FF1 revisions

[ex-commish 490]

I read the new revisions for the skills test where you have to complete several tasks wearing SCBA and finish the tasks under 30 minutes. Just wondering what the thoughts are.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Long overdue

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Is this part of the ProBoard program, or the NY programs that don't really apply anywhere else?

[JM15 386]

Are you referring to the "agility test" that is required to get into the class? If so I think it is a great idea.

[38ff 250]

There is a breathe down exercise where you need to complete 8 stations while on air. It is pass/fail. If you fail, you will not complete the class. They expect some people to fail. Also, you need to have first aid/CPR/AED as prereq's. That's the word our county put out. I think it is a good thing

[somebuffyguy 190]

Here's the agility, it's essentially a modified CPAT but on air, and the time limit is how long you can last on your bottle.

http://emergencyservices.westchestergov.com/firefighter-1-update

Does anyone know the reason for not just going with the CPAT? Also at what point in the class will the agility be given?

[38ff 250]

A ceiling simulator???????????????

[Danger 160]

A ceiling simulator???????????????

Yeah, pulling ceilings.

[S1720G 62]

So it's similar to the cpat

[ex-commish 490]

Long overdue

Long overdue

I agree

Edited November 27, 2014 by HFD219

[38ff 250]

Most depts in my area don't have a door simulator, much less a ceiling simulator. And our county doesn't have a county training center.

This will make for an interesting conversation at the next county meeting.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This will actually eliminate some of the candidates that should not even be accepted into the departments. Some departments are so desperate that they will accept anyone with a pulse and that does not help with the mission.

[38ff 250]

100% agreed. Not everyone is cut out to be an interior FF. Hopefully NYS will offer more scene support classes to help compensate for those who can't hack FF1

[FD7807 59]

I may regret ever bringing this up. And before I do let me start by saying I believe we need to stress conditioning and prepare our members for the worst and hopefor the best. That said this station test seems a bit over the top. I mean what firefighter has ever gotten off a rig then dragged hose, carried hose, forced a door, pulled a ceiling, carried and set up a ground ladder then saved someone all on 1 bottle ? I get we need to stress fitness but department medicals should weed out those who should not be going interior. This is just my opinion. I yhink this agility is a bit over the top.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

can the trainers do this? i would like to see them do it.

[CFI609D 119]

can the trainers do this? i would like to see them do it.

Yes, in Westchester all of the CFIs and SFIs can.

And any person who cannot pass this simple series of job related tasks should not be allowed in the fire service. Period.

[robert benz 344]

can the trainers do this? i would like to see them do it.

wow really!!! so I guess you have no problem being teamed up with someone who CANT do this and he/she is your interior partner.

How did the instructors become the enemy in your mind?

[robert benz 344]

I may regret ever bringing this up. And before I do let me start by saying I believe we need to stress conditioning and prepare our members for the worst and hopefor the best. That said this station test seems a bit over the top. I mean what firefighter has ever gotten off a rig then dragged hose, carried hose, forced a door, pulled a ceiling, carried and set up a ground ladder then saved someone all on 1 bottle ? I get we need to stress fitness but department medicals should weed out those who should not be going interior. This is just my opinion. I yhink this agility is a bit over the top.

so just a medical no physical abilities at all? while I am on the subject how strict is your (not specifically your) dept on facial hair. Sure I shaved the day I needed to pass the fit test, and then grew my beard back. I see plenty of that at the academy from chiefs on down, all calling themselves interior. HMMM and medicals are supposed to be the only reason someone shouldn't be interior.

Why is it that everytime the fire service asks for a bare minimum standard it is looked at like we are being forced out of business?.

[FD7807 59]

so just a medical no physical abilities at all? while I am on the subject how strict is your (not specifically your) dept on facial hair. Sure I shaved the day I needed to pass the fit test, and then grew my beard back. I see plenty of that at the academy from chiefs on down, all calling themselves interior. HMMM and medicals are supposed to be the only reason someone shouldn't be interior.

Why is it that everytime the fire service asks for a bare minimum standard it is looked at like we are being forced out of business?.

as I said Im not looking to turn this into paid vs. Volunteer kr anything like that. And I am one who trains regularly and never went for yhe bare minimum. That said I believe in training as well as conditioning but feel like that addition to the curriculum is over the top. And I never stated medicals alone weed out the out of shape.

[Dinosaur 844]

It is time we stop the nonsense and make one standard for firefighter. Enough of this "interior", "exterior", "support" nonsense.

There should definitely be standards and the idea of testing candidates on air is a realistic and appropriate screening method. If you can't perform the skills while on air, why bother going through all the training?

[38ff 250]

With the new changes, if you cant pass the breathe down, you will not continue the training. That's what we were told by our County Coordinator.

[ex-commish 490]

"It is time we stop the nonsense and make one standard for firefighter. Enough of this "interior", "exterior"

Are you referring to new members or those allready in?

[Bnechis 3,961]

That said I believe in training as well as conditioning but feel like that addition to the curriculum is over the top.

Interesting that its viewed as additions.

When FF1 was first introduced, it was pointed out on multiple occasions, by a number of people that it was less training and skills than most other states consider as the minimum for FF1. Of greater importance it was pointed out that someone who passed FF1 did not meet the minimum legal requirements to respond to or operate at a fire based on NYS Labor Law. But FASNY and other groups convinced OFPC that that did not matter, the real issue was we do not want to much training.

OFPC finally realizes that what was the "minimum" was below legal levels and that leaves everyone in danger.

[FD7807 59]

Interesting that its viewed as additions.

When FF1 was first introduced, it was pointed out on multiple occasions, by a number of people that it was less training and skills than most other states consider as the minimum for FF1. Of greater importance it was pointed out that someone who passed FF1 did not meet the minimum legal requirements to respond to or operate at a fire based on NYS Labor Law. But FASNY and other groups convinced OFPC that that did not matter, the real issue was we do not want to much training.

OFPC finally realizes that what was the "minimum" was below legal levels and that leaves everyone in danger.

.

it is an addition if it was not required and now is. AAgain not fighting the need I am simply saying that 1 cylindar to do all that in succession itome seems a bit much. And to the memberwho said we need 1 standard for all firefighters in lieu of interior and exterior thats nuts. Every FD and PD has people on full time desk duty. There is a job for everyone in this service.

[Bnechis 3,961]

.

it is an addition if it was not required and now is. AAgain not fighting the need I am simply saying that 1 cylindar to do all that in succession itome seems a bit much. And to the memberwho said we need 1 standard for all firefighters in lieu of interior and exterior thats nuts. Every FD and PD has people on full time desk duty. There is a job for everyone in this service.

It was a legal requirement that everyone chose to ignore. Now since OFPC is in agreement FD's must comply.

While their is a job for everyone, 90% of what is needed is interior and most depts. are lucky if they have 50%.

[AFS1970 504]

This is probably in the long run a good thing.

I agree that doing a series of tasks in short order on a single bottle of air is unrealistic, unless we are going to drop that pesky rehab standard that was implemented a few years ago. You know the one that limits the time you can work without a rest period. Which probably would prevent you from doing a rapid series of tasks on a single bottle on a fire ground.

As for the ability of the instructors to do this, I would be willing to bet that most can, however we all know guys who while mostly good at what they do have made teaching their main career and have not been in a fire in years. I have a feeling that this is who will be questioned, not the younger gung ho guys who nobody doubts can do the job.

As for a single standard, that is good in theory but has some problems in practice. The ability of someone in a career department to spend more time training is a reality that we have to face. The ability of a department to order someone to attend an academy on a full time basis is simply not there in a volunteer department or even some smaller career departments. a 14 week academy is over 500 hours, when I took FF1 is was about 120, the same for FF2 which together equal about half of that time. So how long would it take to run that full time standard on a part time basis?

I doubt that this standard will be applied to existing personnel, much in the same way that the CPAT was not. The concept of grandfathering is alive and well and in most cases reasonably applied in the fire service. So a single standard if possible will take years to implement, possibly 20 or more.

I don't think we need to get rid of support positions or exterior positions, although they probably need to be standardized as everyone seems to define them slightly differently. No matter the kind of department the guy who only files paperwork does not need to pass an interior standard any more than a paramedic does, as neither one is going into a burning building any time soon.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As for a single standard, that is good in theory but has some problems in practice. The ability of someone in a career department to spend more time training is a reality that we have to face. The ability of a department to order someone to attend an academy on a full time basis is simply not there in a volunteer department or even some smaller career departments. a 14 week academy is over 500 hours, when I took FF1 is was about 120, the same for FF2 which together equal about half of that time. So how long would it take to run that full time standard on a part time basis?

This is very far from being a single standard. So 20+ hours has been added. The Westchester career fire academy is now 17 weeks (680 hours) plus most have to become EMT after that (160 hours). Plus the state annual requirements for career is 12x more.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Yes, in Westchester all of the CFIs and SFIs can.

And any person who cannot pass this simple series of job related tasks should not be allowed in the fire service. Period.

glad to see you have the backs of the volunteer FF.s in your batt.thanks.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

wow really!!! so I guess you have no problem being teamed up with someone who CANT do this and he/she is your interior partner.

How did the instructors become the enemy in your mind?

not a enemy in my mind i know you can do it no problem there.but i know a few that cant and dont even fight fires any more like its ben said here.im in favor of training and change and respect a man like your self who is still on the front lines just like my self.i have seen alot of changes in the new FFs after they have taken there training at the county and they keep going back for more its like they get hooked on it and thats GREAT.and they benefit as well as the dept.

[firecapt32 282]

its called TOAC--task-orientated-air-consumption. it is given in the third session of FF1 a student will be given two chances to pass the TOAC. the second chance will be given later in the course. The TOAC students will have a set of vitals taken before and after the test. medical staffing must be present during the testing.

There is a lot more then just this--there are 16 skills that have to be done and signed off by the home department. New Books-- its the start of a new look for OFPC. this new FF1 class will allow students to take National Certification upon completion. and by the way signing a false skill sheet is considered a misdemeanor and may be punishable.

FYI-- CPAT is considered a entry level test..TOAC is considered skills oriented.