Car Blocked hydrants

[BFD389RET 112]

http://www.firehouse.com/news/12019549/boston-firefighter-contend-with-blocked-hydrant

I know we all have seen the smashed window of the cars with a supply line going through the passenger compt, many folks don't get how important it is, And many of Boston's neighborhoods are Just that tight!!

[sfrd18 360]

Another Boston hydrant...another BMW.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

They should be seized and donated to the local FD for extrication training. Towing at the owner's expense, of course.

[robert benz 344]

Another Boston hydrant...another BMW.

although they proved their point, look at the kink of the ldh. as a boss I would question why they didn't use a side gate.

[antiquefirelt 994]

In both case show here the line appears that it will have significant friction loss from the kink. I wouldn't think twice about damaging the car, but I would hope for adequate water. The latest (first pics?) looks as if the kink might completely occlude the line. As said above, I'd expect a 2.5" to 5" storz adapter off a side port, then the line. Maybe not the best flow, but almost a guarantee to be better than the kinked lines. That said, is BFD's SOP that the Hydrant Assist Valve be placed every time? I'm lost on why they use it so close to the pumper? Typically used to lay in and have water before the next in can "boost" the pressure. Maybe it's an expensive shut off valve?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I don't blame them for parking there, although they shouldn't park there. Cities should have more car garages where you can park your car, not in the way of a fire hydrant. Parking is a big issue in the city these days.

Another fantastic example of the self-importance and blame projection of modern society: "I don't have to follow the rules. Its the city's fault I had to block lifesaving safety equipment."

Edited November 17, 2014 by SageVigiles

[dwcfireman 656]

Wouldn't something like this be useful at the hydrant when it's blocked? We already put 5" elbows on our front bumpers (front suction); why can't we use an elbow as part of a hydrant connection?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't blame them for parking there, although they shouldn't park there. Cities should have more car garages where you can park your car, not in the way of a fire hydrant. Parking is a big issue in the city these days.

Their are plenty of parking garages, to many drivers feel they should not have to pay for parking and these "spaces" have no meters.

[Bnechis 3,961]

although they proved their point, look at the kink of the ldh. as a boss I would question why they didn't use a side gate.

Agreed. Going this way put firefighters in danger. How much water is going to flow through this?

This was done to prove a point to the car owner, but at the potential expense of members operating and potential loss of more of the fire building.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If there were more parking this wouldn't be an issue.

If their were fewer cars this wouldn't be an issue. Most cities were built 100-200 years before cars.

Even if their was more parking, if this was the cheapest or most convenient space, someone would park there.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Wouldn't something like this be useful at the hydrant when it's blocked? We already put 5" elbows on our front bumpers (front suction); why can't we use an elbow as part of a hydrant connection?

That is a front bumper mount, it will not fit on a hydrant. If you want to put a 90 degree elbow on the hydrant it is doable, but more s*** to unload when you stop at the hydrant. Why not use the side outlet?

And that elbow on the front bumper is a giant waste. Adds $40,000 - &60,000 to the cost (plus additional maintenance costs), the friction loss to get from the front bumper to the pump is equal to 112+ feet of hose (to travel 15 feet) and it reduces the flow by up to 30%. In other words why buy a 1,500gpm pump when you plan to cap its supply at 1,000gpm?

Final issue with the front swivel is that without very good driver discipline, I have seen many cases where the driver will nose into the hydrant, this causes the tail end to push out into the street. Thus blocking other apparatus, including the truck.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I don't blame them for parking there, although they shouldn't park there. Cities should have more car garages where you can park your car, not in the way of a fire hydrant. Parking is a big issue in the city these days.

Parking is a huge issue all over the place where there's any built up areas. The problem is the tax base cannot support building these garages using public funds, thus new buildings must be required to provide a requisite number of spaces, most of the time based on their impact. There are many examples of publicly funded parking garages that end up killing the municipal budget. Maybe ensuring the price of the ticket got these people's attention would prevent they're taking a gamble parking in front of a hydrant?

[10512 214]

If there were more parking this wouldn't be an issue.

It has very little to do with parking.

The issue that is more important to most people is convenience.

With that, add a dose of self importance.

I have been dealing with people for the past 33 years. One thing I learned long ago was that anything a member of the public is doing, is exponentially

more important, and more immediate, than anything us mere public servants can possibly be doing.

God forbid anyone would have to walk an extra block, or circle the block once more....

Edited November 17, 2014 by 10512

[Danger 160]

And that elbow on the front bumper is a giant waste. Adds $40,000 - &60,000 to the cost (plus additional maintenance costs), the friction loss to get from the front bumper to the pump is equal to 112+ feet of hose (to travel 15 feet) and it reduces the flow by up to 30%. In other words why buy a 1,500gpm pump when you plan to cap its supply at 1,000gpm?

This is a misleading statement that really annoys me because people who don't understand it ( i know you do) regurgitate it. No, if you are supplying your 3000gpm rearmount aerial with two monitors, you should not use the front intake. But at many of our bread and butter fires we're flowing one or two 1.75"s at 185 each and maybe a 2.5" at 325gpm. In other words, that 1000gpm cap will be fine. The front intake has a soft suction preconnected, it's fast and good for tight streets.

[antiquefirelt 994]

And that elbow on the front bumper is a giant waste. Adds $40,000 - &60,000 to the cost (plus additional maintenance costs), the friction loss to get from the front bumper to the pump is equal to 112+ feet of hose (to travel 15 feet) and it reduces the flow by up to 30%. In other words why buy a 1,500gpm pump when you plan to cap its supply at 1,000gpm?

I've wondered why those who want/require front suction lines don't go back to the straight in inlets eliminating two 90 degree elbows from the very beginning? With this connection recessed in it could be substantially protected and likely have better results. Maybe not quite as easy without a swivel, but again, increasing the potential while allowing for pre-connected front suction?

[mustang22_2002 21]

EmsFirePolice .....You have got to be one of the dumbest people on this site to make a comment like that . You obviously are in a dept. where there is not alot of fires and issues like this . When you work in a big city where this is an issue , maybe you'll understand. And trying to blame the city for not enough parking ?? Come on !!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is a misleading statement that really annoys me because people who don't understand it ( i know you do) regurgitate it. No, if you are supplying your 3000gpm rearmount aerial with two monitors, you should not use the front intake. But at many of our bread and butter fires we're flowing one or two 1.75"s at 185 each and maybe a 2.5" at 325gpm. In other words, that 1000gpm cap will be fine. The front intake has a soft suction preconnected, it's fast and good for tight streets.

Yes supplying a couple of hand lines is not a problem. But once you have hooked up with that front suction, very few depts. will redo it later in the fire when the hand lines did not work and they go to defensive operations, (and often claim "bad Hydrants did not help). I see a lot of depts. that have the front swivel have very pretty painted steamer caps on the side and are not even set up to bring water into the pump through the steamer (without hard suction).

When we hook to a hydrant we use 5" LDH, even if we only need 1 or 2 lines, because later on we might need all of it.

Its only good for tight streets if the MPO keeps it in tight. I have taken a number of pics of depts. that that 1st engine blocked out the tower because of the front suction (then you don't need to supply it).

[SageVigiles 1,194]

1. I am not dumb and 2. I am trying to make a point. Apparently some people don't get the point I am trying to say, dumbo. These hydrants are usually un-noticed by citizens. Better markage (like a no psrking sign painted on the street) would be useful. Many people in our world don't realize that this is a problem. This should be spread out more.

Please explain to me how the individuals in either of those photos could have gone without noticing the hydrants.

In the first photo, the driver had to parallel park. Either the driver closed his/her eyes and relied on divine intervention to guide their car in reverse, or he/she saw the hydrant in the rear view mirror while backing up.

In the second photo, the driver is parked JUST far enough forward that the driver's side door won't hit the hydrant when it is opened. I suppose that was simply a stroke of good luck?

Stop making excuses. People don't care because they are lazy and self important.

Edited November 17, 2014 by SageVigiles

[Bnechis 3,961]

In NYC, the FDNY rarely gets to do this, because the traffic units will have it on the hook and off to the yard, long before the FD gets a call.

[dwcfireman 656]

That is a front bumper mount, it will not fit on a hydrant. If you want to put a 90 degree elbow on the hydrant it is doable, but more s*** to unload when you stop at the hydrant. Why not use the side outlet?

Sorry, Barry. I don't think I was quite clear enough from the get-go. I understand that the pic is a front bumper mount, and I just used it as an example of an elbow to place the idea of a 90 degree hydrant gate (and Google wasn't helpful at 1am lol).

And, yes, it would be one more thing to unload at the hydrant, but wouldn't it make more sense to just grab it when you need it, rather than every time you hit the hydrant?

And I really don't understand why more departments don't use the side outlets. My hometown department puts a gate/valve on all 3 outlets when they make a hydrant. It takes an extra 30 seconds, but the valves are all there if you need them later.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And, yes, it would be one more thing to unload at the hydrant, but wouldn't it make more sense to just grab it when you need it, rather than every time you hit the hydrant?

That either slows the rig down from starting its attack or makes the hydrant man walk back to the rig when he realizes he forgot it. Easier to just carry a simple reducer so you can go off the 2.5"

[antiquefirelt 994]

This isn't the first place or time this discussion has come up (side port vs. kinked line or extraordinary effort) and it always seems that many have some aversion to using the 2.5" port? While we all understand that the large port offers the best flow, it seems that many equate the 2.5" port with the flow restrictions of a 2.5" line when it's not at all the case. You can use the lower coefficient of .7 to .9 vs. the .9-.99 for a smoothbore tip to figure out the ports capacity. With around 50 psi you can easily flow in the 1000 gpm range, again likely much better than a hard kinked LDH.

[M' Ave 1,466]

1. I am not dumb and 2. I am trying to make a point. Apparently some people don't get the point I am trying to say, dumbo. These hydrants are usually un-noticed by citizens. Better markage (like a no psrking sign painted on the street) would be useful. Many people in our world don't realize that this is a problem. This should be spread out more.

Kid, are you old enough to drive yet?

300 lbs of iron sticking out of the ground isn't enough? Gimme a break.....

[M' Ave 1,466]

That is a front bumper mount, it will not fit on a hydrant. If you want to put a 90 degree elbow on the hydrant it is doable, but more shit to unload when you stop at the hydrant. Why not use the side outlet?

And that elbow on the front bumper is a giant waste. Adds $40,000 - &60,000 to the cost (plus additional maintenance costs), the friction loss to get from the front bumper to the pump is equal to 112+ feet of hose (to travel 15 feet) and it reduces the flow by up to 30%. In other words why buy a 1,500gpm pump when you plan to cap its supply at 1,000gpm?

Final issue with the front swivel is that without very good driver discipline, I have seen many cases where the driver will nose into the hydrant, this causes the tail end to push out into the street. Thus blocking other apparatus, including the truck.

I agree, partially. It can lead to some poor behavior, but it can also provide some additional flexibility. All our new engines (since 2008) have had a swivel mounted intake on the front/officers side. If the street is REALLY tight, you can pull up perpendicular to the stree, up on the sidewalk and out of the Trucks way. Sometimes the hydrant is installed backwards(often in fact) with the 4-1/2" facing away from the street! The swivel can help.

[BFD389RET 112]

Please explain to me how the individuals in either of those photos could have gone without noticing the hydrants.

In the first photo, the driver had to parallel park. Either the driver closed his/her eyes and relied on divine intervention to guide their car in reverse, or he/she saw the hydrant in the rear view mirror while backing up.

In the second photo, the driver is parked JUST far enough forward that the driver's side door won't hit the hydrant when it is opened. I suppose that was simply a stroke of good luck?

Stop making excuses. People don't care because they are lazy and self important.

THis reminds me of the Philly Parking wars show , when the young dude that Looked like the Jersey shore Moron with the hair jell was hitting on the Young college girl he had ticketed for Blocking the hydrant SHE actually could not open the door hadda climb in the window .....

hahaha

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree, partially. It can lead to some poor behavior, but it can also provide some additional flexibility. All our new engines (since 2008) have had a swivel mounted intake on the front/officers side. If the street is REALLY tight, you can pull up perpendicular to the stree, up on the sidewalk and out of the Trucks way. Sometimes the hydrant is installed backwards(often in fact) with the 4-1/2" facing away from the street! The swivel can help.

Yes it can lead to more flexibility, but most depts. do not operate as FDNY does. You have greater supervision (imagine actually having a trained officer on every engine), your rigs are set up so the do not rely on the front intake (flexibility that as I mentioned some depts. cant use the side intakes) and tend to not max out your pump capacity (because you use more pumps at an incident than most).

[thebreeze 194]

In NYC, the FDNY rarely gets to do this, because the traffic units will have it on the hook and off to the yard, long before the FD gets a call.

This is true in Manhattan, not quite as standard in the outer boroughs though.

[JackEMT 77]

Interesting discussion as to why the LDH was connected. I am not a trained FF nor a BFD member, but maybe SOP in hopes that the car can be towed in short order if that plug needs to be used as a secondary source?

Driver of the BMW comes forward: http://www.whdh.com/story/27410452/bmw-owner-says-hes-sorry-for-blocking-south-end-fire-hydrant

[M' Ave 1,466]

You have greater supervision (imagine actually having a trained officer on every engine

Barry, you're not suggesting that the Lt., who spent his whole career in a Truck, supervises the MPO are ya......what does he know?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry, you're not suggesting that the Lt., who spent his whole career in a Truck, supervises the MPO are ya......what does he know?

No I was implying that many depts. do not even have an officer on the rig