Peekskill Fire Protection Jeopardized By EMS?

[N1Medic 69]

How does fire protection in Peekskill work?

I listen to them on the radio while at work. This seems to happen very often. Rescue 134 is on an EMS assist, 39M1 is on a call, so Engine 131 is out of service. 39M2 is out on a call, so Engine 130 is out of service. Engine 132 is often browned out. So this leaves only Engine 133 and Tower Ladder 45 for fire protection in Peekskill when EMS is busy?

Why doesn't Peekskill Fire and Peekskill VAC merge and Peekskill FD operate two ALS ambulances? Peekskill VAC often has trouble getting out , and the medic often has to ride in BLS calls, taking fire apparatus out of service even more unnecessarily? Someone told me ambulances for the FD were actually in the PFD budget a few years back.

[Morningjoe 162]

It's all about the Benjamin's, baby

[huzzie59 75]

I know nothing about Peekskill and the first paragraph is very confusing.

[Ladder44 73]

I know nothing about Peekskill and the first paragraph is very confusing.

Sounds like the engine crews cross staff the ambulances.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Sounds like the engine crews cross staff the ambulances.

To clear some of this up....

Some of Peekskills career FF's are paramedics. There are fly-cars stationed with E130 and E131. When the FF/Medic goes on a Medic call, they respond in their fly car, thus placing the respective Engine out of service.

[10512 214]

This probably looks great on paper to bean counters and politicians.

But what will they say when something "bad" happens at the wrong time and half your FD is tied up on ambulance calls?

What will they say when reality happens.

[dave0820 50]

This probably looks great on paper to bean counters and politicians.

But what will they say when something "bad" happens at the wrong time and half your FD is tied up on ambulance calls?

What will they say when reality happens.

Peekskill is a ticking time bomb

[N1Medic 69]

Do the Fire Medics stay in the City Of Peekskill, or do they cover the entire Cortlandt territory as well? Do Peekskill taxpayers know that they are paying for ALS for other communities?

So the Medic ride in BLS calls? A fire comes in, or someone is having a legitimate MI, and that firefighter/medic is stuck doing a BLS transport because the VAC couldn't get an ambulance out? What happens to that person who is trapped in a fire, or having an MI?

And the department's only Rescue truck goes on just about all EMS calls for an EMS assist. What happens if there's a bad wreck on 9, and they need the jaws. Plus, since it covers the entire city for BLS assists, will this truck get the most wear and tear?

[Viper 139]

I know it's off topic, but I always see Rescue 134 in the bay leaning toward the right. Is there a reason for this?

Sorry for the crappy cell phone shot

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Do the Fire Medics stay in the City Of Peekskill, or do they cover the entire Cortlandt territory as well? Do Peekskill taxpayers know that they are paying for ALS for other communities?

So the Medic ride in BLS calls? A fire comes in, or someone is having a legitimate MI, and that firefighter/medic is stuck doing a BLS transport because the VAC couldn't get an ambulance out? What happens to that person who is trapped in a fire, or having an MI?

And the department's only Rescue truck goes on just about all EMS calls for an EMS assist. What happens if there's a bad wreck on 9, and they need the jaws. Plus, since it covers the entire city for BLS assists, will this truck get the most wear and tear?

As I understood it, and this may have changed some, the City of Peekskill, Town of Cortlandt, and Village of Buchanan all contribute to support the ALS program and it is a regional approach. So Peekskill taxpayers should know (if they bother to become educated/informed) that they are part of a regional system.

If a medic is tied up on a BLS call, another medic from the system or mutual aid would handle a subsequent call. That's nothing new or unique.

[FF398 45]

I know it's off topic, but I always see Rescue 134 in the bay leaning toward the right. Is there a reason for this?

Sorry for the crappy cell phone shot

crappy.jpg

It's probably like that so water in the bays run directly to a drain. Now, back to the original topic lol.

Edited August 4, 2014 by FF398

[FF402 133]

I know it's off topic, but I always see Rescue 134 in the bay leaning toward the right. Is there a reason for this?

There is an ongoing problem with the air suspension system. Once the rig is started the problem goes away. Engine 130 sits in the bay next door and doesn't lean at all.

[FirNaTine 370]

This probably looks great on paper to bean counters and politicians.

But what will they say when something "bad" happens at the wrong time and half your FD is tied up on ambulance calls?

What will they say when reality happens.

They will say fires are down and to keep your Job we needed productivity out of you guys! So be an ambulance chaser now!

[N1Medic 69]

As I understood it, and this may have changed some, the City of Peekskill, Town of Cortlandt, and Village of Buchanan all contribute to support the ALS program and it is a regional approach. So Peekskill taxpayers should know (if they bother to become educated/informed) that they are part of a regional system.

If a medic is tied up on a BLS call, another medic from the system or mutual aid would handle a subsequent call. That's nothing new or unique.

I understand that part obviously. But it's not as simple as you put it.

For example, let's say Engine 134 was on an EMS assist at the Beach Shopping Center and Engine 131 was out of service because that firefighter was on an ALS call in Mohegan.

During this time, a structure fire with entrapment on Welcher Ave came in (the opposite end of the city). How would the Peekskill Fire Chief explain that the closest fire engine (Engine 130) was out of service because they weren't out on an ALS call, but riding in a BLS call because the VAC couldn't get anything but a driver.

Who will be to blame when that time comes?

[dave0820 50]

I understand that part obviously. But it's not as simple as you put it.

For example, let's say Engine 134 was on an EMS assist at the Beach Shopping Center and Engine 131 was out of service because that firefighter was on an ALS call in Mohegan.

During this time, a structure fire with entrapment on Welcher Ave came in (the opposite end of the city). How would the Peekskill Fire Chief explain that the closest fire engine (Engine 130) was out of service because they weren't out on an ALS call, but riding in a BLS call because the VAC couldn't get anything but a driver.

Who will be to blame when that time comes?

I'll say it again, Peekskill is a ticking time bomb.

[N1Medic 69]

I'll say it again, Peekskill is a ticking time bomb.

But what is being done to de-fuse the bomb?

[99subi 121]

But what is being done to de-fuse the bomb?

Nothing. You know better than to ask a question like this. I mean cmon its Westchester.

[16fire5 693]

Forgive my ignorance but why is a paramedic riding BLS calls? Does Peekskill EMS utilize paid staff?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Forgive my ignorance but why is a paramedic riding BLS calls? Does Peekskill EMS utilize paid staff?

This is happening all over Westchester. Flycar medics are transporting BLS calls because local agencies can not or will not provide minimum staffing.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I understand that part obviously. But it's not as simple as you put it.

For example, let's say Engine 134 was on an EMS assist at the Beach Shopping Center and Engine 131 was out of service because that firefighter was on an ALS call in Mohegan.

During this time, a structure fire with entrapment on Welcher Ave came in (the opposite end of the city). How would the Peekskill Fire Chief explain that the closest fire engine (Engine 130) was out of service because they weren't out on an ALS call, but riding in a BLS call because the VAC couldn't get anything but a driver.

Who will be to blame when that time comes?

What if? What if? What if?

You can "what if" things to death and the bottom line always seems to be we respond to the call we have. We don't decline to respond so we can remain available for the call that we MAY get.

What if Engines 131 and 134 are on another FIRE call when your hypothetical structure fire comes in across town? Does it matter that the call is EMS or FIRE? It shouldn't. It's still our customer calling for help.

[10512 214]

What if? What if? What if?

You can "what if" things to death and the bottom line always seems to be we respond to the call we have. We don't decline to respond so we can remain available for the call that we MAY get.

What if Engines 131 and 134 are on another FIRE call when your hypothetical structure fire comes in across town? Does it matter that the call is EMS or FIRE? It shouldn't. It's still our customer calling for help.

Being on a Fire call is probably easier to swallow than being on an EMS call.

And, when you are on an EMS call because the powers that be think it is OK, and financially responsible, to dump the failure of the present Volunteer EMS system on the local FD's, then yes, it does matter.

A failure on one part of the system should not bring down the whole system.

And, while I am not completely up to speed on Peekskill. From what I read, they are understaffed to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I read, it seems Peekskill Firefighters may be taken out of service to go on a mutual aid EMS call to an outside jurisdiction to answer an EMS call that the original agency was unable to respond too?

If that is the case, how would that one be answered out? I am not knocking the other agencies that are having problems, but this is a chronic EMS problem through out the country, not just the Hudson Valley.

The problem is no one, be it FD/EMS supervisors, politicians or bean counters are answering this. They are playing it as a balancing act.

They are coming up with half-assed solutions to a problem that will eventually bite them in the azz. It may not happen today, or tomorrow, but it will happen.

The system is broke. It has been for a long time. It needs to be fixed.

The answer is obvious.

The answer is "pay up".

But, that will not happen until the powers that be are forced into it. The cost may be more than financial.

Edited August 6, 2014 by 10512

[N1Medic 69]

What if? What if? What if?

You can "what if" things to death and the bottom line always seems to be we respond to the call we have. We don't decline to respond so we can remain available for the call that we MAY get.

What if Engines 131 and 134 are on another FIRE call when your hypothetical structure fire comes in across town? Does it matter that the call is EMS or FIRE? It shouldn't. It's still our customer calling for help.

It DOES matter when a Peekskill Firefighter has to take his fire engine out of service, get into a flycar, respond to the neighboring jurisdiction, and ride in a call BLS because the VAC can't get an EMT.

Our whole business is based on "What If?". It matters when our customers call for help that we have the right resources available to send them in a timely manner. The problem here is that those resources are being improperly utilized. And, because of that, when our customers call,they may be waiting an dangerously long time for an ambulance or a fire apparatus to get there.

What's the long term solution to all of this?

[Monty 35]

I wonder how many firefighters staff the engines. Why does the engine go out of service if it loses it's medic? If one of the engine's is down a rider and is out of service, then the other FF(s) just get to kick back? How about combining the out of service engine with another so they have one engine in service instead of (potentially) two out of service engines?

As was mentioned, our whole business is 'What If'. It's someone's job to balance this risk of What If - and presumably based on history, the administration decides this is the best value for the buck. How much is the taxpayer willing to risk? And willing to pay?

I don't know if Peekskill falls under NFPA 1720 or 1710 - it might be interesting to see how they fare with the appropriate standard.

Yes, Peekskill may be a time bomb - but so is hurricane preparedness, Indian Point, etc. Which is the bigger one? Personally, my money is on another Sandy.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Being on a Fire call is probably easier to swallow than being on an EMS call.

And, when you are on an EMS call because the powers that be think it is OK, and financially responsible, to dump the failure of the present Volunteer EMS system on the local FD's, then yes, it does matter.

A failure on one part of the system should not bring down the whole system.

And, while I am not completely up to speed on Peekskill. From what I read, they are understaffed to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I read, it seems Peekskill Firefighters may be taken out of service to go on a mutual aid EMS call to an outside jurisdiction to answer an EMS call that the original agency was unable to respond too?

If that is the case, how would that one be answered out? I am not knocking the other agencies that are having problems, but this is a chronic EMS problem through out the country, not just the Hudson Valley.

The problem is no one, be it FD/EMS supervisors, politicians or bean counters are answering this. They are playing it as a balancing act.

They are coming up with half-assed solutions to a problem that will eventually bite them in the azz. It may not happen today, or tomorrow, but it will happen.

The system is broke. It has been for a long time. It needs to be fixed.

The answer is obvious.

The answer is "pay up".

But, that will not happen until the powers that be are forced into it. The cost may be more than financial.

You can't use EMS runs to justify your existence while at the same time saying they're less important than fire calls.

If a resource is out of service on a call, it is out of service on a call. It shouldn't be ranked by whether it was a fire call or an EMS call.

The root of the problem is - as it has been for far longer than the ALS program has been in existence - that there is only ONE guy on each engine. Maybe if the volunteers were allowed to drive this would be less of an issue.

[dave0820 50]

The problem is no one, be it FD/EMS supervisors, politicians or bean counters are answering this. They are playing it as a balancing act.

They are coming up with half-assed solutions to a problem that will eventually bite them in the azz. It may not happen today, or tomorrow, but it will happen.

The system is broke. It has been for a long time. It needs to be fixed.

The answer is obvious.

The answer is "pay up".

But, that will not happen until the powers that be are forced into it. The cost may be more than financial.

I agree with this, my opinion is the City of Peekskill Fire Department has some great people and great resources, that just aren't being used efficiently. The city isn't very large square miles wise, they have 4 pumpers, 1 rescue pumper and a ladder. I think 24 or 25 career firefighters and a large volunteer squad. The 3 Chiefs are elected and are only in office 3 years. This doesn't give the chief much time to make any changes and I'm not really sure what power he has to do so. I think Peekskill Fire Department would benefit from a full time fire chief. This position would be a liaison between the city fathers and the fire department.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) I wonder how many firefighters staff the engines. Why does the engine go out of service if it loses it's medic? If one of the engine's is down a rider and is out of service, then the other FF(s) just get to kick back? How about combining the out of service engine with another so they have one engine in service instead of (potentially) two out of service engines?

2) As was mentioned, our whole business is 'What If'. It's someone's job to balance this risk of What If - and presumably based on history, the administration decides this is the best value for the buck. How much is the taxpayer willing to risk? And willing to pay?

3) I don't know if Peekskill falls under NFPA 1720 or 1710 - it might be interesting to see how they fare with the appropriate standard.

4) Yes, Peekskill may be a time bomb - but so is hurricane preparedness, Indian Point, etc. Which is the bigger one? Personally, my money is on another Sandy.

1) they only staff with the 1 firefighter, so when he switches their is no one left on the rig.

2) Since the State has imposed a tax cap, with penalties on the community for breaking it, no one is going to spend more money to improve services, even if they know they are woefully understaffed.

3) I know of only a few in the county that even come close to meeting the standards.

4) how many depts. even prep for it? How many that have fire stations in the flood zone even know enough to get out.

[sympathomedic 383]

I will try to add some historical insight here, but I might get it a bit wrong. I have been a Corlandt "35 medic" a few years now.

The Town of Cortlandt got an ALS flycar license, set up a program and started running its system. We are NOT Town empolyees. We technically work for Hudson Valley Hospital. The Town pays HVH to pay us. That way we don't have to be at all concerned about getting any of the generous benefits that other governement employees are burdened with, like LOD injury pay, pension or insurance. It makes for pretty low budgets. The TOC library gets a bigger budget than the CRP does.

After the system began, the City of Peeksill asked if they could join. PFD had for some reason a large number of FF's who were medics. So a deal was struck that CRP would become CPRP. More gear and trucks would be bought and the two flycasrs would be deployed and staffed by the FF's from PFD, as noted peviously- engine goes OOS when it's FF needs to be a medic, AND the flycar is OOS when it's medic needs to be a fireman. I think COP pays some $$$ to TOC for cost of gear, trucks etc. $50,000/year sounds familiar. When the PFD staff are doing medical calls, they are NOT under the FD's control, and I think I recall that was their demand. They operate under the CPRP director. They are called "39 medic" since they are on a different tone-out channel, but when being a medic they opeate under the CPRP director.

Whoever is closest to the call gets it. 35 medics get called into Peekskill and 39 medics get call out Cortlandt. There can be one or two 35 and 39 medics on, so numbers can be 2-4 flycars, based on scheduleing factors. These numbers are VERY carefully monitored by COP admin, and they are always looking to avoid paying TOC using numbers as ammo, saying they do more, so should pay less. As far as medics on BLS... I have no issue with it. I was an EMT before I became a medic. My patch says EMT on it. If you need medical help, I am there for you. If you want to pay me medic pay to do BLS, that is fine. If I am not available due to that, well there are bosses to deal with that. I take care of the sick and injured. The CRP policy is that the medic on the call is to be asked if they will ride in a BLS. We can say "No". Of course that leaves the medic stranded with the pt awaiting an ambulance from somewhere.

If there is low engine availability on the PFD end due to the deal they wanted and got, then it seems the cheapest thing to do is to have COP hire civilian medics to staff those "39" trucks, or pay TOC to do it. THAT is a COP decision, and not up to the minions of EMT bravo. I doubt my brother 39 guys would be happy about it either.

They cannot run ALS ambulances as they don't have a license to do that. Empress puts ONE EMT at PVAC. PVAC is VERY busy and often has multiple calls.

[antiquefirelt 994]

For example, let's say Engine 134 was on an EMS assist at the Beach Shopping Center and Engine 131 was out of service because that firefighter was on an ALS call in Mohegan.

During this time, a structure fire with entrapment on Welcher Ave came in (the opposite end of the city). How would the Peekskill Fire Chief explain that the closest fire engine (Engine 130) was out of service because they weren't out on an ALS call, but riding in a BLS call because the VAC couldn't get anything but a driver.

One might assume that the Fire Chief has either been directed by the municipality to assist the VAC or has gotten approval to do so, in which case he'd like say that is what you get when you don't fully fund a FD. How is this any different than if the same engine is tied up on a BS run? The community generally determines the level of risk they're willing to accept vs. the costs. I get the thought process, but there is a point where many (most) communities will not fund staffed fire apparatus due to the low volume of fire calls. This outcry over a one man engine?

For many of us underfunded/understaffed FD's, you take any excuse you can to get another firefighter on shift. If I hire someone to do EMS and that occurs 2 to 3 times a day, the other 5, 8, 10, 0r 22 hours a shift I have one more on duty firefighter. That's a win in small town America. The key is being honest with the taxpayer about what their getting and the risks, ultimately they'll decide the level they are comfortable with.

I might add that in small town America where the daily fire problem is little to non-existent, a citizen in distress is an active emergency that is addressed, we don't withhold care "in case something else happens", when statistically it won't. As call volumes grow, the staff either needs to grow with it, or the second call is slower to be answered, again, at the final determination of the taxpayers. All you can do is educate them, falsely hiding your deficiencies only harms the public and the membership.

Edited August 7, 2014 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

The community generally determined the level of risk their willing to accept vs. the costs.

I find most "communities" haven't the slightest idea what level of risk they have. They do not know if the dept. is staffed or not. They see trucks parked in the station and they believe they are protected.

If the FD takes a week to respond as long as its not their home that is burning, they are ok with it.

And the costs in their mind is almost always too much. They want to pay nothing, because they know they will never need it. And they pray like made that the dept is well staffed, well trained and well equipped as they are dialing 9-1-1.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I will try to add some historical insight here, but I might get it a bit wrong. I have been a Corlandt "35 medic" a few years now.

The Town of Cortlandt got an ALS flycar license, set up a program and started running its system. We are NOT Town empolyees. We technically work for Hudson Valley Hospital. The Town pays HVH to pay us. That way we don't have to be at all concerned about getting any of the generous benefits that other governement employees are burdened with, like LOD injury pay, pension or insurance. It makes for pretty low budgets. The TOC library gets a bigger budget than the CRP does.

After the system began, the City of Peeksill asked if they could join. PFD had for some reason a large number of FF's who were medics. So a deal was struck that CRP would become CPRP. More gear and trucks would be bought and the two flycasrs would be deployed and staffed by the FF's from PFD, as noted peviously- engine goes OOS when it's FF needs to be a medic, AND the flycar is OOS when it's medic needs to be a fireman. I think COP pays some $$$ to TOC for cost of gear, trucks etc. $50,000/year sounds familiar. When the PFD staff are doing medical calls, they are NOT under the FD's control, and I think I recall that was their demand. They operate under the CPRP director. They are called "39 medic" since they are on a different tone-out channel, but when being a medic they opeate under the CPRP director.

Whoever is closest to the call gets it. 35 medics get called into Peekskill and 39 medics get call out Cortlandt. There can be one or two 35 and 39 medics on, so numbers can be 2-4 flycars, based on scheduleing factors. These numbers are VERY carefully monitored by COP admin, and they are always looking to avoid paying TOC using numbers as ammo, saying they do more, so should pay less. As far as medics on BLS... I have no issue with it. I was an EMT before I became a medic. My patch says EMT on it. If you need medical help, I am there for you. If you want to pay me medic pay to do BLS, that is fine. If I am not available due to that, well there are bosses to deal with that. I take care of the sick and injured. The CRP policy is that the medic on the call is to be asked if they will ride in a BLS. We can say "No". Of course that leaves the medic stranded with the pt awaiting an ambulance from somewhere.

If there is low engine availability on the PFD end due to the deal they wanted and got, then it seems the cheapest thing to do is to have COP hire civilian medics to staff those "39" trucks, or pay TOC to do it. THAT is a COP decision, and not up to the minions of EMT bravo. I doubt my brother 39 guys would be happy about it either.

They cannot run ALS ambulances as they don't have a license to do that. Empress puts ONE EMT at PVAC. PVAC is VERY busy and often has multiple calls.

According to some friends that were among the "first" medics in Cortlandt, the Town and hospital collaborated to start the program and there was an ALS advisory board that included Peekskill and Buchanan. The initial CON application was for the Town of Cortlandt, City of Peekskill, and Village of Buchanan. I'm told that the very first draft application was for the entire town including Croton but they objected so it was changed to the above. Peekskill was involved from the very start but didn't contribute very much to start the program.

The City became more involved after the system was up and running for a couple of years and added the 39 medics via the FD.

The initial paramedics all had the costs of the training paid by the program in exchange for their service as medics. None of the initial medics were paid. There were about 20 of them and they precepted with medics from Rockland Paramedic Services so they could get some experience with the supervision of a veteran medic.