NYPD Choke Hold Conterversy

[bad box 371]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/20/in-church-rev-al-sharpton-appeals-for-justice-in-choke-hold-death/

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

Edited July 21, 2014 by bad box

[Ga-Lin 86]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/20/in-church-rev-al-sharpton-appeals-for-justice-in-choke-hold-death/

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

Read this in the THR this morning. My question is why?

[nycmedic 65]

Watch the video and you will see why they are restricted from working in the 911 system

[Dinosaur 844]

Watch the video and you will see why they are restricted from working in the 911 system

Can you summarize? It isn't really clear to me why the EMS folks got desk duty. The cop I get it.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Can you summarize? It isn't really clear to me why the EMS folks got desk duty. The cop I get it.

Same here. I had trouble with the video

[nycmedic 65]

http://youtu.be/O0QNeu0c3rs

Watch this video.

[nycmedic 65]

I will not elaborate what the crew did wrong on a public forum

[99subi 121]

Can you summarize? It isn't really clear to me why the EMS folks got desk duty. The cop I get it.

Its pretty obvious even to a lay person. i mean they didn't do much...

[bad box 371]

Can you summarize? It isn't really clear to me why the EMS folks got desk duty. The cop I get it.

The video only shows EMS personnel with the patient for a short time, but EMT's and Paramedics have protocols that they must follow immediately upon reaching the side of a patient (once they have assured the scene is safe). Most or all of the initial steps that should have been taken were not.

[FireMedic049 597]

I definitely think they (the EMS personnel) could've handled the situation better, however the video appears to me to be ambiguous at best as to whether or not the pt had a pulse or was breathing. The only thing that was clear was that the guy needed medical attention in some fashion. If their assessment was that he was breathing and had a pulse, then the administration of CPR would in all likelihood not be appropriate. They certainly could've had a little more pep in their step, but the patient was on the stretcher and on the way to the ambulance within a few of minutes contact by EMS. Again, if their assessment was that he was breathing and had a pulse, going to the ambulance rather than initiating care right there was the appropriate call IMO. Now, if their assessment was that he wasn't breathing and/or didn't have a pulse, then initiating care on the spot would've been the right thing to do.

Its pretty obvious even to a lay person. i mean they didn't do much...

I think the only thing clearly obvious to a lay person was that the guy appeared to be in need of medical care in some fashion since he was unconscious. The average lay person is often ignorant to exactly what care a patient needs on scene and what care EMS can actually provide at that point. I know I frequently encounter patients, family or bystanders who question why we aren't just putting the patient in the ambulance and driving to the hospital. The average lay person also often thinks that their medical needs or that of another person are more of an "emergency" than it actually is and this feeds the belief that EMS should be doing "more" to treat the patient, when in fact they may be doing everything they can within their scope of practice or the patient's condition only merits "minimal" care.

I think the video is a little less murky to the trained eye in that the initial assessment could have definitely been performed better, but it still fails to definitively answer the questions "is he breathing" and "does he have a pulse". We can only assume the answer to both questions was "yes" since they didn't immediately start CPR.

Without knowing all of the details, it's hard to say whether or not any or all of the suspensions for the 4 EMS providers were appropriate, but I think the speed in which they occurred were a PR move first (damage control) and a patient care issue second. The public often sees what they want to see in these situations, particularly when their is racial component (real or perceived) and want immediate action and far too often, management et al are too willing to bow down to that pressure and take punitive actions with incomplete information and in violation of the employees right to "due process".

[bad box 371]

EMTs and paramedics who responded to Eric Garner have been suspended without pay by hospital:

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/emts_and_paramedics_who_respon.html

[Ga-Lin 86]

EMTs and paramedics who responded to Eric Garner have been suspended without pay by hospital:

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/emts_and_paramedics_who_respon.html

Link doesn't work

[Dinosaur 844]

The video only shows EMS personnel with the patient for a short time, but EMT's and Paramedics have protocols that they must follow immediately upon reaching the side of a patient (once they have assured the scene is safe). Most or all of the initial steps that should have been taken were not.

Thank you!

[bad box 371]

Link doesn't work

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/emts_and_paramedics_who_respon.html

[210 91]

Can you summarize? It isn't really clear to me why the EMS folks got desk duty. The cop I get it.

You get it? 300 lb pissed off dude "Hey bud, you need to come with me ok?" " Sure officer, no problem. I'd put my hands behind my back but I'm to big to handcuffed in the rear unless you have two sets of cuffs handy" Pick a scenario. Tasers? Not an option on Staten Island. Shoot the perp? Not a good idea. Maybe wait for K9, but thats inhumane. What's the answer? No matter what you do, you lose. Yes let's put cameras on all our officers, that will solve everything. How about holding each and every citizen responsible for their actions to in include showing their ass on a public sidewalk, street etc. LEOs aren't

perfect and there's some bad apples out there but the morales of society suck and it's out of control.

Edited July 23, 2014 by 210

[Dinosaur 844]

You get it? 300 lb pissed off dude "Hey bud, you need to come with me ok?" " Sure officer, no problem. I'd put my hands behind my back but I'm to big to handcuffed in the rear unless you have two sets of cuffs handy" Pick a scenario. Tasers? Not an option on Staten Island. Shoot the perp? Not a good idea. Maybe wait for K9, but thats inhumane. What's the answer? No matter what you do, you lose. Yes let's put cameras on all our officers, that will solve everything. How about holding each and every citizen responsible for their actions to in include showing their ass on a public sidewalk, street etc. LEOs aren't

perfect and there's some bad apples out there but the morales of society suck and it's out of control.

I get that he's being investigated and is on modified duty. Same with any police involved shooting, right? Standard procedure.

What I didn't get - until someone explained it to me - was why the EMS folks got suspended.

If you took from my comment that I was siding with the suspect you're just wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that people need to be held accountable and be responsible for their own actions.

[AFS1970 504]

Let's not forget that in so many similar cases the news media edits the video to show you the most incriminating 5 seconds of a 20 minute video. A court in Florida recently rules that news media editing like this is not libel. I read an article years ago about a very high profile case, where an expert witness was brought in to testify against the police. He, like everyone else in the nation, had seen the footage shown on the news. After watching the whole unedited video, he refused to testify against the police, went to their lawyer and became their expert witness for free.

You get it? 300 lb pissed off dude "Hey bud, you need to come with me OK?" " Sure officer, no problem. I'd put my hands behind my back but I'm to big to handcuffed in the rear unless you have two sets of cuffs handy" Pick a scenario. Tasers? Not an option on Staten Island. Shoot the perp? Not a good idea. Maybe wait for K9, but that's inhumane. What's the answer? No matter what you do, you lose. Yes let's put cameras on all our officers, that will solve everything. How about holding each and every citizen responsible for their actions to in include showing their ass on a public sidewalk, street etc. LEO's aren't perfect and there's some bad apples out there but the morals of society suck and it's out of control.

Cameras will not solve anything. First of all there was a camera in this case and the public is still up in arms. How did the presence of the video help the suspect? The police officers did what they did, right or wrong the camera did not seem to have any effect on this. There is still a dead suspect, although I can't help but think there were other factors beyond control of the police or EMS that played into the end result. The NYPD commissioner says that he expects the entire department to go through retraining. I always laugh at this. The news is reporting that choke holds are not allowed. So if (and only if) this is a case of excessive force, how will a class about following an existing rule that was not followed help the situation? I am pretty sure there are already classes in that. How about a class for the public on how not to sell bootleg cigarettes or DVD's or illegal drugs? Maybe pass a new law that says you still have to follow all the other laws we already have?

From the video footage I have seen I saw the EMS workers check the pulse and do some sort of assessment. Of course the video does not show what care occurred int he Ambulance, but that is irrelevant to the pro-criminal crowd, who make a living stirring up local communities against the police.

What I did get from the video is someone who was about to be arrested and when the cuffs came out, resisted being cuffed. When officers tried to restrain him, he turned away and probably would have tried to run if he were not outnumbered and 300 pounds. I will be willing to say that had he been compliant during the arrest, he would be alive today. Not only that but EMS would not have been needed and we would not be talking about 4 EMS members being suspended.

I do have to laugh (in a sort of sad way) at the reporters that have not stopped using as some sort of damning evidence that the suspect kept saying he could not breath. Last time I checked it took breathing to talk. This is just like the parent that says their baby isn't breathing and you can hear the baby crying. I can't speak to the effectiveness of respiration, but I do not that if you can talk to me you are breathing. This is the same theory behind not doing the Heimlich maneuver on someone who says they are choking, only on someone who isn't speaking and is holding their throat in the "international choking sign". You would think that every channel would get one of their semi-doctors or even Dr. Oz to explain this to them before they go on the air.

[swat517 2]

IDK I'm tired of hearing about it! Not ever can you say to an officer of the law "please leave me alone" and not at least have to come in for questioning. If he didn't resist the 2 officers they wouldn't have felt a need to escalate to 7 etc. and the EMS/EMT's have to treat everyone in need and Messed up the situation for everybody involved.

[wedgeclose 59]

somebody is going to be indited for this..and i think it is absolutely correct. i am not saying that the guy may have been guilty of something minor...but....when our hero #99 decided to go macho (only when he had lots of back-up) and grind the poor guys head into the ground the line was crossed. he did himself no favors by mocking in the background. the blimp uniforms knew something was wrong..but they didn't have the guts to admit it. how come the uniforms were left holding him down. it was the plainclothes goons who did the dirty work.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Goons? Blimp uniforms? Didn't have the guts to admit it? What's your problem with the police? They're doing a tough job under miserable conditions and you're calling them goons? That's just messed up!

I saw another video on the news this morning about some crazy carjacker in Colorado being taken down on the highway by a cop who used the same technique to bring the guy down - arm around the neck. There are not a lot of other/better options to take down a guy especially one who's 6'5 and 300+ pounds without using significant force (like taking out a knee or two). Martial artists learn that where the head goes the body follows so here we are.......

[BFD1054 1,552]

Video surfaces of choke hold incident in East Harlem, days before the Garner incident....

From CBS news;

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/23/video-purportedly-shows-another-nypd-officer-using-chokehold-on-suspect-in-east-harlem/

I am not a police officer, therefore I do not know proper procedures. However, I was under the impression that officers may use whatever force neccisary to place a suspect in custody, including punches/kicks.

I was not at either incident, none of us were. There's always two sides to a story and there's the truth. I am certainly pro law enforcement and feel the LEOs face danger every tour they work. They have to do what they have to do to get the job done and go home safe. If you are actively resisting arrest, then you should expect that force will be used against you!

Edited July 24, 2014 by BFD1054

[Officer Ed 59]

This entire incident is just another case of lying media sensationalism. The FACTS are:

The officer did NOT put Garner in a "choke hold." He put him in a NECK RESTRAINT. Most officers are trained in the use of manual neck restraints. The restraint, or "neck hold" does NOT "choke" the suspect or restrict the airway in any way. The arm is positioned such that the airway is in the "crook" of the elbow and has an inch or two of room. Any pressure is applied to the sides of the neck only.

Garner was morbidly obese. He had asthma. He was quite likely on drugs. He died of a heart attack when he over-stressed his body by resisting arrest and fighting with police. Garner was hardly "murdered", as many NY blacks are claiming. He basically killed himself by making the conscious decision to fight with police despite his medical conditions.

It's just a shame that so many gullible readers fell for the sensationalism.

[Officer Ed 59]

What I did get from the video is someone who was about to be arrested and when the cuffs came out, resisted being cuffed. When officers tried to restrain him, he turned away and probably would have tried to run if he were not outnumbered and 300 pounds. I will be willing to say that had he been compliant during the arrest, he would be alive today. Not only that but EMS would not have been needed and we would not be talking about 4 EMS members being suspended.

I do have to laugh (in a sort of sad way) at the reporters that have not stopped using as some sort of damning evidence that the suspect kept saying he could not breath. Last time I checked it took breathing to talk. This is just like the parent that says their baby isn't breathing and you can hear the baby crying. I can't speak to the effectiveness of respiration, but I do not that if you can talk to me you are breathing. This is the same theory behind not doing the Heimlich maneuver on someone who says they are choking, only on someone who isn't speaking and is holding their throat in the "international choking sign". You would think that every channel would get one of their semi-doctors or even Dr. Oz to explain this to them before they go on the air.

1. Garner was not put in a "choke hold." That terminology is only used by the lying, sensationalizing media. He was put in a "carotid neck hold", which many police officers are trained in. The neck hold does NOT "choke" the suspect or restrict the airway at all. The neck hold is an alternative to using a baton or punching a resisting suspect and it has prevented thousands of injuries to suspects and officers.

2. Garner was morbidly obese and had asthma. He may have been on drugs. He overstressed his body by resisting arrest and fighting with the police. THAT caused him to suffer a heart attack, not anything the officer did.

3. He kept repeating "I can't breath" because he was having a heart attack, not because of anything the officer did.

The media is sleazy. They will change facts, omit facts, and outright LIE to sensationalize stories like this. Look at all the omissions and lies they initially made in the Trayvon Martin case. It's almost like they are trying to incite race riots and violence against the police.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Officer Ed

[swat517 2]

Video surfaces of choke hold incident in East Harlem, days before the Garner incident....

From CBS news;

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/23/video-purportedly-shows-another-nypd-officer-using-chokehold-on-suspect-in-east-harlem/

I am not a police officer, therefore I do not know proper procedures. However, I was under the impression that officers may use whatever force neccisary to place a suspect in custody, including punches/kicks.

I was not at either incident, none of us were. There's always two sides to a story and there's the truth. I am certainly pro law enforcement and feel the LEOs face danger every tour they work. They have to do what they have to do to get the job done and go home safe. If you are actively resisting arrest, then you should expect that force will be used against you!

If they got one handcuff on and not the other then there must have been resistance during the arrest³....

[Viper 139]

The death was just ruled a homicide. How could it be a homicide? The death wasn't intentional. At the very most wouldn't it be manslaughter? If any of our LEO friends can elaborate on how this constitute a homicide it would be appreciated.

[INIT915 1,119]

The death was just ruled a homicide. How could it be a homicide? The death wasn't intentional. At the very most wouldn't it be manslaughter? If any of our LEO friends can elaborate on how this constitute a homicide it would be appreciated.

First, let me say, I am not commenting on this specific case, rather in generalities which have a connection to this case.

Medical Examiner determinations are very different from legal/police definitions.

Medical Examiners generally have five classifications (there is a sixth in New York City).

Natural

Suicide

Homicide

Accident

Undetermined (Rarely used when none of four above can truly be determined, despite all best efforts)

(NYC Only: Complication of Therapeutic or Diagnostic Procedures)

Homicide from a Medical Examiners perspective means ‘‘occurs when death results from...’’ an injury or poisoning or

from ‘‘...a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death. Intent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide.’’

It merely means the death was caused by another person. Not all deaths caused by another person meet the legal/penal law definition of homicide. Here is the perfect example. A guy breaks into your house and you shoot him dead. The Medical Examiner classification for that is homicide, as it was caused by another person (you). However, from a legal perspective, you had the law on you side and you committed no legal violation whatsoever. The two areas are often conflated, but they are essentially only tangentially related.

Another interesting exception exists with DWI fatalities. But that's another story.

[Dinosaur 844]

1. Garner was not put in a "choke hold." That terminology is only used by the lying, sensationalizing media. He was put in a "carotid neck hold", which many police officers are trained in. The neck hold does NOT "choke" the suspect or restrict the airway at all. The neck hold is an alternative to using a baton or punching a resisting suspect and it has prevented thousands of injuries to suspects and officers.

A few of us old retired types are having a few adult beverages last night when the topic turned to this incident. Two retired NYPD friends said that this was NOT a carotid neck hold. In NY that has been designated deadly physical force and couldn't have been used unless deadly physical force was authorized. They went on to say that that is a two arm technique and wasn't what you see in that video and nobody in NYPD trains on it.

They said headlocks were the only way to get some people under control and if they ban them there will be big problems.

Now don't kill the messenger. I'm only sharing some expert opinion from some boys in blue!

[Medic5274 45]

It was deemed a homicide by the medical examiner only at this time. The ME definition of a homicide is different from a criminal indictment of homicide.

It will be up to the District Attorney as to whether he will present a charge of homicide or a lesser charge to a Grand Jury who will ultimately decide what level of charge to indict the officer if they so choose. The DA may elect not to pursue any charges after reviewing all the details but that is unlikely due to the sensitivity and publicity surrounding the case

[AFS1970 504]

Regardless of the different definitions (which is something that probably needs to change) the fact is that the court of public opinion has just been incorrectly told that several police officers are murderers. This is beyond stupid. First of all it has tainted most if not all of any potential jury pool. Secondly it has undermined the trust and confidence in the police department. I have no doubt that this cause was picked out prior to the autopsy. It was 100% politically motivated. The powers that be will sacrifice a few cops and EMT's to prevent the professional warmongers, who will roll into town, from inciting a riot.

[fac911 33]

Edited August 5, 2014 by fac911