FF1 revisions

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Based on my count 31 interior firefighters in the 1st 12 minutes. and additional 24 interior within the next 12 minutes and another 12 in the following 10 minutes. Total of about 67 interior qualified firefighters in approx. 30 minutes (including relocates).

You do not know any of the career people here or how much training we do. I have time in the evenings to try to educate/inform. I have the time because I get to work every day in the fire service. I suspect I have more hours training others (plus the training I have received) than you will ever have.

If you do not have the time, then how have you been managing to spend it all here. But you know everything.

not at all you know everything not me but like i said i am done with this one.i hope you really dont believe there was 31 in the first 12min do you.i do have more respect for you than that.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Care to give that another shot in English?

LOL.

[Bnechis 3,961]

not at all you know everything not me but like i said i am done with this one.i hope you really dont believe there was 31 in the first 12min do you.i do have more respect for you than that.

Have no idea what you are talking about.

I am just going by the run card for apparatus and knowing what was dispatched and what the minimum staffing is on those rigs.

[Dinosaur 844]

Have no idea what you are talking about.

I am just going by the run card for apparatus and knowing what was dispatched and what the minimum staffing is on those rigs.

You can't win with facts. You need to be emotional and entrenched in traditional responses. Don't open your eyes and tell it like it is.

[FD7807 59]

You can't win with facts. You need to be emotional and entrenched in traditional responses. Don't open your eyes and tell it like it is.

Not sure if this qualifies as emotional or not but I for one get tired of coming on this site trying to read what going on only to read the same guys volly bash day after day topic after topic. Go ahead deny it. Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it. If my taxes go up anymore Im going to live in the YMCA. that said I train like my life depends on it and give my town the very best effort and professionalattitude that I can at the end of the day can only control what I do. Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

[FireMedic049 597]

Not sure if this qualifies as emotional or not but I for one get tired of coming on this site trying to read what going on only to read the same guys volly bash day after day topic after topic. Go ahead deny it.

It happens, but I don't think it happens as often as you are stating and it's not a one way street. Additionally, "bashing" is subjective and it seems like a lot of volunteers get real defensive about any sort of actual or perceived criticism, no matter how valid it might be.

Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it.

While this is true, it's also true that some municipalities can handle the expense of a paid FD or at least a combination FD, but choose not to have one. That's fine if the VFD can provide an adequate, consistent response. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. Part of the problem with this is the insistence by volunteers that want to be seen as "the same" as the career FFs and departments, but aren't actually operating on that same level.

If my taxes go up anymore Im going to live in the YMCA. that said I train like my life depends on it and give my town the very best effort and professionalattitude that I can at the end of the day can only control what I do.

That's great, but unfortunately not everybody strives for that level of effort.

Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

And failing to acknowledge the shortcomings/limitations that your department has and not working to address them is not being part of the solution.

[FD7807 59]

Not sure if this qualifies as emotional or not but I for one get tired of coming on this site trying to read what going on only to read the same guys volly bash day after day topic after topic. Go ahead deny it.

It happens, but I don't think it happens as often as you are stating and it's not a one way street. Additionally, "bashing" is subjective and it seems like a lot of volunteers get real defensive about any sort of actual or perceived criticism, no matter how valid it might be.

Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it.

While this is true, it's also true that some municipalities can handle the expense of a paid FD or at least a combination FD, but choose not to have one. That's fine if the VFD can provide an adequate, consistent response. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. Part of the problem with this is the insistence by volunteers that want to be seen as "the same" as the career FFs and departments, but aren't actually operating on that same level.

If my taxes go up anymore Im going to live in the YMCA. that said I train like my life depends on it and give my town the very best effort and professionalattitude that I can at the end of the day can only control what I do.

That's great, but unfortunately not everybody strives for that level of effort.

Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

And failing to acknowledge the shortcomings/limitations that your department has and not working to address them is not being part of the solution.

1. If you knew me you would know I stand for progressive change within my department and have for years

2. Every FD career (see Secret List abt Hartford ( and volunteer has issues. My pt is dont limits your endless rants to just volunteers

3. Woery about your own department

[FireMedic049 597]

1. If you knew me you would know I stand for progressive change within my department and have for years

That's great, but as I noted above, not everybody feels that way.

2. Every FD career (see Secret List abt Hartford ( and volunteer has issues.

Yes, that is correct and I'm well aware of it.

My pt is dont limits your endless rants to just volunteers

Mine?

3. Woery about your own department

I do worry about my department, but I don't have to be limited to just my department. 1) As a small career department, we routinely rely on some of the VFDs in the area to assist us on our working fires and/or to provide coverage for our city during them. We also provide mutual aid to some of them at times. As such, I have a vested interest in their competency as a FD and as individual FFs. 2) I have family in a number of different locations and want them to be served by a reliable, competent FD. 3) I routinely venture outside of my city and should I need assistance from a FD while outside it, I would want them to be reliable and competent in providing that assistance. 4) I have many FF friends across my state and beyond and would want the firefighters and departments that they work along side to also be reliable and competent for their welfare. 5) I work EMS on the side. We cover several municipalities other than my city and routinely respond mutual aid into several more. That amounts to a lot of VFDs that I may find myself working with for rescue situations or other things and for the safety of myself, my crew and my patient I would want them to be reliable and competent to provide those services. 6) I worry about people and departments who's actions reflect negatively upon my profession and can erode the public trust in the fire service that has been built over numerous decades.

[gamewell45 258]

Spoken like a true NY volunteer.

Stereotyping again I see.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it.

While this is true, it's also true that some municipalities can handle the expense of a paid FD or at least a combination FD, but choose not to have one. That's fine if the VFD can provide an adequate, consistent response. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. Part of the problem with this is the insistence by volunteers that want to be seen as "the same" as the career FFs and departments, but aren't actually operating on that same level.

Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

And failing to acknowledge the shortcomings/limitations that your department has and not working to address them is not being part of the solution.

Actually, the majority of suburban communities would save the property owners money if they 1) consolidated on a regional or at least a town basis. Why Westchester needs more engines than FDNY to cover a little more than a 10th of the population and in many communities to respond with only 1 ff per rig is idiotic. 2) Switching from volunteer to career actually saves property owners annual out of pocket costs. Since insurance savings are directly tied to your FD and the personnel typing/training. In my community we calculated that to keep the same ISO rating with 100% volunteers would require over 450 interior volunteers. In the meantime we are saving our property owners more money that the annual FD Budget.

To bad most people both inside and outside the fire service have no understanding of the economics of fire protection and always fall back to volunteers are cheaper than career. And they are, but only if you leave out the most expensive components of fire protections (the FD is the 4th on the list, even for career depts.)

You have no idea how involved some of us are in this. I also know how many depts. in this county can't get the most basic trained and staffed units on the road the majority of the time.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it.

While this is true, it's also true that some municipalities can handle the expense of a paid FD or at least a combination FD, but choose not to have one. That's fine if the VFD can provide an adequate, consistent response. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. Part of the problem with this is the insistence by volunteers that want to be seen as "the same" as the career FFs and departments, but aren't actually operating on that same level.

Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

And failing to acknowledge the shortcomings/limitations that your department has and not working to address them is not being part of the solution.

Actually, the majority of suburban communities would save the property owners money if they 1) consolidated on a regional or at least a town basis. Why Westchester needs more engines than FDNY to cover a little more than a 10th of the population and in many communities to respond with only 1 ff per rig is idiotic. 2) Switching from volunteer to career actually saves property owners annual out of pocket costs. Since insurance savings are directly tied to your FD and the personnel typing/training. In my community we calculated that to keep the same ISO rating with 100% volunteers would require over 450 interior volunteers. In the meantime we are saving our property owners more money that the annual FD Budget.

To bad most people both inside and outside the fire service have no understanding of the economics of fire protection and always fall back to volunteers are cheaper than career. And they are, but only if you leave out the most expensive components of fire protections (the FD is the 4th on the list, even for career depts.)

You have no idea how involved some of us are in this. I also know how many depts. in this county can't get the most basic trained and staffed units on the road the majority of the time.

i can tell how involved you and the unions are involved in this working against the local volunteers nice job guys.remember all you say and do but 90% of volunteers make up the fire service.and meny of us started out as a volunteer.my volunteer dept is in good shape in training and is priority no.1! we respond with more FF.1 FF.2 then most dept.s do and take great pride the training we take in house and at the county fire training center and all are first aid CPR and AED certs.the volunteer bashing has to stop guys.a county paid dept is not going to happen in westchester so lets train and get along.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1. If you knew me you would know I stand for progressive change within my department and have for years

2. Every FD career (see Secret List abt Hartford ( and volunteer has issues. My pt is dont limits your endless rants to just volunteers

3. Woery about your own department

1. That's great. If more members would, we would be in much better shape.

2. Yes we know, but they are different issues that need to be addressed in different ways.

3. I do, and spend a substantial amount of time weekly working at it thank you.. I have also been involved in training and consulting 100's of other depts. and I am sorry if I do care about other depts. and firefighters from other communities, even those that want to bury their head in the sand.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) i can tell how involved you and the unions are involved in this working against the local volunteers nice job guys.

2) remember all you say and do but 90% of volunteers make up the fire service.

3) and meny of us started out as a volunteer.

4) my volunteer dept is in good shape in training and is priority no.1! we respond with more FF.1 FF.2 then most dept.s do and take great pride the training we take in house and at the county fire training center and all are first aid CPR and AED certs.

5) the volunteer bashing has to stop guys.a county paid dept is not going to happen in westchester so lets train and get along.

1) So please tell, I have been active in both volunteer depts. and in the union and I would like to know because we have way more important things to worry about than that. My efforts have never been to work against VFD's but to get them to open their eyes and see that everything is changing and they need to change too. And if they do not they will fail. Its a big conspiracy....we meet late at night to cover up the Kennedy assassination and to destroy the VFD's...not.

2) Actually based on the latest figures put our by NFPA it has dropped to about 60%. And its been dropping by about 4-7% per year on a national level. Also consider that career depts. protect approximately 80% of the population of the U.S. and respond on 80 - 90% of the calls for fire service.

3) So did I and my former FD still calls me for advise thank you and I gladly assist them.

4) That's great. As you said, "more than most"....Then my comments do not affect your dept. but they affect many depts. that (career and volunteer) that do not meet the standards.

5) Its not volunteer bashing. Its pointing out substandard service and it does not mater if its vol, combo or career. I have nothing against volunteers, I have a lot of issue with those that fail to uphold their oath and failing to speak out when you know their is a problem is no different. Its to bad you can not see that.

[Viper 139]

i can tell how involved you and the unions are involved in this working against the local volunteers nice job guys.

so lets train and get along

You seem hell bent on promoting the "career vs. volunteer" rhetoric in many of the posts you make. It's almost like you feel threatened somehow by something. There was some good discussion on this thread until you decided to drag it down a path irrelevant to this topic.

How are the unions working against volunteers? Is your agency, and the volunteer fire service, as flawless as you say it is? It's perfect and there is nothing to improve on?

How do you propose we "train and get along"? I'm interested to hear what solutions you propose to the problems you perceive and accusations you make. .

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Not for nothing, I'm a member of a 100% volunteer station that (as of December 16th at 1400 hours), has responded to 6,435 alarms in 2014. December 29th will mark 1 year of 100% volunteer service.

Minimum Staffing for the Engine Company: 3

Minimum Staffing for the Rescue Squad: 4

We're averaging around 50 people providing staffing each month, some EMS only but most are Fire/EMS. If you have non Pro-Board FF1 you must attend a bridge class to meet the minimum training requirements.

W do NOT miss calls for service.

If your department is progressive and proactive in approaching your manpower issues, you can solve the problem. Its not easy, but nothing worth doing ever is. But if your department is using the same staffing plan you used in 1950 (with the same training qualifications) then you're going to have some troubles.

Edited December 26, 2014 by SageVigiles

[FireMedic049 597]

Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it.

While this is true, it's also true that some municipalities can handle the expense of a paid FD or at least a combination FD, but choose not to have one. That's fine if the VFD can provide an adequate, consistent response. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. Part of the problem with this is the insistence by volunteers that want to be seen as "the same" as the career FFs and departments, but aren't actually operating on that same level.

Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

And failing to acknowledge the shortcomings/limitations that your department has and not working to address them is not being part of the solution.

Actually, the majority of suburban communities would save the property owners money if they 1) consolidated on a regional or at least a town basis. Why Westchester needs more engines than FDNY to cover a little more than a 10th of the population and in many communities to respond with only 1 ff per rig is idiotic. 2) Switching from volunteer to career actually saves property owners annual out of pocket costs. Since insurance savings are directly tied to your FD and the personnel typing/training. In my community we calculated that to keep the same ISO rating with 100% volunteers would require over 450 interior volunteers. In the meantime we are saving our property owners more money that the annual FD Budget.

To bad most people both inside and outside the fire service have no understanding of the economics of fire protection and always fall back to volunteers are cheaper than career. And they are, but only if you leave out the most expensive components of fire protections (the FD is the 4th on the list, even for career depts.)

You have no idea how involved some of us are in this. I also know how many depts. in this county can't get the most basic trained and staffed units on the road the majority of the time.

I can definitely relate. The county I live and work in has over 200 fire stations. Roughly 30 of which belong to the 2nd largest city in the state. I did a comparison a few years back on station distribution (# of stations per square miles). I looked at PG County, MD and Fairfax County, VA and found that their distributions were in the area of 10 square miles per station. My county came in right around 3 square miles per station - both including and excluding that city

in the calculation.

Another thing I looked at was the cost of career fire protection in my city per household. Using my department's annual budget and the most current census data at the time, I found that as a homeowner, I pay a little over $200 per year for career fire protection. And that figure excludes anything commercial properties are contributing. Now, I'll readily admit that we have less staffing than we probably should have and aren't as fully equipped as we should be, but considering how much most people pay per year for "essential" things like cell phones, cable TV or the internet, we're a pretty good bargain.

[FireMedic049 597]

i can tell how involved you and the unions are involved in this working against the local volunteers nice job guys.

How exactly are we "working against the local volunteers"?

remember all you say and do but 90% of volunteers make up the fire service.and meny of us started out as a volunteer.

As was already pointed out to you, your numbers are off. I also started out as a volunteer and was fortunate enough for it to have been in a top notch operation.

my volunteer dept is in good shape in training and is priority no.1! we respond with more FF.1 FF.2 then most dept.s do and take great pride the training we take in house and at the county fire training center and all are first aid CPR and AED certs.

Great for you.

the volunteer bashing has to stop guys.

Sure, along with stopping the bashing of the paid guys, right? However, as I pointed out before, some of it isn't "bashing" just because your feelings get hurt.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

i can tell how involved you and the unions are involved in this working against the local volunteers nice job guys.

How exactly are we "working against the local volunteers"?

remember all you say and do but 90% of volunteers make up the fire service.and meny of us started out as a volunteer.

As was already pointed out to you, your numbers are off. I also started out as a volunteer and was fortunate enough for it to have been in a top notch operation.

my volunteer dept is in good shape in training and is priority no.1! we respond with more FF.1 FF.2 then most dept.s do and take great pride the training we take in house and at the county fire training center and all are first aid CPR and AED certs.

Great for you.

the volunteer bashing has to stop guys.

Sure, along with stopping the bashing of the paid guys, right? However, as I pointed out before, some of it isn't "bashing" just because your feelings get hurt.

smh really.no feelings hurt at all thank you.but this going around and around when will it stop?we all know we need to train things change every day find some thing els to bash .you guys keep on with the volunteer thing give it a break. your not changing the world so move on all this BS is not worth any thing. i wish all the new FF.s the best with the new FF1class.

[Viper 139]

smh really.no feelings hurt at all thank you.but this going around and around when will it stop?we all know we need to train things change every day find some thing els to bash .you guys keep on with the volunteer thing give it a break. your not changing the world so move on all this BS is not worth any thing. i wish all the new FF.s the best with the new FF1class.

I really don't see anybody "bashing" but you. What exactly are you defining as "bashing"? You're throwing irrelevant accusations around to drag this topic down, and people give you a response to those accusations and false impressions you seem to have and all you have is defensive remarks.

Please reply to my question above.........How do you propose we "train and get along" if, as evidenced above, people like you don't even want to listen? I'm interested to hear what solutions you propose to the problems you perceive and accusations you make.

[FD7807 59]

I really don't see anybody "bashing" but you. What exactly are you defining as "bashing"? You're throwing irrelevant accusations around to drag this topic down, and people give you a response to those accusations and false impressions you seem to have and all you have is defensive remarks.

Please reply to my question above.........How do you propose we "train and get along" if, as evidenced above, people like you don't even want to listen? I'm interested to hear what solutions you propose to the problems you perceive and accusations you make.

Simple-everyone go back and worry about their own department. Identify what is working, define what is not working, find a solution of how to ovrrcome that and then work as hard as you can to fix them. No matter how hard or how much anyone on here wants to you cannot fix other departments. Legislation will only work so much bc the more the government gets involved the more things get f#/^&d up.

[somebuffyguy 190]

Simple-everyone go back and worry about their own department. Identify what is working, define what is not working, find a solution of how to ovrrcome that and then work as hard as you can to fix them. No matter how hard or how much anyone on here wants to you cannot fix other departments. Legislation will only work so much bc the more the government gets involved the more things get f#/^&d up.

That's all well and good, but Westchester is too small and interdependent to just have everyone worry about themselves. When was the last time the was a fire (outside of the big cities) handled by one FD? We work and depend on our neighbors all the time, so there needs to be some consistency.

[FireMedic049 597]

smh really.no feelings hurt at all thank you.but this going around and around when will it stop?we all know we need to train things change every day find some thing els to bash .you guys keep on with the volunteer thing give it a break. your not changing the world so move on all this BS is not worth any thing. i wish all the new FF.s the best with the new FF1class.

Maybe if you would actually answer the questions being asked of you, we might be inclined to move on to a different topic.

[FireMedic049 597]

Legislation will only work so much bc the more the government gets involved the more things get f#/^&d up.

Right, just look what happened to EMS when the government got involved with that. Definitely don't want that to happen to the fire service.

[FD7807 59]

That's all well and good, but Westchester is too small and interdependent to just have everyone worry about themselves. When was the last time the was a fire (outside of the big cities) handled by one FD? We work and depend on our neighbors all the time, so there needs to be some consistency.

while that might be true to some degree you learn what departments you can and cannot count on.

[Dinosaur 844]

Not sure if this qualifies as emotional or not but I for one get tired of coming on this site trying to read what going on only to read the same guys volly bash day after day topic after topic. Go ahead deny it. Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it. If my taxes go up anymore Im going to live in the YMCA. that said I train like my life depends on it and give my town the very best effort and professionalattitude that I can at the end of the day can only control what I do. Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

If you're saying that I'm vollie bashing because I don't think advocating lower standards for volunteer FF than career FF is right then I'm guilty.

If you're saying that supporting a single FF training standard for the state of NY is vollie bashing then I'm guilty.

I am equally tired of coming to this site to hear that people are going out and doing the job with un or under qualified people, inadequate numbers, and a completely blind and or deaf administration that condones it.

If you've ever read any of my posts, you know that I'm equally critical of the so-called career or combination departments that respond with 1-2 FF per apparatus. That's just stupid!

If lobbying for a single standard isn't being part of the solution, please enlighten me. What is?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Right, just look what happened to EMS when the government got involved with that. Definitely don't want that to happen to the fire service.

True, in our county, in dozens of communities they would throw you in the back of a police van or station wagon, with no attendant and no training a race you to the hospital. We had communities that actually turned down free ALS because "our community does not want trained EMS, they want a friendly face holding your hand in the back of our Ambulance" during your heart attack. Now ALS is mandated. EMT's are mandated....

[Bnechis 3,961]

Simple-everyone go back and worry about their own department.

That's all well and good, but Westchester is too small and interdependent to just have everyone worry about themselves. When was the last time the was a fire (outside of the big cities) handled by one FD? We work and depend on our neighbors all the time, so there needs to be some consistency.

while that might be true to some degree you learn what departments you can and cannot count on.

I was thinking about this for a while, but you answered it so well. So do not worry about any other departments, just your own, then learn which ones you can count on and which ones you can not. So I am driving through town X and their are a half dozen depts. if I crash, I need to know which line I should slide over so I might survive?

Or Dept. X has 4 mutual aid depts. 2 it trusts and 2 it does not, what happens when their is a fire in your district and one of theirs at the same time, And you only get the 2 you do not trust. Does the trust change when your dept gets a new chief. I have often seen new chiefs change mutual aid run cards?

Or what happens when the other depts. say the dept not to trust is yours?

[FD7807 59]

Right, just look what happened to EMS when the government got involved with that. Definitely don't want that to happen to the fire service.

Sarcastic ? and healthcare reform gun control and economicbailouts were a whirling success.

Edited December 26, 2014 by FD7807

[FD7807 59]

I was thinking about this for a while, but you answered it so well. So do not worry about any other departments, just your own, then learn which ones you can count on and which ones you can not. So I am driving through town X and their are a half dozen depts. if I crash, I need to know which line I should slide over so I might survive?

Or Dept. X has 4 mutual aid depts. 2 it trusts and 2 it does not, what happens when their is a fire in your district and one of theirs at the same time, And you only get the 2 you do not trust. Does the trust change when your dept gets a new chief. I have often seen new chiefs change mutual aid run cards?

Or what happens when the other depts. say the dept not to trust is yours?

By that logic you would never drive yhrough Newark or South Central LA due to the fear of being carjacked. And by that logic all cities in Westchester would be equally safe because all PD have the same standards. Fact is its not all about who has the longest academy.

And if my FD is not on other towns 10-75 cards then I guess we will need to work harder and make ourself better which we do anyway.im in a department thats far from perfect but we have made a lot of positive changes

[FireMedic049 597]

Sarcastic ? Absolutely!!

and healthcare reform gun control and economicbailouts were a whirling success. Those are hardly comparable to the regulation of EMS.