FDNY Testing Tracking Firefighters With Military-Developed Radio Tags

[x635 4,066]

Pretty neat!

New York City's fire department is experimenting with outfitting its firefighters with $20 radio tags. Think of it as an E-Z Pass for tracking firefighters during the confusion of an emergency.

The new tool is, in some ways, part of the ongoing response to the chaos of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Back then, reports the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory's Space Systems Development Department, which is working on the project, the technology driving the department's ride lists consisted of paper and carbon copies.

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/09/03/nyc-firefighters-are-being-tracked-with-military-developed-radio-tags/

[M' Ave 1,466]

Total waste of money, solving a problem that doesn't exist. All this does is use RFID to identify who's on the rig or at the box. What for? We already know this. Before the start of each tour, the riding list (who's working and in what position) is entered into a computer terminal. This corresponds with the EFAS radio accountability system for the command post and FAST unit. So.....what's this for again?

FYI, we haven't used paper and and carbon in 6 years.

There is an agenda here, one that makes this system very unpopular....but I won't speculate any further on that.....

[goon16 155]

Trying to fix something that isn't broken

We do have the PAC tracker to help find a downed brother or brothers who's pass alarm is in full alert

[M' Ave 1,466]

Trying to fix something that isn't broken

We do have the PAC tracker to help find a downed brother or brothers who's pass alarm is in full alert

Agree completely on your first point. System that isn't broken......

However, the PAC Tracker sucks.....talk about borderline useless.....

[goon16 155]

Yeah your right that's another issue for another day

[msm232 69]

Agree completely on your first point. System that isn't broken......

However, the PAC Tracker sucks.....talk about borderline useless.....

Wow, useless? That system was developed for FDNY by Scott and adds ZERO weight to the SCBA because its integrated in to the PASS electronics. My bet is that formal training on how to use the system effectively was never implemented correctly. I believe there is a Captain assigned to Tactical Training doing PT training. Maybe a refresher is in order.

Stay safe

[thebreeze 194]

Wow, useless? That system was developed for FDNY by Scott and adds ZERO weight to the SCBA because its integrated in to the PASS electronics. My bet is that formal training on how to use the system effectively was never implemented correctly. I believe there is a Captain assigned to Tactical Training doing PT training. Maybe a refresher is in order.

Stay safe

He said borderline useless, and he's right. It's got limited applications with the FDNY. In most situations it takes away a guy from the FAST team while he stares at the readouts on a poorly designed display. If a guy goes down, usually the other companies working will be able to find him quickly, if not, then based on standard protocols you will already know the general area where the guy was, second due irons, check floor above apartment etc. The pak tracker would be most useful in a collapse or maybe a row of taxpayers on fire, other than that it's kind of useless and even might hinder a FAST team that would otherwise already have a good game plan in place. It's another tool that, if guys rely on it instead of their training, will just slow them down and make them ineffective.

The RFID technology in the coats has absolutely zero to do with safety of the members.

Also, the system was developed by Scott, for Scott, to make more money, for Scott, on top of the obscene amount that Scott already charges. The FDNY and one of their Captains is just the lucky recipient for the test run/FDNY buys it so will everyone else ploy

Edited September 5, 2014 by thebreeze

[msm232 69]

He said borderline useless, and he's right. It's got limited applications with the FDNY. In most situations it takes away a guy from the FAST team while he stares at the readouts on a poorly designed display. If a guy goes down, usually the other companies working will be able to find him quickly, if not, then based on standard protocols you will already know the general area where the guy was, second due irons, check floor above apartment etc. The pak tracker would be most useful in a collapse or maybe a row of taxpayers on fire, other than that it's kind of useless and even might hinder a FAST team that would otherwise already have a good game plan in place. It's another tool that, if guys rely on it instead of their training, will just slow them down and make them ineffective.

The RFID technology in the coats has absolutely zero to do with safety of the members.

Also, the system was developed by Scott, for Scott, to make more money, for Scott, on top of the obscene amount that Scott already charges. The FDNY and one of their Captains is just the lucky recipient for the test run/FDNY buys it so will everyone else ploy

Well no, FDNY came to Scott after 9/11 and demanded a system be developed around the electronics of the PASS device. It took 8 years (2010) for FDNY to adopt it and it was a part of the upgrade to the paks and an additional 18 months for them to get the hand held receivers. Long after other major cities had been using this technology. FYI, The training suggests that system could cut the time to finding a downed firefighter by 50% if used properly. A little more then borderline in my opinion.

Stay safe.

[16fire5 693]

Well no, FDNY came to Scott after 9/11 and demanded a system be developed around the electronics of the PASS device. It took 8 years (2010) for FDNY to adopt it and it was a part of the upgrade to the paks and an additional 18 months for them to get the hand held receivers. Long after other major cities had been using this technology. FYI, The training suggests that system could cut the time to finding a downed firefighter by 50% if used properly. A little more then borderline in my opinion.

Stay safe.

We've drilled with it a lot and while it's a tool that could help I think in most cases it's help will be marginal. In a wide open large area like a warehouse it will be of great use. In compartmented residential and commercial structures it does not seem to be of much help.

[M' Ave 1,466]

FYI, The training suggests that system could cut the time to finding a downed firefighter by 50% if used properly. A little more then borderline in my opinion.

Stay safe.

We've been training with this tool for years now. We started when it was first assigned to Rescue Co's, and we've continued to use it in training evolutions, from both In house training and use during MOAD evolutions. It has an extremely rudimentary display, doesn't work well with concrete walls/floors and is little to no help if you're not on an even plane. What training suggests it could cut down search time by 50%? Scott's? I've never heard the number before. Is it a tool? Sure. Is it the first thing the FAST team is reaching for? Probobly not. It's just not that good! What.....do you sell them or something?

But....like you said, I guess we just need some more retraining(rolls eyes)

[msm232 69]

We've been training with this tool for years now. We started when it was first assigned to Rescue Co's, and we've continued to use it in training evolutions, from both In house training and use during MOAD evolutions. It has an extremely rudimentary display, doesn't work well with concrete walls/floors and is little to no help if you're not on an even plane. What training suggests it could cut down search time by 50%? Scott's? I've never heard the number before. Is it a tool? Sure. Is it the first thing the FAST team is reaching for? Probobly not. It's just not that good! What.....do you sell them or something?

But....like you said, I guess we just need some more retraining(rolls eyes)

Lets agree to disagree. Its a tool like anything else. It has its +'s and -'s. and Yes, I am involved with Scott products and NYC.

Stay Safe

[M' Ave 1,466]

Lets agree to disagree. Its a tool like anything else. It has its +'s and -'s. and Yes, I am involved with Scott products and NYC.

Stay Safe

Usually the manufacturer and the end users don't, "agree to disagree". Doesn't help sell products......unless you sell to giant bureaucracies, like say, NYC?

[thebreeze 194]

I've seen this play before, always the same act,

RANK AND FILE MEMBERS: "this really isn't helpful for us in most cases and can actually be a hindrance in some cases"

SUCK UP SCOTT SALESMAN: " oh no it's great, there are studies from.... somewhere, you guys are just doing it wrong, give me more money so we can keep telling you you're doing it wrong."

NYC/SCOTT BUDDY R&D GUY: "OK here's a ton more money for something we aren't really gonna use but we will make sure to put on every truck instead of doing something useful like a fifth man on the engine or a TIC for the engine boss"

RANK AND FILE MEMBERS: (collective sigh)

[msm232 69]

I've seen this play before, always the same act,

RANK AND FILE MEMBERS: "this really isn't helpful for us in most cases and can actually be a hindrance in some cases"

SUCK UP SCOTT SALESMAN: " oh no it's great, there are studies from.... somewhere, you guys are just doing it wrong, give me more money so we can keep telling you you're doing it wrong."

NYC/SCOTT BUDDY R&D GUY: "OK here's a ton more money for something we aren't really gonna use but we will make sure to put on every truck instead of doing something useful like a fifth man on the engine or a TIC for the engine boss"

RANK AND FILE MEMBERS: (collective sigh)

Your right!(roll eyes),I forgot, the rest of the fire service knows nothing, and you guys know everything.

Stay safe.

[x635 4,066]

I've seen this play before, always the same act,

RANK AND FILE MEMBERS: "this really isn't helpful for us in most cases and can actually be a hindrance in some cases"

SUCK UP SCOTT SALESMAN: " oh no it's great, there are studies from.... somewhere, you guys are just doing it wrong, give me more money so we can keep telling you you're doing it wrong."

NYC/SCOTT BUDDY R&D GUY: "OK here's a ton more money for something we aren't really gonna use but we will make sure to put on every truck instead of doing something useful like a fifth man on the engine or a TIC for the engine boss"

RANK AND FILE MEMBERS: (collective sigh)

I don't understand your issue with the Scott salesman and the "suck up" comment? It sounds like you have deeper personal issues with Scott. I've never used the FDNY product myself, but do know something about it's development. I wish I could find the R&D paper wrote on this subject to share.

Scott has a long and successful relationship with FDNY, and has gone above and beyond the assist FDNY in their R&D requests. FDNY specifies what they want and most often does their own studies, and the vendor provides what they need as a result of FDNY study. The Pak-Trackers are something FDNY wanted, and developed especially for FDNY, not something Scott pushed on them. This is also a generational technology, and the more it's used, the more it's refined and improved. It's also a supplemental tool, and one I would think people would at least want available.

It sounds like your issue is with who developed and purchased these in FDNY, and the upper brass, not Scott. Maybe, as mentioned above, it has to do with the testing, implementation, and proper in service training of the technology in the department, and routing of feedback from the end users- which is the departments problem. And if you want something to be easily integrated with you SCBA's, then it has to be Scott for compatibility and service reasons. You wouldn't put Chevy parts in a Ford.

I also remember reading several articles about technology in the fire service, specifically FDNY.....SCBA's were complained about when they first came out...thermal imaging cameras were "useless".......but now they are technologies we can't live without

[thebreeze 194]

Your right!(roll eyes),I forgot, the rest of the fire service knows nothing, and you guys know everything.

Stay safe.

The men tend to know what they need better than anyone, it's a story as old as time. The rest of the fire service doesn't know what the FDNY wants, so I don't take stock in what they or you say. You're trying to tell me how great something is for a job you're not on. I don't walk around telling doctors what drugs to push or mechanics what parts to use. That's a salesmans job. I have no issue with Scott or the mask they provide, I'm also a fan of their FastPak and the improvements they have made to it from feedback, I do however think that the Pak Tracker is nothing more than a gimmicky money maker for Scott. Everyone keeps saying the FDNY asked for it, no, some guy trying to make a name for himself asked for it, there was no poll of the FDNY, same way we get a lot of our garbage we carry, someone not near a fire floor decided what we needed and what would work best and got together with a vendor and shoved it down our throats. You sitting here saying it's great means nothing when the men whose hands it are in say it's useless to them. It's great you guys can take the company line for Scott, I'm gonna take the company line for the men.

[msm232 69]

The men tend to know what they need better than anyone, it's a story as old as time. The rest of the fire service doesn't know what the FDNY wants, so I don't take stock in what they or you say. You're trying to tell me how great something is for a job you're not on. I don't walk around telling doctors what drugs to push or mechanics what parts to use. That's a salesmans job. I have no issue with Scott or the mask they provide, I'm also a fan of their FastPak and the improvements they have made to it from feedback, I do however think that the Pak Tracker is nothing more than a gimmicky money maker for Scott. Everyone keeps saying the FDNY asked for it, no, some guy trying to make a name for himself asked for it, there was no poll of the FDNY, same way we get a lot of our garbage we carry, someone not near a fire floor decided what we needed and what would work best and got together with a vendor and shoved it down our throats. You sitting here saying it's great means nothing when the men whose hands it are in say it's useless to them. It's great you guys can take the company line for Scott, I'm gonna take the company line for the men.

OK, I respect your opinion, Here is what I can tell you about how the Pak Tracker made it to FDNY. This project was in the works before 9/11 by some very well respected members of your department and not R&D. The idea was to put the PT into the PASS electronics and they had requested Scott to do it because it seemed like a logical choice. After 9/11, the program became a priority by your staff chief's because the department had very few options for tracking a downed member. I was at that meeting, and I can tell you, They were not asking Scott to do it... They were demanding it or they would find another manufacturer that would. Is it perfect, NO, but it adds NO WEIGHT to the members SCBA because of its integration to the PASS electronics. If a member gets jammed up and cant hit the mayday button, it will send the signal ie. L30-Chau to the receiver letting someone know there is a problem and that the member may need help. You are never going to please everyone but to say that this did not come at the request of FDNY is just untrue.

Stay safe

[M' Ave 1,466]

I also remember reading several articles about technology in the fire service, specifically FDNY.....SCBA's were complained about when they first came out...thermal imaging cameras were "useless".......but now they are technologies we can't live without

It's quite true that the fire service, and often specifically the FDNY, are resistant to change. I agree completely. Tools ranging from the Mask itself to the TIC were cast aside as unnecessary. Clearly, those tools and a lot of others have proved to be key components of firefighting operations.

Resistance to new technology isn't a forgone conclusion either. Over the last couple of years we've begun using EFAS, the Electronic Firefighter Accountability System. At the start of every tour, each member is put on an electronic riding list that links with our radio I.D.'s. When a member broadcasts, their name, company and riding position are displayed on the MDT screen on any Battalion vehicle. This tech. was immediately embrace by the members. it's highly functional, makes our job easier and dramatically increases operational safety.

I think that the concept of a device that would locate a downed member within the fire building is also something that the members have a very positive opinion of. What's at issue is that the "PacTracker" itself is not very good. This really isn't about who wanted the device vs. who builds it, nor is it an issue of how useful the technology is. I think we can all agree that it's a great idea.

What we have here is the rank and file speaking out (almost unanimously) against the usefulness of this technology in its's current form. On the other hand, someone associated with the maker telling us we're wrong. The right move here, for the builder, is to take the word of the firemen who use the device, say it's lousy, and BUILD A BETTER ONE!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Over the last couple of years we've begun using EFAS, the Electronic Firefighter Accountability System. At the start of every tour, each member is put on an electronic riding list that links with our radio I.D.'s. When a member broadcasts, their name, company and riding position are displayed on the MDT screen on any Battalion vehicle.

Do you adjust the electronic riding list during the tour if personnel changes are made i.e. a member has an early relief or a stand-by etc.?

[M' Ave 1,466]

Do you adjust the electronic riding list during the tour if personnel changes are made i.e. a member has an early relief or a stand-by etc.?

Yes, there is a provision in the system preliminaries when waiting for a detail from another company. Likewise, it is easily updated for early relief. However, the radio ID is associated with a riding position first and the name second. So, even if the name were somehow incorrect, the company and position of the member would be displayed.

[thebreeze 194]

OK, I respect your opinion, Here is what I can tell you about how the Pak Tracker made it to FDNY. This project was in the works before 9/11 by some very well respected members of your department and not R&D. The idea was to put the PT into the PASS electronics and they had requested Scott to do it because it seemed like a logical choice. After 9/11, the program became a priority by your staff chief's because the department had very few options for tracking a downed member. I was at that meeting, and I can tell you, They were not asking Scott to do it... They were demanding it or they would find another manufacturer that would. Is it perfect, NO, but it adds NO WEIGHT to the members SCBA because of its integration to the PASS electronics. If a member gets jammed up and cant hit the mayday button, it will send the signal ie. L30-Chau to the receiver letting someone know there is a problem and that the member may need help. You are never going to please everyone but to say that this did not come at the request of FDNY is just untrue.

Stay safe

The problem here is us disagreeing on who exactly the "FDNY" is, telling me some high ranking brass members demanded this and that this therefore means it's what the FDNY wants isn't accurate in my eyes. Thousands of firemen didn't call up demanding the Pak Tracker be developed, nor were they petitioning the Staff Chiefs for it. There are plenty of other things the rank and file members of the FDNY want, some that we get, some that we don't. I don't care that the Pak-Tracker adds zero weight, because for the most part it adds zero functionality as well. I think in most cases it just ties up another guy from the FAST Truck who gets stuck staring at a poorly designed display, and when he might be needed is stuck trying to follow this tool, that is spotty in many of our buildings at best, instead of using his brain to try and figure out where the guy actually may have been based on our operations. I think the EFAS is great for this, as it immediately lets the FAST Team know who gave the mayday and what position they have, that gets you halfway there, the Pak-Tracker is going to slow you down trying to make your way to the guy. I think it does have its place, like I said, in collapse situations, large area searches, or maybe rows of taxpayers. For this simply having one in every Battalion vehicle will suffice, I think sticking one on every truck was just a profit move for Scott coordinated with someone on the FDNY staff.

One more aside, you say this was in development before 9/11, and that after 9/11 Scott was asked to make it a priority, so basically almost fifteen years has gone by and this is really what they gave us? Fifteen years and we have a bare bones version of a tool that is hard to use, not liked by the members who are supposed to use it, and doesn't really increase our operational safety. That's just ridiculous to me, we waited that long for this, and if they actually decide to listen to the men for once, then it will be in the trash in two years replaced by a newer improved more expensive model, that we will then buy a few hundred more of. Fifteen years and we didn't get what was wanted or needed. That's not a great way to run a business. I will say again, I love the mask Scott makes, but this is a joke if that's the best you can do in fifteen years.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Yes, there is a provision in the system preliminaries when waiting for a detail from another company. Likewise, it is easily updated for early relief. However, the radio ID is associated with a riding position first and the name second. So, even if the name were somehow incorrect, the company and position of the member would be displayed.

Thanks.

I am very familiar with EFAS as New Rochelle FD also has it. And while SDI (the company that developed it, not the Navel Research Lab which they work for) developed EFAS, the EBF4 (electronic ride list) and the RFID system which is still in the testing phase with about a dozen FDNY companies. Our work with them has been a little different. We have EFAS, but the EBF4 was designed to work for FDNY and by design would be too costly to modify for any other dept. So with SDI, NRFD helped them develop EasyStaff which is a cloud based electronic riding list that is easy to customize, is designed to work with any size department from single station to multiple battalions and multiple divisions. Since it is cloud based we can make changes to the riding list from any device with internet access. It is also simple enough that we expect that a member who comes in on an early relief can change it at the watch desk without having to wake the officer. We decided right from the start that we had no need for the RFID technology. While the riding position and radio assignment are most critical in a smaller dept. knowing the members names becomes more important. An additional component in EasyStaff is the SCBA assigned is also tracked. Thus when low air or pass alarm goes off, we also know who it is (which is similar to the pak traker function, but we get more info to the CP).

With EasyStaff we can also see the members assigned in other departments when they come up in EFAS (if they have EasyStaff). Because it is a different source than the EBF4 when FDNY radio's come up on our EFAS (and our radios in FDNY EFAS) you only get the 7 digital code, which if you know the key, you know the assignment (i.e. 5005401 would be FDNY Engine 54 officer).

Total waste of money, solving a problem that doesn't exist. All this does is use RFID to identify who's on the rig or at the box. What for? We already know this. Before the start of each tour, the riding list (who's working and in what position) is entered into a computer terminal. This corresponds with the EFAS radio accountability system for the command post and FAST unit. So.....what's this for again?

There is an agenda here, one that makes this system very unpopular....but I won't speculate any further on that.....

What I have heard from both high ranking FDNY and SDI is this all came from the off duty guys joining the rig on 9/11. The concept was if you get on the rig we know you are there, even if not on the EBF4 or even if you have no radio. The biggest problem is what if you take someone else's coat?

Did it solve a problem, don't know. Will it be implemented city wide, 50-50 bet on that now.

Another agenda, could be, but the original intent had no other agenda.

From a development standpoint, the system is very promising as the way to by-pass EasyStaff or EBF4 for volunteer FD's where members show up in POV's and at different times.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Thanks.

I am very familiar with EFAS as New Rochelle FD also has it. And while SDI (the company that developed it, not the Navel Research Lab which they work for) developed EFAS, the EBF4 (electronic ride list) and the RFID system which is still in the testing phase with about a dozen FDNY companies. Our work with them has been a little different. We have EFAS, but the EBF4 was designed to work for FDNY and by design would be too costly to modify for any other dept. So with SDI, NRFD helped them develop EasyStaff which is a cloud based electronic riding list that is easy to customize, is designed to work with any size department from single station to multiple battalions and multiple divisions. Since it is cloud based we can make changes to the riding list from any device with internet access. It is also simple enough that we expect that a member who comes in on an early relief can change it at the watch desk without having to wake the officer. We decided right from the start that we had no need for the RFID technology. While the riding position and radio assignment are most critical in a smaller dept. knowing the members names becomes more important. An additional component in EasyStaff is the SCBA assigned is also tracked. Thus when low air or pass alarm goes off, we also know who it is (which is similar to the pak traker function, but we get more info to the CP).

With EasyStaff we can also see the members assigned in other departments when they come up in EFAS (if they have EasyStaff). Because it is a different source than the EBF4 when FDNY radio's come up on our EFAS (and our radios in FDNY EFAS) you only get the 7 digital code, which if you know the key, you know the assignment (i.e. 5005401 would be FDNY Engine 54

Interesting, thanks for the background. I didn't know that you guys were using EFAS as well. It's an awesome system, worked great everytime I've manned it when FAST Truck. That 7 digit code (as I'm sure you know) was all we used to get on the old FAST radio.

I also agree, that RFID system would be excellent for a volunteer outfit. As for the motivations behind our use......nefarious at best.....

[Bnechis 3,961]

The problem here is us disagreeing on who exactly the "FDNY" is, telling me some high ranking brass members demanded this and that this therefore means it's what the FDNY wants isn't accurate in my eyes. Thousands of firemen didn't call up demanding the Pak Tracker be developed, nor were they petitioning the Staff Chiefs for it. There are plenty of other things the rank and file members of the FDNY want, some that we get, some that we don't.

Interesting view. So lets see how an FD functions in a democratic society:

Chief of Dept gets 1 vote and he wants all new engines to be painted pink with orange and purple poke-a-dots

Union has 11,000 votes and wants red engines.

In most cases the chief will win this vote, unless the union has the political clout to get the chief fired.

If the brass wants it, they get it and in many cases they do not ask the rank and file.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Interesting, thanks for the background. I didn't know that you guys were using EFAS as well. It's an awesome system, worked great everytime I've manned it when FAST Truck. That 7 digit code (as I'm sure you know) was all we used to get on the old FAST radio.

We have been working with our neighbors and I believe that they will also be on board in the near future

When we 1st set it up we used the FDNY 7 digit code (as we had not developed our own). At one of the FDNY/Westchester Drills our EFAS Board & FDNY's were set up side by side and the FDNY guys were very confused because they kept seeing FDNY Engine 22 and Ladder 12 radios at the drill, but those FDNY rigs were still in Manhattan and to far to transmit to EFAS. A few days after the drill we figured out it was NRFD Engine 22 and Ladder 12 radios in the FDNY board.

We also receive all FDNY Maydays on EFAS

Since then we came up with a numbering system that will work for all Westchester FD's and not mimic FDNYs #'s

[M' Ave 1,466]

In

If the brass wants it, they get it and in many cases they do not ask the rank and file.

Trouble is lately, the brass feels awfully removed from the rank and file.

[thebreeze 194]

Interesting view. So lets see how an FD functions in a democratic society:

Chief of Dept gets 1 vote and he wants all new engines to be painted pink with orange and purple poke-a-dots

Union has 11,000 votes and wants red engines.

In most cases the chief will win this vote, unless the union has the political clout to get the chief fired.

If the brass wants it, they get it and in many cases they do not ask the rank and file.

I agree with your analysis of the way it's going to go when its the men vs. Chief. All I am trying to say is for people to stop saying "this is what the FDNY wanted", when its not in fact a true interpretation of the the desire of the job as a whole. Just a few staff chiefs out of touch with what's really going on and what's needed. If you want to know what the members actually need and want, maybe ask them, maybe go to a few random firehouses and ask guys what they would like to be able to better get there job done. I'm not talking about R&D either, or SOC companies, or the Rock, just regular guys getting on the engine and truck everyday, the actual end users for your product. I am positive the Pak-Tracker would be extremely low on every wishlist if it was on there at all. In terms of increasing everyone's safety I think the top of every guy's list would be getting back the fifth man in the engine, instead of trying to just keep adding gadgets to carry, but hey, that's a whole other story.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In terms of increasing everyone's safety I think the top of every guy's list would be getting back the fifth man in the engine, instead of trying to just keep adding gadgets to carry, but hey, that's a whole other story.

The problem is each engines 5th man costs about $650,000 to cover 24/7/365 and they spent $2,000 on each gadget.

[thebreeze 194]

The problem is each engines 5th man costs about $650,000 to cover 24/7/365 and they spent $2,000 on each gadget.

I'm aware of the extreme difference in cost, what I worry about is the impact on safety each measure has. One practically negligible, and one invaluable. I know that it's not realistic in the world today, but I don't believe you can put a price on the safety of the members. Obviously city hall and governments across the country feel differently. The voters don't care because they don't see an upfront result for themselves, but they all sure like those million new trees being planted, at least for the few months they're alive before they wither and die from neglect. Then they just come plant three more on the other side of the street.