How to make room for your Engine at a fire.

[BIGRED1 71]

Here is a video of a engine chauffeur arriving at a high rise fire scene. Some police have parked in the street up front and he needs to get through. You can imagine what happend next. Now what is everyones feeling on this? You can see that there is a PO right there who could have moved the car but this guys just goes for it anyway.

[dwcfireman 656]

It's a two way street (not the one in the video), fire trucks don't park in front of a house being burlarized, and police shouldn't be parked in front of a fire. Sometimes you have to do a little damage to get the job done. I recall a fire upstate where a fire broke out in a house literally 3 doors down from the firedepartment/police department building. A rookie police officer left his cruiser in front of one of the fire bays (and ran towards the fire!), and the driver of that first due engine just pushed the cruiser SIDEWAYS across the street. Was it the right thing to do? It probably wasn't the best judgement call, but given the situation I would do the same thing. After all, there's a reason the insurance companies exist.

However, since the officer in the video happened to be right there he could have just moved the car.

[RES24CUE 168]

It's a two way street (not the one in the video), fire trucks don't park in front of a house being burlarized, and police shouldn't be parked in front of a fire. Sometimes you have to do a little damage to get the job done. I recall a fire upstate where a fire broke out in a house literally 3 doors down from the firedepartment/police department building. A rookie police officer left his cruiser in front of one of the fire bays (and ran towards the fire!), and the driver of that first due engine just pushed the cruiser SIDEWAYS across the street. Was it the right thing to do? It probably wasn't the best judgement call, but given the situation I would do the same thing. After all, there's a reason the insurance companies exist.

However, since the officer in the video happened to be right there he could have just moved the car.

I am generally unopposed to Monday Morning Quarterbacking. However, on this one I am hesitant. I do not know the whole story here, the assignment for that piece of apparatus, what the engine driver was trying to accomplish, or most importantly, where that rig went after the video ended. I hate the bullish mentality that many firefighters develop these days..."we are the fire department and we can do whatever we want." It is my belief that there a lot of overzealous idiots in this business who think its "cool" to force a door for an automatic alarm, break every window in the house for an incipient burn in a rubbish can, or push someone's car out of the way because they want their engine 10 feet closer to the fire. That said, I have 2 opinions on the mater:

The first opinion is that the engine doesn't belong in front of that fire to begin with! The only thing that would be achieved in this instance would be that the engine would block needed access for a ladder truck that should occupy the flanking position on the corner of that building. After all, we can always add more lengths of hose, but we can't add another fly to the ladder. That engine should be parked out of the way somewhere down the street and the amount of hose needed should be pulled to the fire building.

The second opinion that I have here is that I do not know the specific assignment of that engine and therefore cannot say that pushing those cop cars out of the way wasn't justified. If there were guys screaming for water and that engine was assigned to hit the plug, then maybe it was urgent that they squeeze by to get water to the attack engine. If there were people hanging out of windows and the ladder truck was behind them, maybe they needed to get out of its way. I don't know??? But I don't think that waiting 30 seconds for the cop to move his car would have made much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

My strongest opinion on the matter is that there are plenty of young and impressionable firefighters who read this blog who should take the actions demonstrated in this video with a grain of salt. There are many potential negative outcomes of performing a risky maneuver like the one in this video:

1. The two cars being pushed could have turned sideways and completely blocked the engine's access to the fire.

2. The car being pushed could have struck the engine's tire, flattening it, and leaving the engine unable to reach its destination.

3. The cars could have jumped the curb and taken out an unseen hydrant compromising the water source needed for the fire.

4. The actions of the driver could cause "bad blood" between the fire department and police department resulting in endless headaches during future operations.

As the previous post stated, "sometimes we have to do a little damage to get the job done." BUT DON'T GO LOOKING FOR IT! This should be viewed as an unfortunate event that should be avoided at all costs and not a great opportunity. There are far too many people (morons) in this industry who will think that this video "awesome." So I don't think that we should be cheerleaders here to feed those with an overly aggressive mentality.

[bull56 22]

Sure

[dwcfireman 656]

My strongest opinion on the matter is that there are plenty of young and impressionable firefighters who read this blog who should take the actions demonstrated in this video with a grain of salt. There are many potential negative outcomes of performing a risky maneuver like the one in this video:

As the previous post stated, "sometimes we have to do a little damage to get the job done." BUT DON'T GO LOOKING FOR IT! This should be viewed as an unfortunate event that should be avoided at all costs and not a great opportunity. There are far too many people (morons) in this industry who will think that this video "awesome." So I don't think that we should be cheerleaders here to feed those with an overly aggressive mentality.

I fully agree with you, RES24CUE, I should clarify from my original statement that I don't condone this type of behavior. However, given certain, and unfortunate, circumstances you have to find a way to get the job done (i.e. breaking the windows of the car blocking the hydrant to get the 5" connected). I'll bring it to your point of "DON'T GO LOOKING FOR IT!" There's a time and place where you would have to cause the undue damage, but, in my opinion, has to be a last possible option or you really need to save those 30 seconds to keep that rescue from becoming a recovery.

And, yes, videos like this do leave an unjust impression on the youth in the fire service. It's so easy to get lost in the moment and make a snap decision that can later become a mistake. Unfortunately for us, we're being watched all the time by the public, and almost always being recorded on a cell phone camera. That's when our little mistakes become huge issues for the department. It's best that we take these videos and put them to good use in the classroom. This video in particular is great for a driver training class, and can really drum up a good discussion around the table.

[capt2102 64]

^{This was a great judgment call by the officer. All the driver did was gently push the cars out of the way. He didn't slam into them. Heavy fire on the top floor of an 8 or 9 story bldg., no evidence of water on the fire (no white smoke). Great job by the MPO. That's why they put big front bumpers on fire engines.}

[thebreeze 194]

The police officer didn't appear to be all that concerned, you can't be certain he even had the keys to move those THREE police vehicles blocking the block. This wasn't overly aggressive, he didn't smash through the cop cars at speed causing any serious damage or potential for major catastrophe, he moved them until he had enough room to get by and squeezed through. He even had his guys out of the rig spotting him as he went through. I don't think he did anything particularly terrible, stopping where he was on a tight block like that, before the fire building, isn't exactly the ideal spot for an engine. He would have further blocked out any other apparatus, particularly ladders who should be in front of the building. None of us know all the facts, but this isn't exactly a video to freak out about, sometimes you need to pull a maneuver like this, should you be trying to smash into a police car on every run? No, of course not, should the police be a little more cognizant of their vehicle positioning at a fire? Quite probably. I don't think this guy made a mistake or had bad judgement, I don't think it was the oh the fire department can do no wrong mentality either. He decided pushing those cars and doing some damage was worth the reward of getting himself into position, it looks like it worked out just fine.

[on the job 68]

Good for the chauffeur...I wish I was driving. Seeing that fire on arrival, minutes count... I cant stand cops that need to park so close... its happened to me many of times.

We block the road ...the cops want to arrest us.

[bad box 371]

The only bad judgement that I see in the video is that of the folks who chose to park their vehicles in a manner which obstructed the fire department from having immediate access to the fire scene. Seconds count when a fire is burning (growing) presenting an ever worsening threat to occupants who may be trapped as well as firefighters who must enter harm's way to perform search, rescue and extinguishment duties. The people who delayed the fire department are the very same people who are supposed to insure that the firefighters have unfettered access to the scene. It's amazing that such a simple concept as staying out of the way and granting total and immediate access for fire apparatus to fire scenes still proves to be an enigma for many (not all) in law enforcement.

[M' Ave 1,466]

In the city, I've found that cops have been more careful about parking in the vicinity of the fire building, lately. I recall having more issue a few years ago. Perhaps training and awareness has improved. Something seems to have worked.

I completely agree about being wary of this, "cowboy" mentality and the attitude of, "doing no wrong" in the pursuit of the job. Some guys really want to be the engine chauffeur who puts the supply line through the car windows. In this case, I'd say the chauffeur did a pretty good job. He made a careful and calculated maneuver to get through a tight spot. He pulled up, gently pushed the cars outta the way and then proceeded past. He almost made it, apart from the Bimmers bumper.....but, stuff happens....

I'd call this a successful example of how to professionally improvise.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In the city, I've found that cops have been more careful about parking in the vicinity of the fire building, lately. I recall having more issue a few years ago. Perhaps training and awareness has improved. Something seems to have worked.

I would say awareness has improved

[M' Ave 1,466]

On those photos......

I remember this, that's Washington Heights. I can't remember if it was 45 Truck or 23 Truck. You have to lay some blame on the Truck Chauffeur, of course, however I believe that the RMP parked there after the Tower Ladder. I'm pretty sure that the coast was clear when the LCC first checked, but I'll take some help here from someone better in the know.

[thebreeze 194]

Spoke to that LCC shortly after the incident, he did in fact look down that side, made sure it was clear, ran back and started lowering and the RMP squeezed in and parked there at just the right time, for all the wrong reasons.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Spoke to that LCC shortly after the incident, he did in fact look down that side, made sure it was clear, ran back and started lowering and the RMP squeezed in and parked there at just the right time, for all the wrong reasons.

That's what I remember hearing.....not surprised really! Considering ya gotta walk back around the rig and those tormentors are Sooo slow......plenty of time for the RMP to slip in there.

[wraftery 1,275]

^{This was a great judgment call by the officer. All the driver did was gently push the cars out of the way. He didn't slam into them. Heavy fire on the top floor of an 8 or 9 story bldg., no evidence of water on the fire (no white smoke). Great job by the MPO. That's why they put big front bumpers on fire engines.}

It looks to me like the spot the MPO cleared was not for the engine but for the ladder. Look at the spot he cleared. Was he thinking "Truck gets the front of the building?" That A/D corner is right where the truck should be spotted to cover two sides of the building. Also as capt2102 said, heavy fire on the roof of a 9 story building with no water on the fire. It could be a roofing materials fire except that I think I heard a Sprinkler Gong ringing in the background. That means that there is fire below what you can see in the video. This is at least a 2-alarm fire, maybe a third. Do you think maybe the engine was leaving room for at least two trucks?

[huzzie59 75]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/22/montreal-fire-truck-hits-cop-cruisers-bmw-to-get-to-blaze

http://www.sconfire.com/2014/09/25/engine-pushes-parked-police-cars-parked-cars-blocking-access-building-fire-montreal/

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/23/12/26/canadian-fire-truck-pushes-police-cars-out-of-its-way-to-reach-fire