Aparatus Placement at a Residental Fire

[bmfd231 3]

What apparatus should be closest to the scene of a residental fire.

Should only engines be in front so that they do not have to add to their 200' cross-lay attack lines or should they carry longer attack lines. What does your department carry?

Should the aerial or tower ladder be placed closest with engines nearby, where does your department place theirs.

Does your department have procedures permitting proper placement of both engine and ladder

[Guest]

As far as engines, I think maybe they should take what they need and then connect. Aerials should be in the best available position to reach the target. After all some times you may have to use 100ft of aerial to reach a 45 foot height due any number of possibilities, offset from the street, trees, wires and such. One unbreakable rule is leave enough room behind the truck to be able to remove and replace ground ladders.

[x242Steve 1]

I totally agree with engine235 (a.k.a. Shake-zula tha mike-rula)

I will never forget one of my basic FF classes- The instructor drew a diagram of a typical residential structure. Labeled all the exposures, showed the street, hydrants, some trees, even drew a puff of smoke coming from a window... He then asked us "what else will you find when you arrive first due at this scene". A classmate who happened to be an EMT knew exactly what he meant, took the dry-erase marker, and drew a police car right in front of the hydrant and another in front of the house.

And remember, engines can add a length of hose, but your aerial device can only reach to its maximum length! As can be heard on the radios when certain Ladder drivers are following an engine to a structure fire... "Leave room for the truck!"

[TRUCK6018 50]

The engine should either park just before or just after the fire building so that way the truck will have room to operate in front.

As been said, you can add hose, you can't add ladder.

[mfc2257 464]

To add....

Mid mount's (especially towers) should be positioned as often as possible, diagonally at the corners of buildings. This allows them to perform a rescue from two different sides of the structure.

Rear mount's should be backed into driveways/up to buildings as opposed to fronting in. 35-50% of a rear mount truck's aerial effectiveness is lost when it has to reach out over itself to get to the building. Some departments have SOP's that require a truck operator to back into all scenes unless it is physically impossible OR told to do otherwise by the OIC. In a world of drivethrough bays and rearward facing cameras however, more and more new drivers don't have the knack for threading the needle backwards anymore.

[x242Steve 1]

Excellent points! The area a bucket can reach is referred to as the "scrub zone", I believe...

If you look back to March 18, 2005- Rye had a working fire where the Truck (100' Rearmount) backed in to the house. The aerial wasn't needed, but it was good thinking by the driver, since the house was set back a bit and had a high roof.

Has anyone seen Verplanck's Bronto tower in action? That thing must have a versatile reach when placed at a corner.

[TBarnum 2]

Yes, police cars are often in the way of both the truck and the engine. Sometimes a stray Chief's car can impede the placement of apparatus also. [-X

[BFD1054 1,552]

I'm in no way a truckie, but know enough to add some comments lol. I too believe that the 1st due engine should pull past or stop short of the structure to leave ample room for the truck company. As stated, its not hard to add a few lengths of hose to a line, a pain in the a$$ maybe, but not impossible. Now, adding ladder heigth, that may be impossible lol! You also must take into consideration of wheather the truck will be able to operate, sometimes theres just too many obstacles.

242Steve...on Your Verplanck question. Yes, the Bronto (TL46) is very versatile! We did a drill with them one night & our guys went up in the bucket and they showed us what the rig is capable of. Its amazing what it can do. The cool thing is that the bucket, once extended, can "drop" 20' below grade which is real cool.

[Cutty630 37]

As an officer in the engine co responding to a structure fire, auto alarm or anything involving a building I have the driver of the engine usually pass the building and set up just beyond it. Just like other officers (hopefully) not only do I think of the placement of the rig that I'm in, but the rigs that will be coming in behind me. I have the driver leave plenty of room for the other responding apparatus. The reason that I have the driver of the first due engine pull past the building is SIZE UP of the structure. At least when the rig passes I can see the majority of the building and get a feel for what is going on, as well as what the building is like (ie. size,type,amount of building involved, egress ect....). Then when the ladder comes in they can position themselves acordingly. And if it's a long haul (beyond the 200' of attack line) we have about 400 to 50

0 feet of three in hose with a gate on the end of it to connect any apt pack onto.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Most of what I've read is solid basic tactics.

But remember it all depends, every fire is different and different construction types mean different tactics may be need in apparatus placement. I've had some great arguments over that simply saying the truck gets the front isn't always a hard and fast rule. Life safety is first, if you need to get people out of upper windows that ground ladders won't do, you need to get them out. Roof operations is second and the front won't always do it. You have to keep your mind open.

When it comes down to it, no truck really should be directly in front if you are in the collapse zone. You aim the turntable no matter where it is on the truck to give you the maximum scrub you can get with it and preferably 2 sids of the building. I prefer not be at total 90 angles because of with tower buckets doors being where they are its a bit safer and more ergonomic to be a bit off to the side.

And yes you can add hose, but 200' for most residential houses will do it with more then you actually want. Garden style apartments and with the way they set back many new homes you may take your first 100' on the front lawn. Keep in mind that friction loss with the addition of hose is a biggie. Its all about flow, no less then 150 gpm for structural firefighter, you add on more lengths of 1 3/4" and use fog nozzles you making your engine work harder then it has to.

[Guest]

The positioning at fire scenes is very important! In most cases at structure fires, the engine either goes past the fire or stops short of it, to leave room for the truck company. But there are instances where you are going to position the truck on the corners, rear of structure etc. I believe in my Dept. we have definitely made a big change in recent years in our truck company, now that we have nice, versatile piece of apparatus. We can actually set up for real truckie work. Just remember always protect the scene utilizing positioning of your apparatus!

[doug_e 0]

Time to weigh in here...

As a standard operating "GUIDELINE" the truck should position in front of the fire building. Period, end of story. Well almost...

That is what you need to be thinking about as you leave the firehouse for the alarm. Once on the scene the IC will reposition the ladder for effective operations as the conditions warrant.

If conditions warrant! This is the caveat that modifies everything.

But you must have an SOG designed to place the ladder in front of the building all the time. Doing it this way will give you good apparatus placement in 95% of the situations you'll confront on the fireground. The IC will compensate for another 4%. This will give you 99% good placement. As we know, nothing is perfect...

If you use a forward lay into the fire the first due engine should arrive at the scene behind the truck. Or if the engine arrives first it should hold up at the hydrant to allow the ladder to pass and get into position.

For a reverse lay the engine should arrive before the ladder to drop off the attack line(s) and then take the hydrant.

[Guest]

Be very carful when adding to the 1 3/4 line anything more than 250 as ALS said would create greater friction loss and cause your pump to work harder. Look at LODD in Cinci OH, I believe he was operating a 300' 1 3/4 handline and was run over by fire.

Fog nozzles and 150 GPM, do a flow tests with your nozzles and I'll bet you find that you are under pumping them. The atuomatics (if you use them) make a great looking stream but don't deliver the GPM you think you are delivering. That's what we found when we made the change to Smooth Bore! It is also recomended that fog nozzles be field and factory serviced yearly to keep every thing in working order (yeah, that's happening). Find out if u can deliver the GPM you want or switch to a nozzle that will.

So leave the engines out of the way and fly the wye with 2 1/2 and a finished load for set backs and larger buildings. Trucks belong in the front of the building and first due trucks leave room for the second due, they too have a position in front.

Just my two cents!

Stay safe,

G