FDNY FLIP School

[x635 4,066]

When FDNY firefighters get promoted to Lieutenant, they attend FLIP school to learn the skills of the position.

When they become Captain, Battalion Chief, etc is there additional training classes they must attend before taking on the role>

[M' Ave 1,466]

There are is a Captains Development course, I think it's a couple of weeks long. I believe there is a Chiefs Developmemt course as well, but they may go through that course before promotion or a little while after after, depending on course availablility.

[lt411 145]

I believe the course is called "FLSTP" (first-line supervisor training program. It is run by FDNY but it is for any NYS career firefighter promoted to the next up supervisory rank (usually Lieutenant, but it could be Captain or Chief, depending on the size of the dept.). When I went years ago, we had officers from Yonkers to Syracuse to Cohoes to Johnson city to Albany and buffalo. It was 4 weeks long, and the lessons were all taught in a generic manner, meaning they were relevant to any career dept., not just FDNY (there were only 2 days where the FDNY lieutenants were separated from the rest to teach specific FDNY admin matters). It was really interesting when we had a tactics class- each student had to explain to the class how they would handle a fire on the 3rd floor of a 5 story multiple dwelling. The small departments really showed us "big city" guys how they attempted to "do more with less". We all got a lot out of the class, and had a lot of laughs.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I believe the course is called "FLSTP" (first-line supervisor training program. It is run by FDNY but it is for any NYS career firefighter promoted to the next up supervisory rank (usually Lieutenant, but it could be Captain or Chief, depending on the size of the dept.). When I went years ago, we had officers from Yonkers to Syracuse to Cohoes to Johnson city to Albany and buffalo. It was 4 weeks long, and the lessons were all taught in a generic manner, meaning they were relevant to any career dept., not just FDNY (there were only 2 days where the FDNY lieutenants were separated from the rest to teach specific FDNY admin matters). It was really interesting when we had a tactics class- each student had to explain to the class how they would handle a fire on the 3rd floor of a 5 story multiple dwelling. The small departments really showed us "big city" guys how they attempted to "do more with less". We all got a lot out of the class, and had a lot of laughs.

The FDNY Lts now attend for 5 weeks, one additional after the upstate guys are done.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The FDNY Lts now attend for 5 weeks, one additional after the upstate guys are done.

As an "Upstate guy" my commute was shorter and closer to the City than any of the 45 FDNY Lt's in my class (total 60, with 15 "up staters"). Most drove 45 min to an hour each way from as far as Orange County. I'd roll out of bed and be at the rock in under 15.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The small departments really showed us "big city" guys how they attempted to "do more with less". We all got a lot out of the class, and had a lot of laughs.

When I was there we had 2 sections that forced the comparison:

1) Extrication. FDNY was just adding tools to ladder companies so they wanted to review procedures that some of the FDNY LT's had not practiced since probie school 10-15 years prior. So we di side by side cars. They worked on basic door pops, while the instructors told us to do what ever we wanted as they new we all did more extrication than any of the instructors. So we flipped one car on its roof & another on its side and had fun.

2) Floor above victim search in a tenement. This was EXCELLENT. 3 member teams sent to search for up to 6 members of a family missing on the floor above. 20 teams (15 FDNY teams, 5 "upstate teams), I was teamed with 2 members from Illion, NY. The apt. we searched was fully furnished, including bedding and clothing and empty bottles on the table. The walls were only 1/2 height and the instructors had platforms above so they could see & film our searches. at about the 10 minute mark the radio would advise that the engine on the fire floor lost water and we needed to get out. As we were evacuating we heard a pass alarm from the back of the apt. (we were previously advised that the OV from another truck was back there). We had another 3 minutes to find him and get out before the apt. "flashed".

What was most interesting as we watched the 20 teams on video we found the "Upstate" teams averaged finding 3 of the victims and the OV, plus the team got out before the apt. flashed. The FDNY teams found all 6 victims and the OV, but all 15 search teams and all victims were killed when the apt flashed.

[FirNaTine 370]

When I was there we had 2 sections that forced the comparison:

1) Extrication. FDNY was just adding tools to ladder companies so they wanted to review procedures that some of the FDNY LT's had not practiced since probie school 10-15 years prior. So we di side by side cars. They worked on basic door pops, while the instructors told us to do what ever we wanted as they new we all did more extrication than any of the instructors. So we flipped one car on its roof & another on its side and had fun.

2) Floor above victim search in a tenement. This was EXCELLENT. 3 member teams sent to search for up to 6 members of a family missing on the floor above. 20 teams (15 FDNY teams, 5 "upstate teams), I was teamed with 2 members from Illion, NY. The apt. we searched was fully furnished, including bedding and clothing and empty bottles on the table. The walls were only 1/2 height and the instructors had platforms above so they could see & film our searches. at about the 10 minute mark the radio would advise that the engine on the fire floor lost water and we needed to get out. As we were evacuating we heard a pass alarm from the back of the apt. (we were previously advised that the OV from another truck was back there). We had another 3 minutes to find him and get out before the apt. "flashed".

What was most interesting as we watched the 20 teams on video we found the "Upstate" teams averaged finding 3 of the victims and the OV, plus the team got out before the apt. flashed. The FDNY teams found all 6 victims and the OV, but all 15 search teams and all victims were killed when the apt flashed.

Very similar experiences and outcomes between both Groups! Makes you wonder!

[bad box 371]

When I was there we had 2 sections that forced the comparison:

1) Extrication. FDNY was just adding tools to ladder companies so they wanted to review procedures that some of the FDNY LT's had not practiced since probie school 10-15 years prior. So we di side by side cars. They worked on basic door pops, while the instructors told us to do what ever we wanted as they new we all did more extrication than any of the instructors. So we flipped one car on its roof & another on its side and had fun.

2) Floor above victim search in a tenement. This was EXCELLENT. 3 member teams sent to search for up to 6 members of a family missing on the floor above. 20 teams (15 FDNY teams, 5 "upstate teams), I was teamed with 2 members from Illion, NY. The apt. we searched was fully furnished, including bedding and clothing and empty bottles on the table. The walls were only 1/2 height and the instructors had platforms above so they could see & film our searches. at about the 10 minute mark the radio would advise that the engine on the fire floor lost water and we needed to get out. As we were evacuating we heard a pass alarm from the back of the apt. (we were previously advised that the OV from another truck was back there). We had another 3 minutes to find him and get out before the apt. "flashed".

What was most interesting as we watched the 20 teams on video we found the "Upstate" teams averaged finding 3 of the victims and the OV, plus the team got out before the apt. flashed. The FDNY teams found all 6 victims and the OV, but all 15 search teams and all victims were killed when the apt flashed.

Wow, the FDNY group must have been quite a collection of misfits. You were light years ahead of even the instructors in vehicle extrication and all of the FDNY guys failed the search course while you rescued 3 civilians and a downed FF. while getting yourself out safely also. I can only imagine that the entire FDNY crew were demoted or sent back through probie school after you graduated.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Very similar experiences and outcomes between both Groups! Makes you wonder!

No the outcomes were very different. We were very upset that we had on averaged missed 1/2 the victims. But learned so much from it that we would not make those mistakes again.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Wow, the FDNY group must have been quite a collection of misfits. You were light years ahead of even the instructors in vehicle extrication and all of the FDNY guys failed the search course while you rescued 3 civilians and a downed FF. while getting yourself out safely also. I can only imagine that the entire FDNY crew were demoted or sent back through probie school after you graduated.

You took this very differently than I had intended.

1st the FDNY group were the top 45 guys on a new list. 42 came from trucks, 1 rescue, 1 engine & 1 FM.

2nd. Yes in extrication we were way ahead as at the time only FDNY Rescues practiced it and NYPD ESU was responsible city-wide for it.

3rd My point (which I may have missed) was that because we operate differently we have different outcomes. The upstate depts. have no back up on search, no more truck companies and as such the upstate crews were more conservative which lead to finding fewer victims. But also ment when the time limit hit we were not as deep. I do not know if the time line was a realistic one, but it was very effective from a training perspective. The FDNY crews were more aggressive because the normally know they have more back-up, so they covered more ground and found more victims. I also think the scenario was less realistic for FDNY crews than upstaters, in you normally have more than a single 3 man search team.

[FirNaTine 370]

No the outcomes were very different. We were very upset that we had on averaged missed 1/2 the victims. But learned so much from it that we would not make those mistakes again.

Understood, but my experiences were the opposite though I did pick up a few pointers. However like you said most so called upstate Depts. don't have the reinforcements coming in like FDNY which is very true.

[16fire5 693]

To answer the original question there is a Captain's Development Course that was originally 2 weeks, was 4 by the time I went, and might now be up to 5. About a week of it focuses on the job of Captain and the rest is all about preparing Captains to be Acting Battalion Chiefs.

The Battalion Chief's command course is now 8 or 9 weeks. There is a tremendous amount of material presented on a great number of topics.

There's a class for Deputies. It's relatively new and I'm not sure the length.

[16fire5 693]

City vs. Upstate.....

So I was an upstate guy and then became an FDNY guy so I have a unique perspective. First everyone's stories are anecdotal stories about tiny samplings so taking any of the generalizations to heart is silly. QTIP might be appropriate here.

Hurst Tool. We've come a long way I guess. Let's also remember there are more than 140 ladder companies with tools and due to differences in training and actual experience results will vary. I was lucky when I was a firefighter we seemed to go to nightly car fires (anyone else remember that?) Sanitation would tag the car and we would come back the next day and practice with the tool. It was great training. Now we go to junk yards pretty much whenever we want and drill.

Here's a basic difference that hasn't been mentioned. Career Chief's academy vs. FDNY. In Westchester the class is made up of multiple departments so almost every topic is generalized because of the multitude of staffing and operational differences. For the FDNY everyone there is able to be ingrained with our procedures and way of doing business. We have the ability to be so much more specific. It's a big advantage. I'm sure since Yonkers does their own academies they realize the same benefits. For the most part my current colleagues have absolutely no concept how the rest of the world operates north of the city line.

[jd783 64]

I was in FLIP school april of 2012, our class was 30 guys 15 upstate and 15 FDNY. Avg age of the upstate guys was 40 FDNY was 30. I did notice that many of the FDNY LTs worked in 1 company for their 10-15 years on the job and have experienced only 1 neighborhood. I cannot say enough about the school, the instructors and the value of everything learned

[wraftery 1,275]

If I were able to "Beam you down, Scotty" into a room on fire and with a nozzle in your hand, I bet you couldn't tell me what city you are in. Hopefully, though, you would know what to do next.

I was promoted to first line supervisor (1977) before there was a FLIP school. That might be a good topic for discussion.

[kinkchaser 352]

A very important part of fire training is being left out and that is Chief's Training, it would stand to reason that after probie training of 229 hours ( at least) , 100 hours in service and 160 hour first line Officers course, the next logical step would have the Standards Commission mandate a Chief Officers Course, NYS law states in order to be a barber you need more than 1000 hours training and none to be a fire chief, that is crazy. This would be a good cause for the various Fire Organization to champion.

[Bnechis 3,961]

A very important part of fire training is being left out and that is Chief's Training, it would stand to reason that after probie training of 229 hours ( at least) , 100 hours in service and 160 hour first line Officers course, the next logical step would have the Standards Commission mandate a Chief Officers Course, NYS law states in order to be a barber you need more than 1000 hours training and none to be a fire chief, that is crazy. This would be a good cause for the various Fire Organization to champion.

To answer the original question there is a Captain's Development Course that was originally 2 weeks, was 4 by the time I went, and might now be up to 5. About a week of it focuses on the job of Captain and the rest is all about preparing Captains to be Acting Battalion Chiefs.

The Battalion Chief's command course is now 8 or 9 weeks. There is a tremendous amount of material presented on a great number of topics.

There's a class for Deputies. It's relatively new and I'm not sure the length.

Snotty, your point is well taken and as you can see, FDNY thinks this is important and commits about 200 hours to captains, 320-360 to BC and additional for DC's.

[wraftery 1,275]

If I were able to "Beam you down, Scotty" into a room on fire and with a nozzle in your hand, I bet you couldn't tell me what city you are in. Hopefully, though, you would know what to do next.

I was promoted to first line supervisor (1977) before there was a FLIP school. That might be a good topic for discussion.

If I were able to "Beam you down, Scotty" into a room on fire and with a nozzle in your hand, I bet you couldn't tell me what city you are in. Hopefully, though, you would know what to do next.

I was promoted to first line supervisor (1977) before there was a FLIP school. That might be a good topic for discussion.

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.

The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.

Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.

So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.

You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something

change it, but remember, these things take time.

Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."

[kinkchaser 352]

Myself and a NYFD Deputy Chief representing the Northeast Fire Consortium traveled to the National Fire Academy and requested that they develop a national chief Officers course, They told us that they needed the funding so we went to Nita Lowey and thru her office we were given $ 250,000 to develop the course, we brought the money back to the NFA and as promised they developed the course, Our goal was for a nation wide course taught thru-out the country regionally, To test it out it was offered at the NYS Fire Academy and there were few takers. ( So mandated seemed the answer)

We went to Randalls Island and met with various high ranking FDNY chiefs and they felt it was a good idea and could be taught in NYC using the FLIP school facilities when not in use, However they needed the supporting funding.

Our goal has been reduced to make it part of the mandated NYS Standards as is probie training and Flip school. Career chief candidates would be mandated to go,.while it could be made into optional week-end modules for the volunteers and taught regionally around the state.

So would this not help a new promotee who would be entering into a job he has little preparation for. Would it not increase firefighter safety by having the guy running the job knowing more of what he is doing and what an opportunity to interface with skilled folks and learning your trade as your responsibilities have dramatically increased

Again this concept should be pushed by the various fire organizations and Homeland Security. lots of training around but none dedicated to the guy running the show

[Dinosaur 844]

Are there any training requirements for fire officers in volunteer departments? I know there are required commissioner courses on the admin side but are there operational training or experiential requirements?

[kinkchaser 352]

As far as I know there are no mandated specific Chief Fire Officers Courses for Career (outside NYC) and volunteers Chiefs in NYS and most probably many other states also. Idea with the above mandated Chiefs Course for career chiefs would be a 160 hour course taught several times a year in NYC for newly promoted Chief officers / Since it is often difficult .to place mandates on volunteers, this instruction .could be done in a modular format regionally around the state. perhaps on week-ends or evening . A person beginning his ascent thru the various ranks in a volunteer outfit could have completed this course by the time he becomes exalted rule.

Hope this project can get some " kegs"

[kinkchaser 352]

Now you know I meant legs and not kegs in the above posting, if we could get kegs involved it would be a ravening success.

[RetiredDC 6]

When I was promoted to Lieutenant, January 1975, my "officer training" consisted of one sentance via the Chief of Department (who shall remain nameless) To Quote: "A good fire officer is not well liked by his men." I did not follow that advise. That was the mentallity back then.