Responding to cover

[Tanker 10eng 140]

why ??? in this case 4000 reasons... and from sympathomedic calculations, to save 5 maybe 6 minutes ??? really ?? logic is where ?

In my clueless opinion, is not worth it.. Sorry if you think differently then me, but every time I get behind the wheel of an apparatus, I am concerned for the safety of my crew behind me all the idiots, friends and family on these roads I am traveling... shouldn't every driver think like that? STOP kidding your self... public safety is job # 1 and going through a red light is not safe for the general public...

M'ave - this is not NYC, where traveling blocks can take a long time with the traffic, ( Might you I do not have allot of experience in driving down there, but have discussed it with many drivers )so if it what they want to do, so be it... they are FDNY ... and I have read back through this discussion and it seems split of the YES and NO's here... so are we really reading the same thing...

Look if you really feel RLS are needed for mutual aid, so be it, but god help you if your in an accident and someone is killed for a mutual aid stand by... the lawyers will have a field day with it.

From this incident, has the department kept or changed their policy on RLS for coverage calls ?

[M' Ave 1,466]

M'ave - this is not NYC, where traveling blocks can take a long time with the traffic, ( Might you I do not have allot of experience in driving down there, but have discussed it with many drivers )so if it what they want to do, so be it... they are FDNY ... and I have read back through this discussion and it seems split of the YES and NO's here... so are we really reading the same thing...

Look if you really feel RLS are needed for mutual aid, so be it, but god help you if your in an accident and someone is killed for a mutual aid stand by... the lawyers will have a field day with it.

I hear you, but you're missing the whole basis of my argument here. If mutual aide is done correctly and resources are spread efficiently, then you would be coming from a distance that requires the use of RLS to reach your new area of responsibility for the duration of the incident keeping the primary agency busy. Being in NYC has no significance in how you allocate resources and how you get them into an under served area. Once again, an area devoid of emergency services IS an emergency.

As for the lawyers....not worried, so long as I'm driving my Engine in a safe manner and operating with "due-regard" for the conditions around me. How am I protected? This:

Straight from "The Books", FDNY Safety Bulletin, Chapter 1, Section 2:

Sirens and warning lights may only be used when engaged in Emergency Operations , i.e.: responding to or operating at an alarm, or relocating to the quarters of another unit.

[robert benz 344]

why ??? in this case 4000 reasons... and from sympathomedic calculations, to save 5 maybe 6 minutes ??? really ?? logic is where ?

In my clueless opinion, is not worth it.. Sorry if you think differently then me, but every time I get behind the wheel of an apparatus, I am concerned for the safety of my crew behind me all the idiots, friends and family on these roads I am traveling... shouldn't every driver think like that? STOP kidding your self... public safety is job # 1 and going through a red light is not safe for the general public...

I am not here to change anybody's mind. My point has been it is a call, a response to something, somewhere. If you go RLS or not makes no difference to me, I was explaining that depending on the length of the response it might matter how quickly you get there. I personally have been redirected to the fire, responded to other calls including fires while en route,

You are making the point they got into an accident because they went thru a red light, which in your opinion "is not safe for the general public". So that must mean your SOPS state very clearly AT NO TIME SHALL ANY APPARATUS GO THROUGH A RED LIGHT.

3 am on the way back from a call not a car in sight never went through a red light to get back to quarters? or maybe you A) don't have any lights in your district, did it safely and didn't get into an accident. Drive as defensively as possible whenever you are behind the wheel, and sometimes the brown stuff just happens anyway.

Tanker 10eng Keep up the good work of getting the members to the scene and back as safely as possible.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Interesting topic, certainly many points and it appears to me the general geography of your area could dictate. That being said, we don't run RLS to cover assignments, then again, none of the stations we cover are staffed, and the longest run I've seen in 19+ at my career job was 20 miles on 55 MPH road with only one light outside our own territory.

For us the issue is not so much our own drivers being idiots (quality driver training+proactive disciplinary policies = predictable behaviors), but the civilian drivers whose reactions are unpredictable at best, can create the inevitable event. Every time you add lights and sirens you add risk above the normal persons commute for the same point A to point B trip. Herein lies the basic risk/benefit analysis. Will you arrive that much sooner to make a difference. How much time can be gained using RLS is dependent on your traffic situation. In our case, it's typically not more than 2-3 minutes (gain, not total trip). It takes a lot of MPH to overcome stopping at intersections (try outrunning your GPS's prediction based on the speed limits). But if you're stuck in traffic at a standstill, then it's likely a much different story.

The one thing I know is that if had an apparatus involved in an accident, I'd much rather have had the RLS on for a "true emergency" than responding in case of a potential future emergency. I've heard numerous speakers say if you are running RLS, you'll be guilty until proven innocent.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) OK, so bringing it back full circle: Using NR as an example, EMS resources are NOT moved into the city RLS or otherwise even when all city EMS is unavailable UNLESS it is predicted to be hours before a city unit will be free. This is despite a constant and predictable steady drumbeat of 911 demands for EMS calls, about 3% of which are truly life and death.

2) In the Greenville scenario that started the thread (remember back then?) a fire unit had to travel all of 10.2 miles (21 mins per Mr. Google) to cover two (Pelham and the Manor) agencies that COMBINED respond to 2 fire calls per day and maybe 2-3 actual fires per year. The crew used lights and sirens and become involved in a crash that caused $4000 in damage to their truck. (pure guestimate that RLS cut 25% off the response time= 5 minute 15 second time savings)

3) May I assume that the response was terminated by the crash?

4)And that no alarm came was received by PFD/PMFD while ANOTHER mutual aid company was found to replace disabled the GFD rig?

5) And, really kidding here, did anyone respond RLS INTO Greenvile to cover until they got their rig fixed?

1) Until EMS changes its entire funding methodology this will be an issue. Since there is no legal requirement to provide EMS in NYS, most municipalities underfund EMS and rely on 3rd party billing, which was never designed to cover the cost of emergency EMS services. So Every community is struggling and does not have the total resources needed to cover the response time criteria that the public demands.

If only 3% are life and death why are the standards BLS in 4 minutes and ALS in 8 minutes 90% of the time?

2) Fire service has not been designed around call volume (like EMS is) Its best on insurance loss tables that have been in use for 110 years. The costs of fire protection are a component of insurance and if their are calls or are no calls, the $$$ value to insurance companies remain the same. The insurance standard is apparatus can cover up to 5 miles Max, beyond that all properties are rated no FD protection. It does not matter that statistically their are no calls. Of much greater importance was their is a active fire in a structure in Pelham, part of the reason for moving rigs up is if anything changes at the fire scene we may need additional units immediately, as you said its 15 - 20 minutes away. If fire conditions change its too late, particularly if FF's or civilians are in danger. In other parts of the country, they stag these additional units a block or 2 from the scene (maybe not a bad idea).

Wow, it must have been a horrible crash to cause $4,000 in damage to a $800,000 truck (0.5%)...what did it do, scrape the paint, break a light?

And before people scream it crashed? who hit who? Is it possible that the teen was not paying attention and drove into the back or side of a 45 foot long, 12 foot high Red wall with flashing lights?

3) I do not know, but you should never ASSume

4) Based on this, we should never send EMS to a fire or a police barricade until someone is injured, because they are not needed at time of dispatch

5) Don't know, but they and many other departments have auto aid agreements to cover when rigs are out of service (GFD has both YFD & HFD). Also many depts. get loaner rigs from other depts. or rentals from dealers. NRFD had an FDNY loaner for a long time after losing a rig.

[Bnechis 3,961]

My last 24 hour tour we did 8 runs which included 2 back to back reported structure fires.

Please do not inject facts into this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is there any standard or law that would dictate wether or not you should use RLS on a mutual aid cover?

The law says an "emergency" now since their is no agreed definition of "emergency"... and 60 Control dispatched units (not when its not an emergency they usually call the chief)

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) why ??? in this case 4000 reasons... and from sympathomedic calculations, to save 5 maybe 6 minutes ??? really ?? logic is where ?

2) STOP kidding your self... public safety is job # 1 and going through a red light is not safe for the general public...

3) M'ave - this is not NYC, where traveling blocks can take a long time with the traffic, ( Might you I do not have allot of experience in driving down there, but have discussed it with many drivers )so if it what they want to do, so be it... they are FDNY ... and I have read back through this discussion and it seems split of the YES and NO's here... so are we really reading the same thing...

4) Look if you really feel RLS are needed for mutual aid, so be it, but god help you if your in an accident and someone is killed for a mutual aid stand by... the lawyers will have a field day with it.

5) From this incident, has the department kept or changed their policy on RLS for coverage calls ?

1) All depends on if another call comes in or more units are needed to the scene. 5 minutes could be a long time, if you are in trouble, or it may make not difference at all. Do you respond RLS to automatic fire alarms? It only saves 2 or 3 minutes, but we know that 99% result in no fire. Each year we go on 3,000 automatic alarms and 30 mutual aid calls, every mutual aid call their is an actual fire, even if we have not been moved up to it yet, but 2,998 of those AA will have no fire.

2) if its not safe then we should never ever go thru a red light, and we should take the Q2 off every rig.....

3) You are correct its not NYC, but have you seen what the traffic issues are on Main St in NR, or 4th St in MT Vernon, Yonkers Ave, or 5th Ave in Pelham or Hartsdale Ave. or Ardsley Road (where the accident was) in Greenburgh? I have waited 10-15 minutes to get down the Ardsley road hill to the BRP, just because of traffic. I worked EMS in NYC and the traffic in Southern Westchester can be just as bad or worst, because of narrower roads.

4) If you get into an accident, the facts of how you are operating RLS will be a bigger consideration for the lawyers. 3 years ago I went Mutual Aid to Yonkers (standby with Eng & Lad + me at Sta. #1) I went no RLS (do not know what the rigs did) and before I got to the house (but was in the city), was redirected to a report of a structure fire with children trapped on the 3rd floor. I was going RLS, and was involved in an MVA at an intersection. My dept vehicle had minor damage ($1,200), but the other vehicle (brand new Cadillac) along with 2 other cars were totaled and 2 other cars and some fences were damaged. The other driver sued & all the lawyers jumped on the band wagon, because RLS...its a slam dunk right?

Our lawyers had never seen our vehicle tracking logs that showed I came to a complete stop before proceeding into the intersection. At the time of the impact I was travelling under 5mph (documented). The damage to the other vehicle was a small dent in a door (estimated $1000 or less). The other driver panicked after the crash and stood on the accelerator for the next 2 blocks, bouncing of 4 cars, 2 iron fences and a guard rail. All the lawyers dropped it. Why? they determined I was properly operating an emergency vehicle and the other driver failed to yield, then failed to control his vehicle. If he had stepped on the break it would have been the end of it. Just because you are going RLS does not mean you will be wrong. Know, no one was hurt, but you are making legal assumptions, that may or may not be reality. We did not pay for any other damage than my car and the other drivers insurance paid for the damages he caused to everyone else.

In this case do you know the facts? Did Ladder 4 hit the car, or did the car hit ladder 4? Did L4 stop and proceed through the intersection, or did they barrel through?

5) No changes.

[JAD622 40]

Please do not inject facts into this.

Sorry, I don't know what came over me......

[sympathomedic 383]

The 3% stat comes from the Emergency Care Information Center in Escondido CA. I think it actually was 2.7%. As to the 8 minute thing, we both know about the flawed logic that comes from: Brain damage occurs in cardiac arrest in 8 minutes. Therefore EACH AND EVERY CALL MUST be considered an arrest. I once found a like to about 50 quotes from fire serice leaders each giving a different time for the "A fire doubles in size every (fill in the blank)". So were does the FD get the 4 minute standard from?

We should probably not send EMS with RLS to fires or barricades where there is no report of any need for them.

To paraphrase, we send fire units RLS to where there is no emergency for them to handle because there is a law requiring municipalities to provide fire protection.

We don't do that with medical resources because we can't afford it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) The 3% stat comes from the Emergency Care Information Center in Escondido CA. I think it actually was 2.7%.

2) As to the 8 minute thing, we both know about the flawed logic that comes from: Brain damage occurs in cardiac arrest in 8 minutes. Therefore EACH AND EVERY CALL MUST be considered an arrest.

3) I once found a like to about 50 quotes from fire serice leaders each giving a different time for the "A fire doubles in size every (fill in the blank)". So were does the FD get the 4 minute standard from?

4) We should probably not send EMS with RLS to fires or barricades where there is no report of any need for them.

5) To paraphrase, we send fire units RLS to where there is no emergency for them to handle because there is a law requiring municipalities to provide fire protection.

6) We don't do that with medical resources because we can't afford it.

1) so 97.3% of EMS calls do not need RLS....Wow, maybe you should not let the lawyers hear that.

2) Except AHA for the last 30 years has taught that is starts at 4 minutes and by 8 its irreversible. So the goal is 4 minutes, not 8 or the big cheat that many systems use 8min 59 seconds (because that's still 8 minutes right, like when gas is $3.99 9/10 per gallon, but at least its not $4). Now their have been many other studies that show this time is critical, MI's, Choking, Strokes, Active Seizures, Trauma, etc. So its not just about cardiac arrest. Actually I am less worried about CA than many of the others, because technically they are already dead, and you cant get worst than that.

3) Can you state some of those, I've always hear 1 min. And NFPA, UL and NIST have done a numerous of studies to prove this. Now we do know that fires in the past 40 years have been growing in intensity (and we have not adjusted the response time to account for this). An increase in up to 80% in the BTU release due to the synthetics we are surrounding ourselves with. Most furniture went from natural products to "solid gasoline" (which is basically what the cushioning is). The other issue is we have gone to much greater insulation and tighter buildings (the NYS energy code) which traps heat in the building) shortening the time to flashover.

The 4 minute time, is what is needed to be on scene with enough time to place the 1st handline in place to prevent flashover (which is the time when the fire spreads from the room of origin to the rest of a structure).

4) You missed my point. I was saying that with the logic that is their were no calls during the relocation time, then we did not need to relocate. My point was that was the same logic as we don't need EMS to standby because no one is hurt yet.

5) Maybe you should rephrase, I do not believe that was what was said.

6) Yes you don't stand bye because EMS is so underfunded/understaffed.

[sympathomedic 383]

Barry I WISH THE LAWYERS WOULD HEAR IT! I feel that every time I am forced by agency policy to use RLS to a (VERY likely of not CONFIRMED non-life threatening) call I am betraying my responsibility to keep the public safe. As Thom Dick (writer for JEMS and EMERGENCY MAGAZINE) says, "If you do something you know is stupid, well, then you are stupid." I saw a stat that about 700 people per year die in collisions with emergency vehicles in North America (Canada too I guess?). If that is true, then we need to save 700 people per year by using RLS over regualar driving JUST TO BREAK EVEN!

When we had medics from London Ambulance Service ride with us, they said they spend two months of class time on driving training.

3. The website "statter911.com" used to have a search feature, and he once did an article about the dozens of quotes from fire service people stating that fires doubles in size every (fill in the blank). Like 30 quotes, each with a different time. I used to be able to find it using that search feature. Then he updated his site and I cannot find that search feature, so I can't send you the link.

4. My thinking was there being no calls/ no demand for service meant that a NON RLS response would be more appropriate. Sure you need EMS to standby. You just don't need them to hurry up RLS and wait.

[kinkchaser 352]

It has been my experience with the expression "no other fires will occur in the vacated district so what is the rush ?" My answer to that is, if things. didn't happen that couldn't happen. I wouldn't have had a job.

[AFS1970 504]

It seems to me that a number of factors need to come into play here.

How far away is the relocation?

What are the current traffic and weather conditions?

What kind of incident has the local units committed?

Are all surrounding areas also committed?

What is general call volume in the area you are relocating into?

What is the specific immediate call volume int eh area like today?

Some but not all of these may be important to each response, some relocations may be more important than others.

[Dinosaur 844]

4) If you get into an accident, the facts of how you are operating RLS will be a bigger consideration for the lawyers. 3 years ago I went Mutual Aid to Yonkers (standby with Eng & Lad + me at Sta. #1) I went no RLS (do not know what the rigs did) and before I got to the house (but was in the city), was redirected to a report of a structure fire with children trapped on the 3rd floor. I was going RLS, and was involved in an MVA at an intersection. My dept vehicle had minor damage ($1,200), but the other vehicle (brand new Cadillac) along with 2 other cars were totaled and 2 other cars and some fences were damaged. The other driver sued & all the lawyers jumped on the band wagon, because RLS...its a slam dunk right?

Our lawyers had never seen our vehicle tracking logs that showed I came to a complete stop before proceeding into the intersection. At the time of the impact I was travelling under 5mph (documented). The damage to the other vehicle was a small dent in a door (estimated $1000 or less). The other driver panicked after the crash and stood on the accelerator for the next 2 blocks, bouncing of 4 cars, 2 iron fences and a guard rail. All the lawyers dropped it. Why? they determined I was properly operating an emergency vehicle and the other driver failed to yield, then failed to control his vehicle. If he had stepped on the break it would have been the end of it. Just because you are going RLS does not mean you will be wrong. Know, no one was hurt, but you are making legal assumptions, that may or may not be reality. We did not pay for any other damage than my car and the other drivers insurance paid for the damages he caused to everyone else.

Without the recorded data from your vehicle do you think it would have gone so smoothly or would you have been giving depositions for months while the lawyers jockeyed for a settlement from the city?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry I WISH THE LAWYERS WOULD HEAR IT!

I found its rarely coming from the lawyers. Its coming from the "Firehouse Lawyers" like the ones here. Or from the managers who have spoken with a lawyer (general law, not one that specializes in this). It has often be said that if you ask a roomful of lawyers an opinion, you will get a different one from everyone in the room. That being said, I know an emergency service lawyer, who will save you or take everything you own (depending on which side he is on) if you screw up with a response. He particularly likes going after agency for poor maintenance or failing to replace equipment that should have been.

Without the recorded data from your vehicle do you think it would have gone so smoothly or would you have been giving depositions for months while the lawyers jockeyed for a settlement from the city?

You are correct. I would have still been fighting this

[S1720G 62]

When you start google mapping things to prove a point in emt bravo....

[Remember585 815]

It isn't just the relocates that we don't need to go lights and sirens to. There's quite a few call types we honestly could scale back on and not use our warning devices.

But that's a whole 'nother conversation...

[Bnechis 3,961]

It isn't just the relocates that we don't need to go lights and sirens to. There's quite a few call types we honestly could scale back on and not use our warning devices.

But that's a whole 'nother conversation...

We can not even get dispatch to properly acknowledge no RLS when the IC orders it.

[RWC130 594]

How many PD, FD and EMS agencies have a SOP/SOG on the USE OF LIGHTS & SIREN

and enforce it?

[M' Ave 1,466]

How many PD, FD and EMS agencies have a SOP/SOG on the USE OF LIGHTS & SIREN

and enforce it?

We do in the City and it is strictly enforced. No RLS for odors of gas or alarms ringing for 2nd and 3rd due units. Same holds true for automatic alarms and street pull boxes with no contact.

This used to include Manhole emergencies (excluding fire) and, I believe, water conditions (in a building). However, I believe, they were part of some changes. Water does a lot of damage in a short time and you never REALLY know what troubles a manhole emergency could pose.

There might be some more as far as specifics go, but I'm not sure myself.

All this aside.....regulations are only part of the battle. Being able to temper a response using your own judgement is irreplaceable. If you've been doing this long enough, you know what when you can use the siren and lights, but very judiciously and come to a crawl at an intersection, ect....

....and you should know when it's time to step it up a little. Reports of people trapped above a fire, in the apartment or perhaps smoke visible in the air. Could be reports of an unconscious infant or civilian CPR in progress.

Use your head....