is reported at the noted address

Additionally, Building code officials and local authorities having jurisdiction should

• consider modifying the current codes to require that lightweight trusses are protected with a fire barrier on both the top and bottom

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200707.html

With the age of computers and tablets coming into the fire service, there is no reason why the responding units should not be aware of the use of lightweight construction at a particular site. I believe it should be the duty of the building department to notify the fire department when a permit is issued using this material or trussed roofs so that it can be entered in a “special hazard” section of a response location. This would be flagged when the alarm is transmitted.

[dwcfireman 656]

How about the fire service lobbying against it?

Wasn't this tried a few times in the past?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Wasn't this tried a few times in the past?

Not really.

Its been asked, but rarely has the fire service got up and real made a stink. How hard did we lobby for it? Did we complain as loudly as when the state threatened to take away the blue light?

[dwcfireman 656]

Not really.

Its been asked, but rarely has the fire service got up and real made a stink. How hard did we lobby for it? Did we complain as loudly as when the state threatened to take away the blue light?

Funny that we get worked up over the trivial things about the fire service, but we don't get as agitated about the important stuff.

Anyway, what other parts of buildings are becoming "lightweight?" Is there any one around here that works construction and is seeing cheaper cost-effective construction?

[Stepjam 118]

The Sullivan family right in Putnam county a couple of years ago. They didn't have a chance.

My own home, built in 1988, is probably LWC through out, judging by the 2x4 truss assemblies in my attic.After that disaster at the Avalon, I think pressure has to be applied to changing the building codes, and maybe eliminating the "cost-effectiveness" of future construction by having insurers charge a hefty premium for underwriting structures that are built this way.

[antiquefirelt 994]

For about 6 years our ordinances have required residential sprinklers in all new one and two family dwellings (in line with the IRC, IBC and NFPA 101). About four years ago the City Council sought to have some exceptions making it easier to build in the area covered by the municipal water system. Since then, we added an exception that requires some caveats. One of these is that no lightweight building material are used as primary structural components. The one we've gotten some push back on, directly from the industry, was not allowing engineered beams like Glu-lams, Micro-lams, etc. They seem to understand the dangers of wooden I Beams, but still argue the glue in the full dimensional engineer beams is "safe". We ask for proof, they never have any, so it currently stands as is, but the reps from one of the large manufacturers keeps calling us every few months to argue this point. Nonetheless, until we seem proof their glue and particle board stands up to heat while under a load, I'm convinced these should be protected by sprinklers. We do allow them as small window and door headers where the floor load is not depending on them.

[BFD389RET 112]

Hmm Interesting that YOUR fine with these as LONG as they are Sprinklered, specially since the Edgewater fire seems that Maintenance seems to have been Thawing a pipe ...to begin with.. spinkler Pipe or Not.. Either way They were useless in this case no? lol

I am not here To argue , I am retired so Its No a big deal To me ...But a brother Posted The Photo below along with the Name of the Company ("Wolf Systems, UK") who began the Interior Strandboard Stairwells and is now Looking to do These Super/Ultra Lightweight Trusses.......

"FETC Services on Facebook suggests Taking a Look at these ultra lights Euro approved

Check out these new ULTRA LIGHTWEIGHT ENGINEERED beams. Coming soon to a floor, a ceiling, or roof rafter near you!! I think we all understand that lightweightconstruction burns faster and lightweight structures fall down quicker... less mass simply jeopardizes firefighter safety under fire! So keep your eyes open for new construction in your area and monitor what contractors are using!

These are from Wolf Systems, UK . You also find pictures of the lightweight stairs, that we previously posted on their website. FETC Services."

company website

https://www.wolfsystem.co.uk/products/easi-joist.aspx

Edited March 2, 2015 by BFD389RET

[antiquefirelt 994]

Hmm Interesting that YOUR fine with these as LONG as they are Sprinklered, specially since the Edgewater fire seems that Maintenance seems to have been Thawing a pipe ...to begin with.. spinkler Pipe or Not.. Either way They were useless in this case no? lol

I think it being realistic to say that that engineered wood products will not ever leave the market, so if we cannot eliminate these hazards, we must protect them from fire as best we can. One, two or twenty fires doesn't prove or disprove the efficacy of sprinklers or any other product. In he case of residential in the ordinance I noted above, to be sprinklered means they'll almost always have the added protection of the sheetrock or other interior finish as Pex tubing sprinkler pipe rarely left exposed.

Sprinklers useless? Really? Huh, I guess this one fire erased the previous decades stats that prove otherwise quite conclusively. BTW-anyone die at the Edgewater Fire? You do understand that residential sprinkler systems are designed for Life Safety not property protection, right?

[Bnechis 3,961]

below (2nd Picture) shows The general configuration of these OSB I beams in another larger structure, Obviously These are being supported By 2x 6 headers and studs for a larger structure...obviously larger then a single fam dwelling

To meet the current energy code you need 2x6 Studs for single family if you are using fiberglass insulation.

[BFD389RET 112]

I think it being realistic to say that that engineered wood products will not ever leave the market, so if we cannot eliminate these hazards, we must protect them from fire as best we can. One, two or twenty fires doesn't prove or disprove the efficacy of sprinklers or any other product. In he case of residential in the ordinance I noted above, to be sprinklered means they'll almost always have the added protection of the sheetrock or other interior finish as Pex tubing sprinkler pipe rarely left exposed.

Sprinklers useless? Really? Huh, I guess this one fire erased the previous decades stats that prove otherwise quite conclusively. BTW-anyone die at the Edgewater Fire? You do understand that residential sprinkler systems are designed for Life Safety not property protection, right?

Edgewater as it happened was being thawed during daytime hours As I understand it.... so it was simple to ban people from returning home.. if it had broken out at 4 am I bet it would have been a differant story.... beyond That I didnt post any of the s*** to get in an argument about how WONDERFUL residental sprinklers.... Because ONCE they are

disabled for ANY of 200 reasons They are USELESS... and THAT does NOTHING to protect LIFE SAFETY from INFERIOR Bullshit LIKE the construction we Actually are talking about here

And YOU sound Like You own the Rights to residential Sprinkler systems or Maybe Your related This this engineer is he your KID?

http://www.callthecops.net/engineer-says-firefighters-are-stupid-to-fear-lightweight-engineered-beams/

ITS FIREPROOF !!!!!! HAHAHA this spoof even says so

Edited March 11, 2015 by BFD389RET

[antiquefirelt 994]

And YOU sound Like You own the Rights to residential Sprinkler systems or Maybe Your related This this engineer is he your KID?

Wrong on both counts. I merely am saying that realistically we'll never eliminate this type of construction, so we must use what we have available to protect it from fire. No doubt a disable sprinkler system is useless, but the same can be said of any defensive system from smoke detectors to firearms. Regardless of the number of ways sprinklers can be rendered useless, they work in a majority of cases, I've yet to see any "system" that can't or doesn't fail at somepoint. But, maybe you see an angle I don't? I just don't see the construction industry losing these products in my lifetime.