Valhalla - Major Emergency Train vs. Car w/ MCI and Fire 2-3-15

[ex-commish 490]

my point the ego.s and power trips not that of the IC but at 60 controls discretion sending family and friends and to the dept they belong to.safety to FF.S and civilians comes first.

What proof do you have to support this statement?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Can we talk about the actual incident, and re-open the METU thread for those who want to continue that discussion?

[x635 4,066]

Can we talk about the actual incident, and re-open the METU thread for those who want to continue that discussion?

Topic split. New topic on METU's: http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/51496-metu-units/

[LineCapt 134]

my point the ego.s and power trips not that of the IC but at 60 controls discretion sending family and friends and to the dept they belong to.safety to FF.S and civilians comes first.

Stop harping on your "favoritism" claims already. No one agrees with you. Your post is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen. You have no idea what you are talking about and nothing to back it up. My guess is you just have an unrelated bone to pick and this is a perfect opportunity for you. Wrong situation to do that.

[mfc2257 464]

Bottom of Da Hill, on 03 Feb 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

why stand by fd units from ossining isnt that a little far away?maybe armonk or west harrison white plains ?

Bottom of Da Hill, on 04 Feb 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

or maybe just maybe the dispatcher is a member of said FD? thats what it is?you have fairview hartsdale sleepyhollow tarrytown just a few miles away.favoritism with few dispatchers i noticed.

Bottom of Da Hill, on 04 Feb 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

i know all about mutual aid very well and i agree with you to a point.but there is favoritism.

Bottom of Da Hill, on 04 Feb 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

the grand scheme should get what you need there sooner then later kinda like a fast team? thats my experience tells me its not a parade.get what you need ASAP.i dont think the dispatchers should have that kind of power to show favoritism to the dept they belong to.

Well all the departments you listed including Ossining are a 12-15 minute drive to Valhalla's station. It's not about speed and who is closest for relocations, it's how to balance all of the resources in the county. A relocation is not an emergency per se. It is better to skip over several departments so that wide gaps in coverage aren't created in the process. Hawthorne, Valhalla, North White Plains, Elmsford, Thornwood, and Briarcliff had units committed to this job during rush hour. Leaving TFD, SHFD, PHFD, WHFD, AFD, untouched meant that whichever company relocated to VFD would have had a full complement of second due departments nearby available to respond to another major incident.

You're hung up on Ossining but the fact of the matter is that they've got a half dozen engines two trucks rescue and support equipment plus a lot of manpower. I'd like you to name a major job North of White Plains from the past 20 years that they haven't been on or relocated for. An 3 man engine or 1 man truck from Hartsdale on a relocate... That's just silly. If I was Greenville, Hartsdale, or Fairview I'd decline the request for a relocate knowing that if have to call back manpower to cover my first due.

The box was filled appropriately and just because a few Ossining members work for or have previously worked for 60 control does not indicate favoritism. If it's big and in northern Westchester you can be sure Ossining, Bedford Hills, and/or Yorktown are going to be part of the job.

[huzzie59 75]

So, about this woman driving forward on to the tracks. The guy behind backed up to give her space. Let's for one minute believe she intended on backing up.

I believe the Mercedes has a shift lever that, I think, when you push up goes one way and push down goes the other way. Not a normal shift lever.

What if she pushed it in the wrong direction?

[mlcougar2001 8]

i know all about mutual aid very well and i agree with you to a point.but there is favoritism.

I think your comments are very ignorant and you being an IC yourself should keep to the facts on an incident and if you have any questions or concerns voice them in a professional manor. Monday morning quarterbacks are great. You should be ashamed of yourself, if you think you can come and do our job take the test and get on the list.

[onetrucktotheboxK 4]

Well all the departments you listed including Ossining are a 12-15 minute drive to Valhalla's station. It's not about speed and who is closest for relocations, it's how to balance all of the resources in the county. A relocation is not an emergency per se. It is better to skip over several departments so that wide gaps in coverage aren't created in the process. Hawthorne, Valhalla, North White Plains, Elmsford, Thornwood, and Briarcliff had units committed to this job during rush hour. Leaving TFD, SHFD, PHFD, WHFD, AFD, untouched meant that whichever company relocated to VFD would have had a full complement of second due departments nearby available to respond to another major incident.

West Harrison (3.5 Miles) , and Armonk (6.2 Miles) and White Plains (3.5 Miles) Ossining (10.4 Miles) Tarrytown (5.3 Miles) Sleepy Hollow (6.1 Miles) Purchase (5.4 Miles) Port Chester (9.9 miles)

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

I think your comments are very ignorant and you being an IC yourself should keep to the facts on an incident and if you have any questions or concerns voice them in a professional manor. Monday morning quarterbacks are great. You should be ashamed of yourself, if you think you can come and do our job take the test and get on the list.

not saying any thing abt being on the job.but what makes you think i am not?

Well all the departments you listed including Ossining are a 12-15 minute drive to Valhalla's station. It's not about speed and who is closest for relocations, it's how to balance all of the resources in the county. A relocation is not an emergency per se. It is better to skip over several departments so that wide gaps in coverage aren't created in the process. Hawthorne, Valhalla, North White Plains, Elmsford, Thornwood, and Briarcliff had units committed to this job during rush hour. Leaving TFD, SHFD, PHFD, WHFD, AFD, untouched meant that whichever company relocated to VFD would have had a full complement of second due departments nearby available to respond to another major incident.

West Harrison (3.5 Miles) , and Armonk (6.2 Miles) and White Plains (3.5 Miles) Ossining (10.4 Miles) Tarrytown (5.3 Miles) Sleepy Hollow (6.1 Miles) Purchase (5.4 Miles) Port Chester (9.9 miles)

there you go guys black and white.i believe port chester and tarrytown have the same complement of rigs 2 ladders 4 or 5 engines a rescue and all under 10.4 miles away so say what you want the truthe is the truthe.if your a dispatcher and you send your own dept witch is 10.4 miles away to relocate?

Bottom of Da Hill, on 03 Feb 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

why stand by fd units from ossining isnt that a little far away?maybe armonk or west harrison white plains ?

Bottom of Da Hill, on 04 Feb 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

or maybe just maybe the dispatcher is a member of said FD? thats what it is?you have fairview hartsdale sleepyhollow tarrytown just a few miles away.favoritism with few dispatchers i noticed.

Bottom of Da Hill, on 04 Feb 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

i know all about mutual aid very well and i agree with you to a point.but there is favoritism.

Bottom of Da Hill, on 04 Feb 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

the grand scheme should get what you need there sooner then later kinda like a fast team? thats my experience tells me its not a parade.get what you need ASAP.i dont think the dispatchers should have that kind of power to show favoritism to the dept they belong to.

Well all the departments you listed including Ossining are a 12-15 minute drive to Valhalla's station. It's not about speed and who is closest for relocations, it's how to balance all of the resources in the county. A relocation is not an emergency per se. It is better to skip over several departments so that wide gaps in coverage aren't created in the process. Hawthorne, Valhalla, North White Plains, Elmsford, Thornwood, and Briarcliff had units committed to this job during rush hour. Leaving TFD, SHFD, PHFD, WHFD, AFD, untouched meant that whichever company relocated to VFD would have had a full complement of second due departments nearby available to respond to another major incident.

You're hung up on Ossining but the fact of the matter is that they've got a half dozen engines two trucks rescue and support equipment plus a lot of manpower. I'd like you to name a major job North of White Plains from the past 20 years that they haven't been on or relocated for. An 3 man engine or 1 man truck from Hartsdale on a relocate... That's just silly. If I was Greenville, Hartsdale, or Fairview I'd decline the request for a relocate knowing that if have to call back manpower to cover my first due.

The box was filled appropriately and just because a few Ossining members work for or have previously worked for 60 control does not indicate favoritism. If it's big and in northern Westchester you can be sure Ossining, Bedford Hills, and/or Yorktown are going to be part of the job.

other depts also have a half of dozen engines and 2 trucks a rescue with suport equipment lots and lots of man power and tech training also.so why have a cad system? im not talking bad abt ossining at all but how bad the call was you would want sopport there ASAP.but i gues ossining is the answer to all in your mind. you ben in florida to long west has grown with training .but its ok that you dispatch your own dept to relocate 10.4 miles away?im glad my loved ones wernt on that train.greenville has a trained tech rescue team.you have no clue florida.

Stop harping on your "favoritism" claims already. No one agrees with you. Your post is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen. You have no idea what you are talking about and nothing to back it up. My guess is you just have an unrelated bone to pick and this is a perfect opportunity for you. Wrong situation to do that.

you may not agree with me and i dont care its my thoughts and i posted them you sound a little upset take a break.it is favoritism at best i hear alot of jobs getting dispatched in the county its out there just a matter of time when the bosses pick up on it.

What proof do you have to support this statement?

the radio and dispatch# thats all.

On a 10-75, which this was not West Harrison TL-9 would hae gone to Vahalla, we are there backup ladder.

well if your on there run card for back up then you should have ben dispatched to stand by at VFD.

[LineCapt 134]

Bottom of Da Hill give it a rest already! You are just making yourself look even more and more clueless. No one agrees with you here (how can you not see that?), no one with any education will agree with you here, and no one wants to read any more of your posts trying to hijack and ruin this thread with your personally biased, absurd claims of favoritism. I'm starting to suspect you're just upset your department wasn't called. Again, wrong incident, wrong thread, and wrong time to be making such stupid claims.

[Using_All_Hands 140]

"Bottom of Da Hill" - you keep accusing a dispatcher of just dispatching his department to an incident. Don't you think that he/she would have to answer to a Supervisor? How do you know someone didn't call on the phone and tell him/her who to send?

Do everyone a favor, STOP!!!! You are making your whole department look foolish,

[EMTbravo 312]

There is a member on this thread who is obviously intentionally trying to hijack threads and create conflict. He's made several inflammatory comments in other threads on other matters, and I just removed a post of his in the Somers Firehouse Fire Incident Alert thread trying to start the same argument he's trying to make here. He's been warned before about this behavior, but seemingly doesn't care. His behavior and assertions are offending numerous members of this forum, intentionally creating hostility, and taking threads off course. Therefore, his posts must be approved by a moderator prior to being seen by the general membership going forward. This isn't just one post were talking about, this is a pattern of behavior across different threads and it needs to stop. I don't care if people accuse me of censorship regarding this, something needs to be done since this type of repetitive behavior without regard for its consequences damages this forum and inhibits constructive and interesting discussion and dissemination of accurate information.

The dispatchers on duty at 60 Control did an excellent job during this overwhelming and unprecedented incident. Many people don't understand what it's like to work in a multi-jurisdictional multi-discipline communications center, and the complexities that come along with it on a normal day, let alone during something like this. This forum, and I, will not stand by them and not let a member purposely use this as a venue to try and tarnish and second guess such strong and solid work with such unfounded, unfair, and intentionally inflammatory claims.

I ask that this issue ends here, and constructive discussion regarding this incident resumes. If you have any concerns regarding this, please contact me.

[huzzie59 75]

So....................Back to the gear shift lever.

Channel 2 reported she recently bought the car.

after looking on line at Mercedes gear shift levers, I see that when you push up the car goes backwards. When you push down, the car goes forward.

It seems, to me, to be opposite of what you would do.

Maybe, and we'll never know, she pushed the lever down thinking she would go backwards?????

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I heard somewhere (sorry) that there was a motor vehicle accident on the Taconic/Bx River Pkwy near the train incident and that Valhalla FD was already on the scene?

It was said to have been a cause of a backup on the highway, leading people to use Commerce St. as a short cut.

Can anyone confirm (or plausibly deny) that for me?

Thanks

My original answer to this got caught in the thread split so it's not here.

Yes, there was a serious accident on the TSP that pushed a lot of traffic off the parkway and onto Commerce Street.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Looks like a good job by the IC in what (hopefully) will be a once in a lifetime incident.

I hope Critical incident stress debriefing was offered to the first responders and I would hope Metro North would offer something to the passengers as well. By what I have read some very horrific images were witnessed by first responders and civilians.

Chiefs and commissioners...when you swore in the 18, 19 year old gung ho members they put their trust in you. Physically and mentally. So did their parents who probably signed "consent" forms. You don't want them resigning over this, leaving your organization and being forever "broken" over what they witnessed.

Good job guys.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

The bottom line is that the IC has the authority to request any resources he wants from the next town or the next county if he or she wants to.

Bitching about it here is just that, bitching. It doesn't accomplish anything.

Now I will say that a standard response matrix would benefit the county greatly and is used in many other places successfully. Instead Westchester has individual department run cards and there is no consistency or commonality.

Look at the MCI in Chicago at the airport for the plane with pressurization problems the other day. A level 1 MCI was declared sending a standard package of resources.

What do we have here in Westchester? NOTHING!

Fiefdoms and egos preventing any kind of system development!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Instead Westchester has individual department run cards and there is no consistency or commonality.

Fiefdoms and egos preventing any kind of system development!

Yes but in many other places that also have the same standards from one place to another.

Standards for response,

Standards for equipment

Standards for personnel

Standards for training.

You will never see a "system" here until everyone agrees to follow similar rules.

[dc2t 80]

Enough of petty bickering

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Enough of petty bickering

Since when is discussing the lack of standards or a cohesive system "petty bickering"?

[onetrucktotheboxK 4]

I’m trying to learn more to be better prepared of the next MCI in Westchester.

Does 60 Control still have the prearrange run cards which I believe have spaces for your first 5 engines, ladders, tankers and rescues, and ect? Which the Chief the gives 60 Control on his wishes the Chief is the “AHJ”. If 60 Control did use the prearrange run card than there is no argument here. But if 60 Control did not follow the prearrange run cards then why? I believe that is a valid question to ask.

Making a decision on calling resources outside of the run cards is it made by the dispatch himself or dispatch supervisor at that time? I think a IC of a incident should know who make that call.

How offer does 60 Control make a department update the run cards? (Yearly)

Does 60 control share the run cards to different agencies so that they are aware that there resources can called to Fire Department XZY. Which can help a department be better prepared for an incident.

Thanks

Edited February 6, 2015 by onetrucktotheboxK

[mfc2257 464]

The best part of this whole discussion is that we're bantering about who got to go sit in someone else's fire house... Not who got to go to the job, but who got to go and sit.... Priceless really....

[61MACKBR1 222]

Yes but in many other places that also have the same standards from one place to another.

Standards for response,

Standards for equipment

Standards for personnel

Standards for training.

You will never see a "system" here until everyone agrees to follow similar rules.

Barry - You continue to "Tell It Like It Is" (Until people who have the "Power To Initiate Change" put laws in place within New York State to force "Standardization" in Response, Personnel, and especially "TRAINING !!!" (for both the Career and Volunteer Firefighters) we will never have a common ground to work off of throughout Westchester County

[nydude2473 79]

What is important to remember is that six people died that night and that can't ever be reversed sadly. But, the response to the scene and how things were conducted afterwards showed how well a major MCI can be handled. However, there is a certain level of truth to claims that there should be a review of how mutual aid and resources are called upon. I understand that people really appreciate having 60 Control be there dispatching source, but shouldn't the question be asked, where is there boundary? Also, what about being realistic about resources. I know people might still have issues with career and volunteers mixing but to be honest when you need resources sometimes you got to go with that option. Also, geography plays part in this matter. It isn't realistic calling departments from literally miles away to go to the scene or standby when you have resources closer by. This isn't about being picked first in dodgeball or getting to say "we were there". That's foolish to think like that. This is just being realistic. The IC did a good job that night and those who were on the ground did a great job too. This issue shouldn't take away from their efforts. There is nothing wrong with just reviewing for next time and hoping that an incident like this won't happen again.

[Newburgher 241]

What is important to remember is that six people died that night and that can't ever be reversed sadly. But, the response to the scene and how things were conducted afterwards showed how well a major MCI can be handled. However, there is a certain level of truth to claims that there should be a review of how mutual aid and resources are called upon. I understand that people really appreciate having 60 Control be there dispatching source, but shouldn't the question be asked, where is there boundary? Also, what about being realistic about resources. I know people might still have issues with career and volunteers mixing but to be honest when you need resources sometimes you got to go with that option. Also, geography plays part in this matter. It isn't realistic calling departments from literally miles away to go to the scene or standby when you have resources closer by. This isn't about being picked first in dodgeball or getting to say "we were there". That's foolish to think like that. This is just being realistic. The IC did a good job that night and those who were on the ground did a great job too. This issue shouldn't take away from their efforts. There is nothing wrong with just reviewing for next time and hoping that an incident like this won't happen again.

"Being realistic with resources" Is that people or equipment? And with the people, does certification, training and ability count in that? I wasn't there, but I often hear armchair Incident Commanders saying this department should have been there, instead of this one. Not this incident specifically, but any large scale incident. It seems, sometimes, departments have to be honest with what they are really sending for mutual aid. This is something I run into a lot. You might have a rig come pulling in with 5 guys, but only one can even wear an airpack, making it a one man crew. I've never worked with the fire departments listed on this incident, but could this be part of what went on?

[Bnechis 3,961]

What is important to remember is that six people died that night and that can't ever be reversed sadly. But, the response to the scene and how things were conducted afterwards showed how well a major MCI can be handled. However, there is a certain level of truth to claims that there should be a review of how mutual aid and resources are called upon. I understand that people really appreciate having 60 Control be there dispatching source, but shouldn't the question be asked, where is there boundary? Also, what about being realistic about resources. I know people might still have issues with career and volunteers mixing but to be honest when you need resources sometimes you got to go with that option. Also, geography plays part in this matter. It isn't realistic calling departments from literally miles away to go to the scene or standby when you have resources closer by. This isn't about being picked first in dodgeball or getting to say "we were there". That's foolish to think like that. This is just being realistic. The IC did a good job that night and those who were on the ground did a great job too. This issue shouldn't take away from their efforts. There is nothing wrong with just reviewing for next time and hoping that an incident like this won't happen again.

Much of what you wrote I agree with, but a few items....

1) "how well a major MCI can be handled." - Nothing against any of the responders because it sounds like they did a fine job, but there were about a dozen patients transported and that is not a "major" MCI. what if the train had derailed? what if it had tipped over? From an MCI stand point this was a very minor event that could have been catastrophic.

2) "where is there boundary?" (60 Control) - While I do not always agree with WHAT their boundaries are, the chiefs all know WHERE they are.

3) "It isn't realistic calling departments from literally miles away to go to the scene or standby when you have resources closer by." - Sometimes it is. Again stripping every resource in an area makes no sense, but also sometimes departments that are farther away can get there faster because, they get out quicker, or they can respond via highways vs back roads or because they are staffed.